Mikel Arteta | Lego Pep watch

Devil_forever said:
That’s a bit unfair. There are 4 teams with higher revenues and spending. Finishing top 6 would be about where you’d expect Arsenal to be with their wage bill. Not to mention it’s probably one of the youngest squads in the league.
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Arsenal’s wage bill has them top five. They’ve also outspent most teams around them on new signings over the last couple of years.

In the three seasons before Arteta took over they finished either 5th or 6th. Having almost always nailed a top 4 slot under Wenger. Since he’s been in charge they’ve finished 8th. Twice in a row. And people are trying to argue he’s exceeded expectations? Mental.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
EL spot “above expectations” for Arsenal? Jesus wept. One thing Arteta has evidently done a truly exceptional job at so far is in lowering expectations to ridiculous levels.

Qualifying for the EL is the bare minimum Arsenal should achieve, every single season. In fact, failing to qualify for the CL should always be considered a disappointment for a club with their revenue/spending.
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100%.

Let’s not forget, it was Arteta who thought he could win the CL within 3 years of managing Arsenal, and is one of the reasons he signed Willian on a £250k a week deal:

https://www.skysports.com/amp/footb...an-winning-champions-league-is-arsenal-target

The quotes in that article are :lol: worthy.
 
RedPed said:
Um, you do understand that not all Arsenal fans have signed up on Redcafe, don't you?
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I do, yeah. But there are quite a few Gooners here (props to RedCafe for generally being welcoming to non-WUM opposition fans, btw) so you’d have thought that if Arsenal fans are mostly the way we’re being described in this thread… you would see some sign of that here.

If any fans were gonna be insufferable loudmouths prone to giddiness at the first sign of good form, I would have thought it would be those signed up to a rival forum.

Just seems like a bit of a straw man to me.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Arsenal’s wage bill has them top five. They’ve also outspent most teams around them on new signings over the last couple of years.

In the three seasons before Arteta took over they finished either 5th or 6th. Having almost always nailed a top 4 slot under Wenger. Since he’s been in charge they’ve finished 8th. Twice in a row. And people are trying to argue he’s done a good job? Mental.
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The club needed completely rebuilding, but just so people can know some facts, Arteta so far in his reign:

City
Liverpool
Chelsea - 145 points
United - 142 points
Arsenal - 129 points
Spurs - 124 points
Leicester - 111 points

Since Arteta joined the club, he's 5th in the league on total points. No point looking back at times before that, the league had a lot less money in it whilst Wenger and SAF were around, now the whole league is more competative. This is after having to rebuild the club including getting rid of A LOT of players who were deadwood, and introducing a new style of play after the Wenger era. He's done this whilst also winning some silverware.

So, just to ask you, where exactly do you think Arsenal should be? To me, comparative to spending (we are 4th in spend during Artetas time, behind United, Chelsea and City) and the squad he picked up, Arteta has done a completely fine job. People on here just seem to have a go at him for absolutely no reason, even when the facts are saying he's done the exact job he was meant to and more considering the cup wins. He had a couple rough patches along the way, but considering his experience that was always going to happen. Now after 2 years we actually have some identity and a squad who seem to play together and for each other. If we manage to get top 4 this season, then he's done a fantastic job, and a domestic cup too would be the icing on the cake but we'll see on both of those.

And also, just looking at spend, we spent a fair bit of money on players who we expect to do well in the future, not instant success. I'm not expecting us to suddenly become good because we spent money, it's a long term project. Anyone who says, oh Arsenal spent loads of money so should be doing better isn't really looking at the profile of player. There's some exceptions, aka Pepe mostly though.
 
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Nish115 said:
The club needed completely rebuilding, but just so people can know some facts, Arteta so far in his reign:

City
Liverpool
Chelsea - 145 points
United - 142 points
Arsenal - 129 points
Spurs - 124 points
Leicester - 111 points

Since Arteta joined the club, he's 5th in the league on total points. No point looking back at times before that, the league had a lot less money in it whilst Wenger and SAF were around, now the whole league is more competative. This is after having to rebuild the club including getting rid of A LOT of players who were deadwood, and introducing a new style of play after the Wenger era. He's done this whilst also winning some silverware.

