The chase for 4th place (not top 4)

[Verward]

Like I said, we are basically an under 23's team. This team is in its infancy and our first 11 is probably the youngest in Europe.

We are going to get better by virtue of our young players getting more experience and playing together.

Our current squad is at the beginning of a cycle, where as United team isnt young, infact most of your players are veterans or players who should be in their prime.

Why is peak United a head lengh behind Arsenal under 23's?

And for how long this infancy period you are willing to accept? Do you think you will get top 4 next season for sure? And will Saka or ESR stay if there's no europe next season?
It sounds like your assumption is based on your squad staying together for next few seasons to get matured but will they have that much patience and faith in Arteta?

 

[MO_Football92]

That's what's my point. You are having a decent season yet you are only one point ahead of a horrible United side. Doesn't say more about you than us ?

What's so horrible about this United side, compared to the last few seasons?

You've been at a similar level for several years. Naive to think signing a 20 and 37 year old would solve the long standing issues with your team.

 

[ThierryFabregas]

That's what's my point. You are having a decent season yet you are only one point ahead of a horrible United side. Doesn't say more about you than us ?

I don't think so really. Because both sides are former greats that are nowhere near their peak sides. It sounds like you are of the opinion that your end of season position will be an anomaly and not reflective of your squad and it's ability and that you will bounce back to repeating last season where you secured a whopping 74 points next season after you lose your best midfielder in the summer. Is that correct?

As for the positions in the table, you're wrong, you're 1 point above us. But we have 2 games in hand and you have to goto Anfield, Etihiad and Emirates. You also host Chelsea and Spurs. Comparatively we have to goto Spurs and Chelsea and host United and Liverpool. So we have an easier run in. That aside some of your hardest games are around the Atletico CL fixtures.

As for Arsenal's season, I'd say it's a building season. We're developing a standard of play, defensive structure, intense pressing, standards of individual behaviour. We're also developing many young players, United have been too over the last few seasons.

Unlike United and Spurs we don't have any match winners or stars right now. But we do work more efficiently as a team in my view.

That aside I think United could massively improve by adding a couple of top CMs and a CB in the summer. But they have to be the right signings. If they get another Maguire then I don't know what to say.

 

[Nero]

Given how often we've been in Top 4 races you would think everyone here would be experienced enough to know that the race is far from over whenever a team drops stupid points.

 

[bond19821982]

I don't think so really. Because both sides are former greats that are nowhere near their peak sides. It sounds like you are of the opinion that your end of season position will be an anomaly and not reflective of your squad and it's ability and that you will bounce back to repeating last season where you secured a whopping 74 points next season after you lose your best midfielder in the summer. Is that correct?

As for the positions in the table, you're wrong, you're 1 point above us. But we have 2 games in hand and you have to goto Anfield, Etihiad and Emirates. You also host Chelsea and Spurs. Comparatively we have to goto Spurs and Chelsea and host United and Liverpool. So we have an easier run in. That aside some of your hardest games are around the Atletico CL fixtures.

As for Arsenal's season, I'd say it's a building season. We're developing a standard of play, defensive structure, intense pressing, standards of individual behaviour. We're also developing many young players, United have been too over the last few seasons.

Unlike United and Spurs we don't have any match winners or stars right now. But we do work more efficiently as a team in my view.

That aside I think United could massively improve by adding a couple of top CMs and a CB in the summer. But they have to be the right signings. If they get another Maguire then I don't know what to say.

Mate, the points on the board don't lie. Rest all are assumptions and speculations. After today, you have 2 games in hand against Spurs and Chelsea. Not exactly a 6 pointer for you either. So as things stand, you aren't doing any better than us either. Sure, things could improve and you will get 4th by end of season. But until it happens, it's all assumptions only.

You have been building up for future since Wenger days and look how it turned out. What matters is how you perform in the current season.

 

[BurgerVan]

That's what's my point. You are having a decent season yet you are only one point ahead of a horrible United side. Doesn't say more about you than us ?

'Horrible United side'

Lets be real. When Sancho, Ronaldo and Varane were added to the side that finished 2nd, about 3/4 of the cafe were already celebrating the title.

If (and it's a big if) we win our games in hand, we are 2 points behind Chelsea. Who would of thought it.

 

[bond19821982]

What's so horrible about this United side, compared to the last few seasons?

You've been at a similar level for several years. Naive to think signing a 20 and 37 year old would solve the long standing issues with your team.

