Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

Just some thoughts on world's Leader, that it's easy for us to ask why not X send Troops to Y etc.

But for leaders of their respective nation every decision weights a mountain, and there's no guarantee that they'll pick the right choices. Germany for all it's worth could have abandoned the gas and go hard on Russia, but the economic downfall could be catastrophical in the midst of corona not yet ending. The same with Americans to be fair to them, this time the stake is high, a fully nuclear powered megalomaniac, not some goat herder stuck in the mountains, and my thoughts goes to UKR president, he must have been having a hard time making decisions as every decisions could lead to more death.

Should he compromise, surrender for the safety of his citizen? Should he continue fighting? Should he wait for the not likely to come international aid? Should he send his fellow countrymen to a brutal war? Can the Russia be trusted with cease fire? Would retaliating brings a harsher reaction?

Those are questions that could lead to people dying, either way, it's not easy for them to make any decisions at this point.

Just some thought
 
Livvie said:
Whilst not condoning Russia in any way, can't help comparing the shelling with America's 'shock and awe' tactics in Baghdad and wondering if it upset people as much as what they're seeing now.

We've done it, so it's a tad hypocritical feeling for the people of Ukraine (which we are, and should be) whilst not having the same emotional response for the Iraquis.
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Its a fair point you make, until you look at who is being removed from power by it.

Bin laden.
Saddam.
Zelenskyy.

As my optometrist asks, better before or after?
 
Ukraine is fecked no matter what. Surrender and go under Russian leadership will haunt the population for decades. The people wont be as free as you'd like and the value of life will decrease.

Go on and fight and ALOT will die, Russia would still take control but atleast you did something. Plus Putin might lose support from the public
 
Livvie said:
Whilst not condoning Russia in any way, can't help comparing the shelling with America's 'shock and awe' tactics in Baghdad and wondering if it upset people as much as what they're seeing now.

We've done it, so it's a tad hypocritical feeling for the people of Ukraine (which we are, and should be) whilst not having the same emotional response for the Iraquis.
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It's much worse I bet, they're not pulling any punches back then. Probably not civilian, but I suspect the Iraq troops would have a harder time. Not to mention being occupied for years, plus sanction, and lack of policing, etc.
 
Raoul said:
Imagine being a Russian soldier going door to door in Kiev and suddenly finding himself face to face with Wladimir Klitschko
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face to face would imply they managed to get inside Klitschkos jab. Not happening
 
Both US and UK intelligence talking themselves up tonight and being rather glib. hmmm.
 
VorZakone said:
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Honestly, forgetting the EU-side clusterfeck, how the US have played this uno reverse trolling card on the Russians when and where they least expected it - in an open conflict - has been fascinating.

I personally think it's genius because it demonstrates the reliability (in this case) of the US as an intelligence partner and it must eat Putin from the inside he's effectively contributing to this notion.

Hopefully they have a few more aces up their sleeve because frankly German, et. al.'s selfishness is pathetic.
 
owlo said:
Both US and UK intelligence talking themselves up tonight and being rather glib. hmmm.
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It might be the first time they've ever told the truth so they want to savor it. Also they only did it because it fecked with Russia and their gloating is probably doing the same thing now.
 
Mciahel Goodman said:
It might be the first time they've ever told the truth so they want to savor it. Also they only did it because it fecked with Russia and their gloating is probably doing the same thing now.
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Right, US and UK bad, Russia good. What kind of nonsense is this.

They're fecking spies, they better be good at lying.
 
Rightnr said:
Right, US and UK bad, Russia good. What kind of nonsense is this.

They're fecking spies, they better be good at lying.
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Reread the forum rules and ignore me if you cannot understand basic sentences.
 
owlo said:
Both US and UK intelligence talking themselves up tonight and being rather glib. hmmm.
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Completed warranted, as they would've been blamed by the usual pitchfork brigade had the information been incorrect.
 
2cents said:
All that. And then there’s also the random stuff that can happen out of the blue in these situations with the potential to shift the course of events (e.g. the accidental downing of a non-hostile aircraft).
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Exactly, accidental or even semi-accidental...
 