So, just to ask you, where exactly do you think Arsenal should be? To me, comparative to spending (we are 4th in spend during Artetas time, behind United, Chelsea and City) and the squad he picked up, Arteta has done a completely fine job. People on here just seem to have a go at him for absolutely no reason, even when the facts are saying he's done the exact job he was meant to and more considering the cup wins. He had a couple rough patches along the way, but considering his experience that was always going to happen. Now after 2 years we actually have some identity and a squad who seem to play together and for each other. If we manage to get top 4 this season, then he's done a fantastic job, and a domestic cup too would be the icing on the cake but we'll see on both of those.

And also, just looking at spend, we spent a fair bit of money on players who we expect to do well in the future, not instant success. I'm not expecting us to suddenly become good because we spent money, it's a long term project. Anyone who says, oh Arsenal spent loads of money so should be doing better isn't really looking at the profile of player. There's some exceptions, aka Pepe mostly though.
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Where exactly do I think Arsenal should be? Better than 8th place in the league, that’s for damn sure. Which is where they’ve finished under Arteta. Twice in a row.

You can spin it whichever way you want but he’s consistently steered Arsenal to a league position that is well below expectations for a club that size. That’s the simple fact that the Arteta fan club are bizarrely intent on ignoring. I remember at the end of last season there was all this bollox about their “points since Christmas” and how this meant they were finally mixing it with the big boys.

Sure enough, they have a shocking start to this season proving they’re once again miles off the pace (with Spurs and United firing managers who had a similar start) but all it takes is a few wins in a row for the revisionism and hubris to kick into gear again. Rinse and repeat.
 
Counting points from the time Arteta became manager has the potential to be misleading. It's perfectly possible that a club performs better that Arsenal for one single season season, which would cause Arsenal to miss their target. This could happen every year. It's already happened once.

What good would it do if Arteta had the club on '4th' over a period of 10 years while actually finishing 6th every season? None!
 
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Pogue Mahone said:
Where exactly do I think Arsenal should be? Better than 8th place in the league. Where they’ve finished under Arteta. Twice in a row.

You can spin it whichever way you want but he’s consistently steered Arsenal to a league position that is well below expectations for a club that size. That’s the simple fact that the Arteta fan club are bizarrely intent on ignoring.
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What am I spinning? Why are you including half a season where Arteta wasn't even involved? What does that prove?

I've literally told you his exact points since joining compared to other sides, to which he is 5th. If you wanted to say he under performed last season, i'll give you that, but before he took over in his first season we were 11th..
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Where exactly do I think Arsenal should be? Better than 8th place in the league, that’s for damn sure. Which is where they’ve finished under Arteta. Twice in a row.

You can spin it whichever way you want but he’s consistently steered Arsenal to a league position that is well below expectations for a club that size. That’s the simple fact that the Arteta fan club are bizarrely intent on ignoring. I remember at the end of last season there was all this bollox about their “points since Christmas” and how this meant they were finally mixing it with the big boys.

Sure enough, they have a shocking start to this season proving they’re once again miles off the pace (with Spurs and United firing managers who had a similar start) but all it takes is a few wins in a row for the revisionism and hubris to kick into gear again. Rinse and repeat.
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So to confirm you're ignoring the fact that factually he has the 5th most amount of points since he started, yet you are happy to make a point of the fact that we lost 3 games at the start of the season with 9 players out against Brentford, City and Chelsea who were all full strength? How are we miles off the pace, when we are literally 4th.

Then you're also saying that United and Spurs firing managers and having a poor start to the season is fine, but when it comes to Arteta you're ignoring the fact that that happened in the first half of his first season too and are including that in his performance? Ok...
 
Arsenal was a real mess… Rebuilding takes time when a club “sleeps in class to long. Today it seems like Arteta have done much right. They are heading in the right direction with a very young and talented squad. They’ve played quite entertaining football lately. They should definitely be among top-6, but I don’t think they are ready to break into top-4, on behalf of United, this season.

Edit: Maybe not on behalf of United:nervous: What’s going on in Newcastle:wenger:
 
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Nish115 said:
The club needed completely rebuilding, but just so people can know some facts, Arteta so far in his reign:

City
Liverpool
Chelsea - 145 points
United - 142 points
Arsenal - 129 points
Spurs - 124 points
Leicester - 111 points

Since Arteta joined the club, he's 5th in the league on total points. No point looking back at times before that, the league had a lot less money in it whilst Wenger and SAF were around, now the whole league is more competative. This is after having to rebuild the club including getting rid of A LOT of players who were deadwood, and introducing a new style of play after the Wenger era. He's done this whilst also winning some silverware.