Horrible season and not team.
Similar level ? We have finished 2 and 3 in the last 2 seasons. How exactly is that similar level to this ?

 

[bond19821982]

OK, but Man Utd are going to need a whole new squad over the next couple of seasons to replace all of their aging and disaffected players and expired contracts, which is my point - Man Utd are in the same position Arsenal were in a couple of seasons ago, and need a complete (and I mean complete) squad rebuild. Arsenal are a couple of seasons into that and so are in a better position.

Arsenal's young signings this season are doing well and will hopefully either get better and keep playing or be sold on for more than was paid. Whereas which Man Utd players are increasing their price tag? Maybe Fernandes?

Again, these are your assumptions that United need an overhaul and Arsenal will do much better. Arsenal has been hyping up youngsters since Wenger days. How many of them exactly reached the potential ? Look what happened to our Mason .

and No, Man United are not in the same position as Arsenal . We have been doing better than you guys for couple of years now. Yes, not exactly something to take pride on but still it's a fact.

 

[NicolaSacco]

Mate, the points on the board don't lie. Rest all are assumptions and speculations. After today, you have 2 games in hand against Spurs and Chelsea. Not exactly a 6 pointer for you either. So as things stand, you aren't doing any better than us either. Sure, things could improve and you will get 4th by end of season. But until it happens, it's all assumptions only.

You have been building up for future since Wenger days and look how it turned out. What matters is how you perform in the current season.

I’ve never understood the logic of trying to identify who the games in hand are against. Unless you are saying Arsenal have the identical set of 14 opponents as Utd have left, but Arsenal also have Spurs abs Chelsea on top?

 

[AshRK]

If we finish top 4 this season then that's an embarrassment to Spurs and Arsenal.

 

[awop]

Again, these are your assumptions that United need an overhaul and Arsenal will do much better. Arsenal has been hyping up youngsters since Wenger days. How many of them exactly reached the potential ? Look what happened to our Mason .

and No, Man United are not in the same position as Arsenal . We have been doing better than you guys for couple of years now. Yes, not exactly something to take pride on but still it's a fact.

How is this in any way relevant ?
If 2 starting midfielders, 1 starting CB and 1(2?) starting strikers is not an overhaul, what is ? That's the spine of your team lead by DDG, who is about to ask to be paid in diamonds and gold bars in his new contract.

 

[ThierryFabregas]

Mate, the points on the board don't lie. Rest all are assumptions and speculations. After today, you have 2 games in hand against Spurs and Chelsea. Not exactly a 6 pointer for you either. So as things stand, you aren't doing any better than us either. Sure, things could improve and you will get 4th by end of season. But until it happens, it's all assumptions only.

You have been building up for future since Wenger days and look how it turned out. What matters is how you perform in the current season.

Mate, why do you think our 2 games in hand are against Spurs and Chelsea? We have way more games than you do against easy pickings in the closing fixtures of the season. We have 11 games left outside of the top 7, you have 9 games left outside of the top 7. So if we average 2 point a game outside the top 7, that should be 4 points on the board for us with the games in hand.

Yes we have Chelsea, Spurs away and Liverpool at home and yourselves at home for us to play from the top teams. You have Liverpool, City, Arsenal away and Spurs and Chelsea at home. So we have 4 top teams left on our schedule and you have 5 top teams left on your schedule. I suppose we have West Ham away aswell, so let's say 5v5 of top teams but yours are harder. You have worse away ties than we do too with both City and Liverpool all but guaranteeing zero points with due respect. We don't play City again, you do away.

Who knows maybe you can turn a corner, outperform against the big teams and prove us all wrong. Maybe both Arsenal and Spurs form will plummet. It could happen

 

[AaronRedDevil]

Should change the title to Top 6 now. 4th is gone.

NOW can we change the title?

 

[AshRK]

Honestly performance wise arsenal nor spurs are that better than Manchester United. Watched them against Wolves and they were crap, in fact United in the first half alone against Burnley deserved to win. The issue is our players it seem have given up on the season. Arsenal or spurs may luck their way into top 4. And if I were their fans I would be pissed if they don't finish 4th.

 

[GoonerBear]

And for how long this infancy period you are willing to accept? Do you think you will get top 4 next season for sure? And will Saka or ESR stay if there's no europe next season?
It sounds like your assumption is based on your squad staying together for next few seasons to get matured but will they have that much patience and faith in Arteta?

