SARS CoV-2 coronavirus / Covid-19 (No tin foil hat silliness please)

[Shakesy]

@Shakesey
@Traub

I remember hearing a South African primary care doc talking about the clinical presentation of omicron and that loss of taste/smell wasn’t really a feature. I’m sure you know loads of people who’ve picked it up recently. Is this holding true for them?

Weirdly, losing my taste/smell is currently my biggest personal fear when it comes to covid.

It's odd, but despite knowing many who have tested positive this year, only a handful have lost both senses of taste and smell. As for the current wave, only one old guy I know lost it (but I only know about 6 who've tested positive this time around).

The taste/smell thing is mind-boggling. Could you perhaps explain medically how this can happen? A friend of mine who lives in Ukraine hasn't been able to taste his favorite thing (garlic) for 6 months! He also love/loved steak, but it just doesn't taste the same for him anymore. In fact, he says it sickens him now.

 

[choccy77]

Say what you will about Brexit, but not being tied to Brussels, has really given the UK an advantage / headstart on vaccinations and it's crazy to think this time last year, some large countries were refusing to use some vaccines.

 

[Shakesy]

@Pogue Mahone

I'll let you know how I experience Omicron in about a week. My mother-in-law is turning 60 and there is a huge party. Indoors. And I can't get out of it without risking horrible marital complications.

It would be cool if I lost my sense of taste for broccoli. Then I'd finally be able to eat it.

 

[Tarrou]

Say what you will about Brexit, but not being tied to Brussels, has really given the UK an advantage / headstart on vaccinations and it's crazy to think this time last year, some large countries were refusing to use some vaccines.

I thought this was dubunked?

 

[SilentWitness]

I’m no expert but reckon the chances of catching covid from a xmas present are vanishingly small. Just be careful not to cough/sneeze on them, wash your hands before wrapping them up and you’ll be grand.

Cheers, that's what we assumed. We have put them in a bag away from us for about a week just in case.

Don't lick the envelopes of any cards you write!

 

[11101]

I thought this was dubunked?

It was, repeatedly.

 

[P-Ro]

Use ffp2/3

Yeah, I went today and used a new high-grade mask for the occasion. It's sensible to do it.

Thank you for reminding me. I found a couple of kn95s at my local independent pharmacy (superdrug and boots had run out). It's weird how I tend to overthink things like going to a vaccination centre way too much and yet upgrading my mask didn't even cross my mind. I'm such an idiot.

 

[africanspur]

Say what you will about Brexit, but not being tied to Brussels, has really given the UK an advantage / headstart on vaccinations and it's crazy to think this time last year, some large countries were refusing to use some vaccines.

What are you talking about?

 

[P-Ro]

As we have covid and we’re planning to give people Christmas gifts, what’s the best course of action for them? Sanitise them / quarantine? Anyone with experience know how to make them as safe as possible aka how long to quarantine for etc.

The earlier variants were unlikely to survive on surfaces after 72 hours. No idea about this new one though.

 

[jojojo]

Useful Twitter thread on the LFTs in use in the UK. In particular, on timing - with the onset speed of Omicron and the possibility that it has a short incubation period - don't rely on a morning test for a nighttime party.

Incidentally this confirms the feeling I already had about test timing. Asking for test results from a test in the past two days as a condition for entry to an event or whatever is pretty irrelevant.



Just to emphasise the timing thing:

 

[0le]

Useful Twitter thread on the LFTs in use in the UK. In particular, on timing - with the onset speed of Omicron and the possibility that it has a short incubation period - don't rely on a morning test for a nighttime party.

Incidentally this confirms the feeling I already had about test timing. Asking for test results from a test in the past two days as a condition for entry to an event or whatever is pretty irrelevant.

Why do so many people use Twitter to have long conversations? It baffles me. It is surely easier to just make a single FB post or YouTube channel to air your view on the topic?

 

[Ferguson’s Hairdryer]

Don’t know if it means anything.
Germany had 50000 daily infections yesterday, and deaths are around 450, can imaging hospitalisations are in the 1000s.

 

[P-Ro]

Why do so many people use Twitter to have long conversations? It baffles me. It is surely easier to just make a single FB post or YouTube channel to air your view on the topic?