So, just to ask you, where exactly do you think Arsenal should be? To me, comparative to spending (we are 4th in spend during Artetas time, behind United, Chelsea and City) and the squad he picked up, Arteta has done a completely fine job. People on here just seem to have a go at him for absolutely no reason, even when the facts are saying he's done the exact job he was meant to and more considering the cup wins. He had a couple rough patches along the way, but considering his experience that was always going to happen. Now after 2 years we actually have some identity and a squad who seem to play together and for each other. If we manage to get top 4 this season, then he's done a fantastic job, and a domestic cup too would be the icing on the cake but we'll see on both of those.

And also, just looking at spend, we spent a fair bit of money on players who we expect to do well in the future, not instant success. I'm not expecting us to suddenly become good because we spent money, it's a long term project. Anyone who says, oh Arsenal spent loads of money so should be doing better isn't really looking at the profile of player. There's some exceptions, aka Pepe mostly though.
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Great post

Iker Quesadillas said:
You were 8th when Emery was fired and finished 8th under Arteta.
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Not true, well purposefully misleading anyway. Yo u know full well that Arteta didn’t take over immediately
 
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What is purposely misleading is to use a caretaker's track record to pretend Arsenal were in a worse state than they actually were.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
What is purposely misleading is to use a caretaker's track record to pretend Arsenal were in a worse state than they actually were.
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Because the comment you replied to was specifically about when Arteta took over. What you said had feck all to do with the comment. I know you know about the caretakers stint because I corrected you about it a month ago
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
What is purposely misleading is to use a caretaker's track record to pretend Arsenal were in a worse state than they actually were.
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Wait, what?

Surely when judging Arteta the relevant fact is where Arsenal were when Arteta took over.
 
Daydreamer said:
Surely when judging Arteta the relevant fact is where Arsenal were when Arteta took over.
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Yes. We are talking about where Arsenal were as a club. There is no single, 'objective' answer to that question.

Me and others are saying that long-term metrics such as "Arsenal's league placement in the previous season" or "Arsenal's league placement over the previous 3 seasons" are a good answer to 'where Arsenal were as a club'. Someone else is saying that an instantaneous metric such as "Arsenal's league position the minute Arteta was hired" is an appropriate metric.

I disagree that it is appropriate metric because instantaneous metrics are incredibly volatile. For example, if I used an instantaneous metric, I could argue that Arsenal, as a club, were a relegation-level team on the 28th of August. That is, objectively, true: they were 20th on the table. Does that mean Arteta has turned a relegation-level team into a top 4 contender?
 
Except the comment you replied to was strictly talking about Pogue’s finishing 8th twice comment. He pointed out that in the season he took over, the club was 10th and Arteta’s points haul was ok.

You know all this
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
Yes. We are talking about where Arsenal were as a club. There is no single, 'objective' answer to that question.

Me and others are saying that long-term metrics such as "Arsenal's league placement in the previous season" or "Arsenal's league placement over the previous 3 seasons" are a good answer to 'where Arsenal were as a club'. Someone else is saying that an instantaneous metric such as "Arsenal's league position the minute Arteta was hired" is an appropriate metric.

I disagree that it is appropriate metric because instantaneous metrics are incredibly volatile. For example, if I used an instantaneous metric, I could argue that Arsenal, as a club, were a relegation-level team on the 28th of August. That is, objectively, true: they were 20th on the table. Does that mean Arteta has turned a relegation-level team into a top 4 contender?
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So are we saying Ole didn't do a good job in the first couple of seasons because Mourinho finished 2nd at Man Utd the season before?
 
GoonerBear said:
So are we saying Ole didn't do a good job in the first couple of seasons because Mourinho finished 2nd at Man Utd the season before?
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It was widely argued that Ole should not have been given the permanent manager job in his first half-season, given that they ended up finishing 6th. There was no clear consensus that he'd done a good job.

The next season he finished 3rd and the next one he finished 2nd and that is when people were more confident in saying he was doing a good job.

All of that is consistent with what I've said.
 