Just a wee question. How many Utd fans on here have said that they now want the club to overhaul the squad, get rid of the overpaid, underachieving players and build a young, hungry squad? A project that even if it takes 2 or 3 years you can all get behind?

 

[AshRK]

Just a wee question. How many Utd fans on here have said that they now want the club to overhaul the squad, get rid of the overpaid, underachieving players and build a young, hungry squad?

We need an overhaul but that doesn't mean everything will remain rosey at your end or you don't need major additions. I feel United before the start of the season were a much better proposition but this season has turned out be a disaster for whatever reason.

Also for United top 4 should be a bare minimum so I won't be surprised if we reclaim that with ease. Just that winning the title is put of question for us.

 

[Topgun1]

That's what's my point. You are having a decent season yet you are only one point ahead of a horrible United side. Doesn't say more about you than us ?

Arsenal are having a decent season? Haha. Don't embarrass yourself.

One of the worst seasons in my living memory. Terrible transfers, started the season with 3 losses on the trot. Lost to every competitive team (except Spurs of course). Beaten by United too.

Meanwhile Man United have one of the best squads in the league.

United fired their failing manager. Meanwhile we kept our failing manager. It would be frankly scandalous if Arsenal finished ahead of United. I still don't think it will happen. It cannot because if it did, that reflects horribly on United.

 

[Topgun1]

Given how often we've been in Top 4 races you would think everyone here would be experienced enough to know that the race is far from over whenever a team drops stupid points.

As long as we have our version of Ole at the wheel (Arteta), we have no chance of finishing Top 4. I truly believe that. We will always find a way to drop more points than United.

So your competition is with Spurs.

 

[ThierryFabregas]

We need an overhaul but that doesn't mean everything will remain rosey at your end or you don't need major additions. I feel United before the start of the season were a much better proposition but this season has turned out be a disaster for whatever reason.

Also for United top 4 should be a bare minimum so I won't be surprised if we reclaim that with ease. Just that winning the title is put of question for us.

Top 4 bare minimum? If you miss out this season, you'll have missed 5 out of 9 seasons post-Fergie

You'll certainly be in the equation because you've spent as much as City over the past 5 seasons or so

 

[AshRK]

Top 4 bare minimum? If you miss out this season, you'll have missed 5 out of 9 seasons post-Fergie

You'll certainly be in the equation because you've spent as much as City over the past 5 seasons or so

You didn't get my point. I meant our manager generally are sacked if they finish outside top 4 or miss out on CL football whereas Arsenal manager don't have that pressure. Look at Arteta, some Arsenal fans will call finishing 6th as progress .

Maybe I sounded arrogant when I said we will reclaim with ease. Don't get me wrong I say that with irritation and not as a proud fan. Our owners just care about top 4 and even that in a very half hazardous way.

 

[Kentonio]

Just a wee question. How many Utd fans on here have said that they now want the club to overhaul the squad, get rid of the overpaid, underachieving players and build a young, hungry squad? A project that even if it takes 2 or 3 years you can all get behind?

To be fair, if they go that route there's a fair chance they'll do it by buying at least one of your best young players.

 

[JDDL]

Again, these are your assumptions that United need an overhaul and Arsenal will do much better. Arsenal has been hyping up youngsters since Wenger days. How many of them exactly reached the potential ? Look what happened to our Mason .

and No, Man United are not in the same position as Arsenal . We have been doing better than you guys for couple of years now. Yes, not exactly something to take pride on but still it's a fact.

My point is that there are a lot of players in the arsenal squad who a) I'd want to be in the squad two seasons from now based on their performances this season, and b) I'd expect to be in the squad two seasons from now what with contracts and age (Saka, Odegaard, ESR, Martinelli, Gabriel, Tierney, Tomiyasu, White, Ramsdale). I struggle to make a similar list for Man Utd (Sancho, De Gea and Fernandes? I'm not clued up on Man Utd's contract situation).

It's not my assumption that United need an overhaul; it's pretty much unanimous on this forum. Do you really want Maguire, Shaw, Fred, AWB, and McTominay starting for you two seasons from now? In which time Pobga, Cavani, Ronaldo, Lingard, Greenwood etc will all be gone due to age, contracts and other reasons

 

[C'est Moi Cantona]

We know what's happening between now and the end of the season, alot of draws, a few sneaky wins, and it could be any team we get either of these against, other than Liverpool or City, who will beat us, they'll be no mad winning surge, and no falling off a cliff.

If this is enough for us to get 4th, then Arsenal, Spurs, and West Ham, are going to have to be pretty inconsistant, but this is possible.