Because twitter is a far better platform at getting your views across to as many people as possible. If he wrote this on Facebook then I doubt we would be reading it in this thread.

 

[choccy77]

I thought this was dubunked?

No it wasn't.

European Union delayed ordering vaccines and then refused to approve the Oxford one for a month or two after we had been using it.

It's why europe is behind in vaccination role outs compared to the UK drive

 

[Penna]

I hate you. I spent a totally unreasonable amount of time going through this sub yesterday, and the first thing I did this morning was checking the updates

But yeah, the stories are remarkably similar with always the same memes and the same quotes of the same people. "Candeath" and her ilk are doing their best to kill of MAGAs, ironically.

It wil become a favourite of yours very quickly! Actually, it's a great little community on there. They did a "donate a vaccine" thing a while back and raised $55,000 to buy vaccines for developing countries. They've also raise money for one of the sub members who needed oxygen equipment and couldn't afford it.

 

[Pexbo]

Why do so many people use Twitter to have long conversations? It baffles me. It is surely easier to just make a single FB post or YouTube channel to air your view on the topic?

Facebook is a toxic waste ground. Absolutely nothing is easier about Facebook. I know Twitter isn’t much better but Facebook is a hell hole that should be avoided at all costs - totally different audiences.

 

[Revan]

Say what you will about Brexit, but not being tied to Brussels, has really given the UK an advantage / headstart on vaccinations and it's crazy to think this time last year, some large countries were refusing to use some vaccines.

It has a higher death rate compared to other European large countries (like Italy, Germany, France, Spain) and a lower vaccination rate, in addition to most of vaccines used being worse than those in the EU.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Useful Twitter thread on the LFTs in use in the UK. In particular, on timing - with the onset speed of Omicron and the possibility that it has a short incubation period - don't rely on a morning test for a nighttime party.

Incidentally this confirms the feeling I already had about test timing. Asking for test results from a test in the past two days as a condition for entry to an event or whatever is pretty irrelevant.



Just to emphasise the timing thing:

Hmmm. That seems a little… neurotic?

There was always going to be a moment in time when a test transitions from positive to negative. I always assumed that this moment occurred with a relatively low viral load and you would need to be testing positive for a day or two before you become a meaningful risk of infecting anyone else. And that’s assuming someone who is completely asymptomatic is an infection risk anyway (debatable)

Taking that twitter thread to its logical conclusion we all should all be insisting on hourly LFTs for everyone present at the Christmas dinner table!

 

[choccy77]

It has a higher death rate compared to other European large countries (like Italy, Germany, France, Spain) and a lower vaccination rate, in addition to most of vaccines used being worse than those in the EU.

Agreed and that is where we failed compared to Europe, by not locking down fast enough, plus I would say aside from Italy, we have perhaps the country with the most oldest and underlying ill patients, hence the high death rate. Which is different than the vaccine drive which we still lead compared to most of European countries, if reports are accurate.

 

[P-Ro]

It has a higher death rate compared to other European large countries (like Italy, Germany, France, Spain) and a lower vaccination rate, in addition to most of vaccines used being worse than those in the EU.

Really? I thought we had a comparable adult vaccination rate but our statistics also cover 12-18 year olds whilst the other European countries only report 18+.

 

[Penna]

It has a higher death rate compared to other European large countries (like Italy, Germany, France, Spain) and a lower vaccination rate, in addition to most of vaccines used being worse than those in the EU.

Yes, the advantage hasn't actually translated into the figures, as far as I can see. I don't know about other European countries, but AZ isn't used at all now in Italy and hasn't been for some time. I remember it being there in May when I had my first vaccination, by the time I went back in June there was no-one waiting for AZ.

Went for my booster yesterday and they were only offering Pfizer and Moderna, and some people there were coming for their first jabs.

 

[africanspur]

No it wasn't.

European Union delayed ordering vaccines and then refused to approve the Oxford one for a month or two after we had been using it.

It's why europe is behind in vaccination role outs compared to the UK drive

'Europe' (of which we are a part) or more accurately the EU is not behind in their vaccination role out. Multiple countries in the EU have now overtaken the EU in vaccination coverage, both in terms of just adults and also including teenagers/kids etc.