Look, if you want to believe that finishing 8th rocks because the team was in 12th place for two seconds, you can. I'm glad that works for you. Maybe there's a lesson there for the rest of us about finding joy in life so easily.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
Look, if you want to believe that finishing 8th rocks because the team was in 12th place for two seconds, you can. I'm glad that works for you. Maybe there's a lesson there for the rest of us about finding joy in life so easily.
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Can't believe anyone said it rocked finishing 8th. Nearly everyone said he has been lucky to keep his job at times. But the club needed a complete reboot & most are glad that it finally seems to be happening.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
Look, if you want to believe that finishing 8th rocks because the team was in 12th place for two seconds, you can. I'm glad that works for you. Maybe there's a lesson there for the rest of us about finding joy in life so easily.
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My lesson for you would be to check your house for lead paint
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
Yes. We are talking about where Arsenal were as a club. There is no single, 'objective' answer to that question.

Me and others are saying that long-term metrics such as "Arsenal's league placement in the previous season" or "Arsenal's league placement over the previous 3 seasons" are a good answer to 'where Arsenal were as a club'. Someone else is saying that an instantaneous metric such as "Arsenal's league position the minute Arteta was hired" is an appropriate metric.

I disagree that it is appropriate metric because instantaneous metrics are incredibly volatile. For example, if I used an instantaneous metric, I could argue that Arsenal, as a club, were a relegation-level team on the 28th of August. That is, objectively, true: they were 20th on the table. Does that mean Arteta has turned a relegation-level team into a top 4 contender?
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You do realise that we can read what was being discussed, right?
Iker Quesadillas said:
You were 8th when Emery was fired and finished 8th under Arteta.
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That’s your “instantaneous metric”. The rather obvious point being made is that if we’re going to use starting league position as a data point (your data point - I might add) to analyse Arteta’s performance it makes sense to use Arsenal’s league position when Arteta started. You know, as opposed to when Ljungberg started his six game Caretaker stint where he only won one game.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
Yes. We are talking about where Arsenal were as a club. There is no single, 'objective' answer to that question.

Me and others are saying that long-term metrics such as "Arsenal's league placement in the previous season" or "Arsenal's league placement over the previous 3 seasons" are a good answer to 'where Arsenal were as a club'. Someone else is saying that an instantaneous metric such as "Arsenal's league position the minute Arteta was hired" is an appropriate metric.

I disagree that it is appropriate metric because instantaneous metrics are incredibly volatile. For example, if I used an instantaneous metric, I could argue that Arsenal, as a club, were a relegation-level team on the 28th of August. That is, objectively, true: they were 20th on the table. Does that mean Arteta has turned a relegation-level team into a top 4 contender?
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Arteta was manager when Arsenal plunged to the bottom so that analogy makes no sense. But when he took over from Ljungberg they were 10th and finished 8th.
 
He has done a good job with cleaning up the ageing and high wage squad replacing them with British core players. It's looking like we will replace Auba,Xhaka and Lacazette over the summer which will be good for club on a longer run. The squad he inherited was a mess and he has struggled a lot, not saying he is perfect but he has done an ok job for steadying the ship.
 
footyfan019 said:
He has done a good job with cleaning up the ageing and high wage squad replacing them with British core players. It's looking like we will replace Auba,Xhaka and Lacazette over the summer which will be good for club on a longer run. The squad he inherited was a mess and he has struggled a lot, not saying he is perfect but he has done an ok job for steadying the ship.
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Xhaka out of Arsenal, what a glorious day that will be.
 
maniak said:
Xhaka out of Arsenal, what a glorious day that will be.
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I think he plays an important role for Arteta's system. I just don't see Arteta will sell him unless Xhaka wants out. I hope Lacazette will renew his contract too so he can give us option up front. His link up play is very good. Hopefully the club can agree a 2 year deal with him, but I believe Lacazette is looking for a longer deal else where.
 
Arteta is doing a wonderful job and the way he turned things around has to be worth some praise regardless of if they somehow don’t make it into Europa league. I don’t know why some poster keep insisting that they know more than me. I m sure they are worried about the recent form showed by Arsenal. This is even an incomplete Arsenal team. If they get their transfer right next season, they could be fighting for a place in the top four.
 
If Arsenal somehow don't make it into the Europa League this season then by definition he will not have turned anything around.
 
Daydreamer said:
That’s your “instantaneous metric”. The rather obvious point being made is that if we’re going to use starting league position as a data point (your data point - I might add) to analyse Arteta’s performance it makes sense to use Arsenal’s league position when Arteta started. You know, as opposed to when Ljungberg started his six game Caretaker stint where he only won one game.
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My metric to judge Arteta is not their position when Emery was fired. It is Arsenal's performance in previous seasons, their track record, and their expectations as a club. If I judged Arteta by Emery's final position, I'd be doing him a favor.