 

[GoonerBear]

We need an overhaul but that doesn't mean everything will remain rosey at your end or you don't need major additions. I feel United before the start of the season were a much better proposition but this season has turned out be a disaster for whatever reason.

Also for United top 4 should be a bare minimum so I won't be surprised if we reclaim that with ease. Just that winning the title is put of question for us.

Im not saying we are defo on a 1 way journey, and that we're only going to get better etc like some on here might be saying.

You know yourself now, once you drop from that pinnacle it's hard as feck to get back up, especially when the club is continually making poor decisions in terms of management, in terms of signing players etc.

My point is more the fact that certain people seem to be critical of the strategy Arsenal have decided to go down, despite many on her hoping to rip it up and start again with a similar strategy. I just don't get that.

To be fair, if they go that route there's a fair chance they'll do it by buying at least one of your best young players.

Can't see it mate. Liverpool or City currently, yeah. Don't think Utd have that pull currently in terms of taking a player from a big rival. That's not me being arrogant, I just think to leave us just now it would be for a title challenging team. Not for 1 in a similar transition to ourselves.

 

[maniak]

You can count on Arsenal losing all the matches against the other top teams, that's a given. With our attacking situation, we are 1 injury away of having a mid-table front 3. We have Xhaka teaching Partey how to make silly mistakes and get card after card. We've been really lucky so far, it can't last forever, although I've been saying this for months so who knows.

Artetout

 

[croadyman]

We’re still finish 4th I believe, spurs aren’t great, arsenal are arsenal, we will be fine but we cant afford to slip up against Brighton, making a real mess of it though

You probably said we couldn't afford to slip up against Burnley & Southampton either but guess what we did

 

[Powderfinger]

None of the teams chasing top four are all that good and the league overall is tougher than its ever been. If you catch one of the midtable sides like Brighton, Wolves, Palace, Leicester, Villa, Soton in good form, its going to be a struggle to secure the points for any club that isn't literally one of the best sides in the world. There are very very few true soft spots in the league anymore. The majority of matches are difficult ones.

All of this is to say that who knows what will happen. All the contenders will drop a lot more points and people will say its because they're all shit but really its because you literally have to be a top 5-6 side in the world to be good enough to win consistently week after week in the PL now. Ten years ago you could be a pretty good team with some strengths and some weaknesses and get 70 points and 4th place (pretty much Wenger's formula during that era). The same level team today is going to get 60 points, finish 7th or 8th, and get roundly mocked.

 

[Ludens the Red]

None of the teams chasing top four are all that good and the league overall is tougher than its ever been. If you catch one of the midtable sides like Brighton, Wolves, Palace, Leicester, Villa, Soton in good form, its going to be a struggle to secure the points for any club that isn't literally one of the best sides in the world. There are very very few true soft spots in the league anymore. The majority of matches are difficult ones.

All of this is to say that who knows what will happen. All the contenders will drop a lot more points and people will say its because they're all shit but really its because you literally have to be a top 5-6 side in the world to be good enough to win consistently week after week in the PL now. Ten years ago you could be a pretty good team with some strengths and some weaknesses and get 70 points and 4th place (pretty much Wenger's formula during that era). The same level team today is going to get 60 points, finish 7th or 8th, and get roundly mocked.

Actually I think it is really cos they are shit. Spurs and United are wank. Neither are as good as they were ten years ago or even five years ago. Their football is wank and it’s reflected in massively inconsistent results and the fact both sets of fans seem to despise everything about the clubs.
Those mid table clubs can compete on some days yes but on other days you have things like
Palace 0-7 Liverpool
United 9-0 Southampton
Brighton 1-4 city
Leicetser 0-3 chelsea … that’s literally all in the last year. The United team that came 2nd last year wasn’t even as good as most of the Arsenal teams that were coming 4th.

 

[MO_Football92]

Horrible season and not team.
Similar level ? We have finished 2 and 3 in the last 2 seasons. How exactly is that similar level to this ?

Thats where you finished, but I'm talking about where you were at this stage in the previous 7 seasons.
I think it's pretty much similar to now.

 

[MO_Football92]

None of the teams chasing top four are all that good and the league overall is tougher than its ever been. If you catch one of the midtable sides like Brighton, Wolves, Palace, Leicester, Villa, Soton in good form, its going to be a struggle to secure the points for any club that isn't literally one of the best sides in the world. There are very very few true soft spots in the league anymore. The majority of matches are difficult ones.