There may be an argument that if we were still part of the EU, we would not have wanted to deal with the political fallout of deciding to order vaccines alone BUT there is nothing in EU law to say that individual countries could not do so.

So even if we had still been in the EU and even if we had decided to be part of the collective purchasing system (which we could have opted out of), we could then have still made the decision to purchase vaccines independently of those orders and still made the decision to authorise those vaccines before the EMA did.

Other than Russia, we have the most cases and deaths of any European country, though the differences are no longer as high as they were previously.

We are also nowhere near the 2nd oldest population in Europe.

 

[jojojo]

Facebook is a toxic waste ground. Absolutely nothing is easier about Facebook. I know Twitter isn’t much better but Facebook is a hell hole that should be avoided at all costs - totally different audiences.

Twitter has serious journalists like
https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch
They post there because they get a kind of payback not just in terms of clicks on the FT website. They run into professional scientists, statisticians, vaccine specialists, hospital doctors, epidemiologists etc.

Like the algorithms that drive Facebook, the algorithms that drive Twitter let them find each other and feed off each other. It looks messy when you see people go for the mass multitweet structure. Oddly enough though, that gives other people chance to question a particular graph or a particular remark, not that different to what goes on in their working lives really. So for the ones regularly involved it's not weird at all.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

It has a higher death rate compared to other European large countries (like Italy, Germany, France, Spain) and a lower vaccination rate, in addition to most of vaccines used being worse than those in the EU.

Not entirely true. If you look at excess deaths per 100k population then Italy is on 280 - Oct 3rd, Spain is on 241 - Nov 21st and the UK is on 213 - Nov 28th.

That said, I think that the UK should comparing against countries like The Netherlands, Germany and France etc which are wealthier and less corrupt than the Southern European nations. In which case the UK death rate is the worst.

UK - 213 - Nov 28th
Belgium - 192 - Nov 28th
Netherlands - 179 - Dec 5th
France - 131 - Nov 7th
Germany - 118 - Nov 28th

https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/coronavirus-excess-deaths-tracker

 

[Shakesy]

Yes, the advantage hasn't actually translated into the figures, as far as I can see. I don't know about other European countries, but AZ isn't used at all now in Italy and hasn't been for some time. I remember it being there in May when I had my first vaccination, by the time I went back in June there was no-one waiting for AZ.

Went for my booster yesterday and they were only offering Pfizer and Moderna, and some people there were coming for their first jabs.

Do you actually get to choose between the two?

 

[jojojo]

Hmmm. That seems a little… neurotic?

There was always going to be a moment in time when a test transitions from positive to negative. I always assumed that this moment occurred with a relatively low viral load and you would need to be testing positive for a day or two before you become a meaningful risk of infecting anyone else. And that’s assuming someone who is completely asymptomatic is an infection risk anyway (debatable)

Taking that twitter thread to its logical conclusion we all should all be insisting on hourly LFTs for everyone present at the Christmas dinner table!

I take it more as a reminder that if you want to visit granny tomorrow morning - test yourself tomorrow morning.

 

[Revan]

Really? I thought we had a comparable adult vaccination rate but our statistics also cover 12-18 year olds whilst the other European countries only report 18+.

You are right, it is actually comparable, not lagging behind.

Germany: 138M vaccines given (69.9% fully vaxed)
UK: 123M vaccines given (69.7% fully vaxed, but I guess counting from 12+ instead of 18+)
France: 114M vaccines given (71.6% fully vaxed)
Italy: 103M vaccines given (74.5% fully vaxed)

Bear in mind that EU countries are almost not using AZ at all. They used a bit in the beginning, but since May, they have not used it at all, and have been using almost exclusively Pfizer and Moderna. Despite the 'my vaccine is better than yours', the data has been clear that mRNA vaccines are far better than AZ/J&J.

Which is probably why UK now having more cases despite having a similar/higher rate of vaccination.

 

[Buster15]

How typical is it that Professor Chris Whitty is having to answer questions to a group of MPs for his comments yesterday.
Not sure of others views, but I strongly believe that his professional advice had continually been ignored, or watered down by Boris to suit his personal agenda.