It doesn't make sense to use their league position when Arteta started or when Emery was fired. Nobody believed that Arsenal were, on underlying quality, the 8th or 10th or 12th best team in the Premier League when Arteta was appointed. That's why they fired the manager.

The fundamental claim here is, "Arsenal were in really bad shape." The evidence being offered is "they were 11th or 12th for a few weeks." That is weak evidence for the claim. Football teams have periods of bad form; they are not necessarily a reflection of their underlying quality. A manager hired mid-season is almost certainly taking over a period after a period of bad form. If you judge the manager based on where the team where when they took over (or whereabouts), you are very likely to be using outliers as your reference point.

Nobody actually judges managers this way. Two years into Xavi's stint as manager of Barcelona, 'league placement when he was hired' isn't going to be anywhere on your mind. You're going to judge him based on the standards of your club, previous league finishes under other managers, and take context into account.
 
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Iker Quesadillas said:
If Arsenal somehow don't make it into the Europa League this season then by definition he will not have turned anything around.
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Will be surprised if they don't make it to EL this season tbf. Leicester have been atrocious, WHU are not in the best of form and even though I expect United and Spurs to finish above Arsenal, for Arsenal to finish below WHU (who are the only other realistic contender for top 6), it would require Arsenal to go into a lower half team form here on
 
They have EL qualification in the bag. They've improved considerably from last season.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Where exactly do I think Arsenal should be? Better than 8th place in the league, that’s for damn sure. Which is where they’ve finished under Arteta. Twice in a row.

You can spin it whichever way you want but he’s consistently steered Arsenal to a league position that is well below expectations for a club that size. That’s the simple fact that the Arteta fan club are bizarrely intent on ignoring. I remember at the end of last season there was all this bollox about their “points since Christmas” and how this meant they were finally mixing it with the big boys.

Sure enough, they have a shocking start to this season proving they’re once again miles off the pace (with Spurs and United firing managers who had a similar start) but all it takes is a few wins in a row for the revisionism and hubris to kick into gear again. Rinse and repeat.
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You don’t rate Arteta, I get it. Time will tell if you’re proven right or not. However, from my perspective, there’s currently much to be positive about. The team is playing consistently with much energy and our players are generally young with much room for further improvement. So, I’m optimistic that we will certainly finish in the top 6 and who knows, maybe even better than that. The club is also looking to strengthen the team.

I have no idea whether Rangnick will turn your current squad into world beaters but based upon their performances to date, I doubt it.

Maguire, Lindelof, AWB, Fred, McTominey and Martial are not good enough. Both Rashford and Greenwood seem to have lost confidence not getting enough playing time up against a 34 and a 36 year old who’ve seen better days.

In terms of where you are, I’d say you’re 2 years behind Arsenal.
 
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TJ Reid said:
You don’t rate Arteta, I get it. Time will tell if you’re proven right or not. However, from my perspective, there’s currently much to be positive about. The team is playing consistently with much energy and our players are generally young with much room for further improvement. So, I’m optimistic that we will certainly finish in the top 6 and who knows, maybe even better than that. The club is also looking to strengthen the team.

I have no idea whether Rangnick will turn your current squad into world beaters but based upon their performances to date, I doubt it.

Maguire, Lindelof, AWB, Fred, McTominey and Martial are not good enough. Both Rashford and Greenwood seem to have lost confidence not getting enough playing time up against a 34 and a 36 year old who’ve seen better days.

In terms of where you are, I’d say you’re 2 years behind Arsenal.
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Id say they're where we were a decade ago. No trophies and all that false hope disappearing by Christmas. The only difference being their football is shite.
 
At least the game in hand and we will be above you excuse isn’t possible anymore.
 
Donaldo said:
Id say they're where we were a decade ago. No trophies and all that false hope disappearing by Christmas. The only difference being their football is shite.
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Their football is woeful. Their build up is slow and ponderous allowing teams to get back into a good defensive shape. Ronaldo and Cavani don’t have the legs to maintain energy for 90 minutes. Fernandes has been overawed by Ronaldo and is not the player he was last year. Arsenal‘s young team move the ball at speed with often one touch passing that allows them to get behind teams. Utd yesterday against Newcastle seemed by comparison a team of old timers.
 
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