All of this is to say that who knows what will happen. All the contenders will drop a lot more points and people will say its because they're all shit but really its because you literally have to be a top 5-6 side in the world to be good enough to win consistently week after week in the PL now. Ten years ago you could be a pretty good team with some strengths and some weaknesses and get 70 points and 4th place (pretty much Wenger's formula during that era). The same level team today is going to get 60 points, finish 7th or 8th, and get roundly mocked.

That's nonsense. 65 points has been enough for 4th in the previous two campaigns. The last season where the premier league was at its current standard was 2018/19.

The teams finishing between third and fifth will all reach 70+ points this year.

 

[DJBillRemfry]

West Ham have been playing their reserve back 4 for the last 2-3 months.

Still top 4.

 

[peridigm]

We've averaged 1.9ppg since Ralf took charge. All against mid to low level sides. It was 1.5ppg before he came in.
Can't see us getting much above 60pts but we do play Spurs and Arsenal once more.

 

[Nou_Camp99]

We can probably afford to drop no more than 8 or 9 PTS from remaining 42.

Given we still have to go away to City, Liverpool and have Spurs Arsenal and Chelsea to play too I think it's curtains chaps.

It's now a question of 5th to 8th place and how bad we truly are.

Shocking.

 

[Thunderhead]

We can probably afford to drop no more than 8 or 9 PTS from remaining 42.

Given we still have to go away to City, Liverpool and have Spurs Arsenal and Chelsea to play too I think it's curtains chaps.

It's now a question of 5th to 8th place and how bad we truly are.

Shocking.

Nah, 68 points will get 4th, everyone from 4th-7th is going to drop a load of points

 

[Nou_Camp99]

Nah, 68 points will get 4th, everyone from 4th-7th is going to drop a load of points

Don't see us getting that many. We are on course for a 63pts finish going off PTS per games played I think. And our run in isn't easy either.

Thursday night football is looking odds on I'd say.

 

[Thunderhead]

Don't see us getting that many. We are on course for a 63pts finish going off PTS per games played I think. And our run in isn't easy either.

Thursday night football is looking odds on I'd say.

I wouldn't disagree with that but I still think there is nothing between the 4 teams going for 4th and IF it clicks you're probably the best squad to take advantage

 

[Nou_Camp99]

I wouldn't disagree with that but I still think there is nothing between the 4 teams going for 4th and IF it clicks you're probably the best squad to take advantage

On paper our squad is good. Trouble is on grass it's pretty shocking and that's where the game is played.

I think we will miss out and it's all we deserve tbh. The squad needs ripped apart this summer and missing out on the CL is the perfect excuse.

 

[bond19821982]

Thats where you finished, but I'm talking about where you were at this stage in the previous 7 seasons.
I think it's pretty much similar to now.

How's that relevant anyway? The point under discussion is completely different.

 

[bond19821982]

My point is that there are a lot of players in the arsenal squad who a) I'd want to be in the squad two seasons from now based on their performances this season, and b) I'd expect to be in the squad two seasons from now what with contracts and age (Saka, Odegaard, ESR, Martinelli, Gabriel, Tierney, Tomiyasu, White, Ramsdale). I struggle to make a similar list for Man Utd (Sancho, De Gea and Fernandes? I'm not clued up on Man Utd's contract situation).

It's not my assumption that United need an overhaul; it's pretty much unanimous on this forum. Do you really want Maguire, Shaw, Fred, AWB, and McTominay starting for you two seasons from now? In which time Pobga, Cavani, Ronaldo, Lingard, Greenwood etc will all be gone due to age, contracts and other reasons

You are assuming all of the players you mentioned will become stars or brilliant players. I don't believe that. The team is only as good as it is on the field.

You think United will need a major overhaul - fine, but that's for next year. As things stand , if Arsenal is having a decent season, then you are doing as bad as us.

 

[bond19821982]

Arsenal are having a decent season? Haha. Don't embarrass yourself.

One of the worst seasons in my living memory. Terrible transfers, started the season with 3 losses on the trot. Lost to every competitive team (except Spurs of course). Beaten by United too.

Meanwhile Man United have one of the best squads in the league.

United fired their failing manager. Meanwhile we kept our failing manager. It would be frankly scandalous if Arsenal finished ahead of United. I still don't think it will happen. It cannot because if it did, that reflects horribly on United.

I didn't say that and it was coming from a resident Arsenal fan. Please read the posts again.