 

[11101]

Agreed and that is where we failed compared to Europe, by not locking down fast enough, plus I would say aside from Italy, we have perhaps the country with the most oldest and underlying ill patients, hence the high death rate. Which is different than the vaccine drive which we still lead compared to most of European countries, if reports are accurate.

They started first but that's about it. They now lag most major European countries in coverage, and many people in those early days were given an inferior AZ vaccine in a rush to get needles in arms.

Germany or Italy have the oldest population in Europe, depending on which statistic you use. The UK actually has the youngest population of any of the major countries.

Do you actually get to choose between the two?

No, it's what is available on the day. When I got mine it was Moderna for the booster and Pfizer for kids getting their first doses.

 

[FootballHQ]

Sorry, typo - that should have said the start of December. I'll edit the post.

The autumn stats have tracked things like school halfterm and changes in the weather - plus big changes in mobility. Adult case rates were pretty static with the big swings taking place in school students, which tended to drag parent age people along behind them. Now it's on the rise starting from young adults (where case rates peaked in July then started falling) and presumably it will ripple out into other groups over the next couple of weeks.

Just the story of the virus over last two years really. Just when you think there's light at the end of the tunnel it gets a little darker very quickly.

Summer/Autumn was relatively positive on the whole for living "normally" so I think if this is the last dangerous variant (big IF of course) then perhaps this is the most disrupted winter we'll have in the next 5 years.

Or I'll probably be wrong on that theory like most other predictions since Jan 2020...

 

[Buster15]

You are right, it is actually comparable, not lagging behind.

Germany: 138M vaccines given
UK: 123M vaccines given
France: 114M vaccines given
Italy: 103M vaccines given

Bear in mind that EU countries are almost not using AZ at all. They used a bit in the beginning, but since May, they have not used it at all, and have been using almost exclusively Pfizer and Moderna. Despite the 'my vaccine is better than yours', the data has been clear that mRNA vaccines are far better than AZ/J&J.

Which is probably why UK now having more cases despite having a higher rate of vaccination.

Interesting.
This childish 'pissing competition' by our equally childish PM about how fantastic we are doing in the UK compared to Europe simply doesn't wash.
And is wholly inaccurate.
But accuracy of the facts and Boris don't mix.

 

[jojojo]

You are right, it is actually comparable, not lagging behind.

Germany: 138M vaccines given
UK: 123M vaccines given
France: 114M vaccines given
Italy: 103M vaccines given

Bear in mind that EU countries are almost not using AZ at all. They used a bit in the beginning, but since May, they have not used it at all, and have been using almost exclusively Pfizer and Moderna. Despite the 'my vaccine is better than yours', the data has been clear that mRNA vaccines are far better than AZ/J&J.

Which is probably why UK now having more cases despite having a higher rate of vaccination.

AZ mostly disappeared as a first dose option in April in the UK, as it wasn't in use with the under 40s. It's only really been used since then for second doses or for people reckoned to be allergic to an ingredient in the mRNA vaccines.

The biggest single factor in waning for the UK was timing. Almost all over 70s were double vaxxed by the end of April. That meant we started to see it impact hospital/deaths figures a month or so behind Israel raising the alarm.

The booster program was already scheduled, but not to run at the pace that is had to. They certainly hadn't expected to need to rush to boost the Pfizer vaccinated under 40s, or the ones who'd had a second dose 3 months earlier.

It suddenly became the third dose that appeared in the contingency plan and that we'd bought enough stock for, not a nice to have booster to help the oldies.

 

[africanspur]

You are right, it is actually comparable, not lagging behind.

Germany: 138M vaccines given (69.9% fully vaxed)
UK: 123M vaccines given (69.7% fully vaxed, but I guess counting from 12+ instead of 18+)
France: 114M vaccines given (71.6% fully vaxed)
Italy: 103M vaccines given (74.5% fully vaxed)

Bear in mind that EU countries are almost not using AZ at all. They used a bit in the beginning, but since May, they have not used it at all, and have been using almost exclusively Pfizer and Moderna. Despite the 'my vaccine is better than yours', the data has been clear that mRNA vaccines are far better than AZ/J&J.

Which is probably why UK now having more cases despite having a similar/higher rate of vaccination.

I mean, the difference is not that great really is it? Yesterday the UK had 78k cases, France 65K, Germany 55K. A couple of days before that, UK 59, France 63, Germany 41. Belgium 10k, Netherlands 12k etc etc. And that's often with those countries having far stricter measures than the UK. Denmark had almost 9k cases yesterday by the way, which scaled up is higher than those other countries.

There's been a lot of strange dick measuring about this kind of thing all throughout. My vaccine is better than yours, these measures are better than yours. I remember when Delta first went through the UK (likely before the rest of Europe/Israel etc due to the UK's much closer link to India), there seemed to be a bit of back patting on here about how classic it was for the UK to get hit, how this showed the inadequacy of AZ vs pfizer etc etc.

Of course, delta ended up tearing through those other countries eventually in the same way too.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

I mean, the difference is not that great really is it? Yesterday the UK had 78k cases, France 65K, Germany 55K. A couple of days before that, UK 59, France 63, Germany 41. Belgium 10k, Netherlands 12k etc etc. And that's often with those countries having far stricter measures than the UK. Denmark had almost 9k cases yesterday by the way, which scaled up is higher than those other countries.

There's been a lot of strange dick measuring about this kind of thing all throughout. My vaccine is better than yours, these measures are better than yours. I remember when Delta first went through the UK (likely before the rest of Europe/Israel etc due to the UK's much closer link to India), there seemed to be a bit of back patting on here about how classic it was for the UK to get hit, how this showed the inadequacy of AZ vs pfizer etc etc.

Of course, delta ended up tearing through those other countries eventually in the same way too.

The other point to note is that the UK carries out more tests than any other country in the world so case rates will be higher because of that. The link below is from the start of the pandemic so I don't know what testing rates are like across countries right now.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104645/covid19-testing-rate-select-countries-worldwide/

I know that last time people were getting hysterical and dick waving about UK case rates the actual transmission rate was higher in Germany.

 

[Bilbo]

Work Xmas party tonight - can't decide whether to attend or not. I've been flip-flopping on it all morning

 

[FrankDrebin]

These PCR test results are taking a aaaage or it feels it is anyway.
Bored out of my brain.

 

[RoadTrip]

Thank you for reminding me. I found a couple of kn95s at my local independent pharmacy (superdrug and boots had run out). It's weird how I tend to overthink things like going to a vaccination centre way too much and yet upgrading my mask didn't even cross my mind. I'm such an idiot.

And what’s probably funny too is that you probably didn’t think about the fact you didn’t have an upgraded mask when going to buy said upgraded mask in a location which probably had a greater risk of catching Covid vs the vaccination centre you were buying the upgraded mask whilst wearing a non-upgraded mask for.

I’ve definitely cocked that up somewhere

 

[Traub]

@Shakesey
@Traub

I remember hearing a South African primary care doc talking about the clinical presentation of omicron and that loss of taste/smell wasn’t really a feature. I’m sure you know loads of people who’ve picked it up recently. Is this holding true for them?

Weirdly, losing my taste/smell is currently my biggest personal fear when it comes to covid.

Yip, anecdotally not a single person I know who has recently gotten covid has loss of taste or smell. The symptoms are pretty straightforward and consistent with all the cases: wake up with a scratchy throat, have a sore throat and slight cough for 3-4 days, covid over. My friend got covid about a week ago and she’s already better - she said it was basically like a very mild cold, nothing that couldn’t be dealt with with a couple of strepsils.

 

[Drifter]

Thomas Frank: Brentford boss wants Premier League and League Cup games called off

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/59679767

 

[P-Ro]

And what’s probably funny too is that you probably didn’t think about the fact you didn’t have an upgraded mask when going to buy said upgraded mask in a location which probably had a greater risk of catching Covid vs the vaccination centre you were buying the upgraded mask whilst wearing a non-upgraded mask for.

I’ve definitely cocked that up somewhere

I did actually consider if I'm making matters worse by doing so but I went there an hour after opening and they were all practically empty. I'm still really anxious about this booster I'm having in 90mins. I moved back home to help my Mum because she's undergoing chemotherapy and I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I ended up catching it and passing it onto her with her immune system being weakened currently. This will be the only time I'm going to be setting foot indoors anywhere apart from my home in the next few weeks.