Mciahel Goodman said:
Reread the forum rules and ignore me if you cannot understand basic sentences.
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You already proved you have some naive (I'm being generous) misconceptions on energy policy and now you're trying to imply intelligence has lied previously on most occasions and somehow I need to reread the forum rules?

Yeah, I don't think so.
 
Saw this on twitter and it brought a rare chuckle for today.

FMZ4ogqXEAUwmvr
 
Neo_Mufc said:
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Not a good sign that China are going out of their way to portray Russia favourably among their population. This leaves the door open for them to join in on the conflict if west comes in to Ukraine's aid. It is not likely but looks like China wants to keep their options open.
 
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Sky1981 said:
Wouldn't be a surprise, in the year 2022 with 100.000 soldiers each have an android smart phone, it's very hard to conceal everything. Soldiers talk, even in ancient time a big scale invasion can't be hidden due to spies from all sides.
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There is also another side of this. In the middle of this mess there is a subtle blame game going in the US between the republicans and the democrats about whose fault this is (Trump or Biden), so the media leaning towards the democrats try to show that Biden dealt very well with the situation, and on the other side Foxnews makes it all Biden's fault and wouldn't have happened under Trump.
 
Sky1981 said:
Wouldn't be a surprise, in the year 2022 with 100.000 soldiers each have an android smart phone, it's very hard to conceal everything. Soldiers talk, even in ancient time a big scale invasion can't be hidden due to spies from all sides.
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i wonder if the Yanks have some new technology. They can spot a one pence coin from outer space, could they have technology that they can ears drop from outer space? Maybe microscopic ears dropping drones??? Whatever it is, the American military have become very secretive the past decade or so about their capabilities & new technologies.
 
Rightnr said:
You already proved you have some naive (I'm being generous) misconceptions on energy policy and now you're trying to imply intelligence has lied previously on most occasions and somehow I need to reread the forum rules?

Yeah, I don't think so.
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You need to calm down. Read rules re constructive engagement.

As for intelligence lying. I'm not implying it, I am saying it is a fact. They lie because that is what they do. Did you not just concede this exact point yourself in your previous post ("better be good at lying")? I have literally zero idea what you are doing here except perhaps you think you're on some kind of personal crusade? Either way, it makes no sense.
 
Sky1981 said:
It's much worse I bet, they're not pulling any punches back then. Probably not civilian, but I suspect the Iraq troops would have a harder time. Not to mention being occupied for years, plus sanction, and lack of policing, etc.
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I am surprised that the Russians have not gone in with Shock and Awe. They seem fairly restricted. They could have flattened a lot like the Americans did in Iraq. But so far they haven't done so.
I wonder if they will increase the intensity if the Ukrainians fight back?
 
Rams said:
i wonder if the Yanks have some new technology. They can spot a one pence coin from outer space, could they have technology that they can ears drop from outer space? Maybe microscopic ears dropping drones??? Whatever it is, the American military have become very secretive the past decade or so about their capabilities & new technologies.
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Maybe, but with google earth, we already have what we need. Anything else is overkill

I could practically see your house from here, good luck concealing 100.000 soldiers.
 
Don't Kill Bill said:
Its a fair point you make, until you look at who is being removed from power by it.

Bin laden.
Saddam.
Zelenskyy.

As my optometrist asks, better before or after?
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Bin Laden had power over nothing. Iraq was much worse after the war and still is. The state collapsed.

People really don’t need to start justifying American war crimes to make Putin’s look worse.
 
Don't Kill Bill said:
Its a fair point you make, until you look at who is being removed from power by it.

Bin laden.
Saddam.
Zelenskyy.

As my optometrist asks, better before or after?
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Who supported Bin Laden and Saddam and helped them become the destructive powers in the region they became?

You know what, let's leave it to another time and another thread. But it's okay te reflect on own mistakes/crimes, it doesn't make Russia look better, it makes you look better.
 
Foxbatt said:
I am surprised that the Russians have not gone in with Shock and Awe. They seem fairly restricted. They could have flattened a lot like the Americans did in Iraq. But so far they haven't done so.
I wonder if they will increase the intensity if the Ukrainians fight back?
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It has been fairly muted compared to what they are capable of. I think they underestimated Ukrainian resolve to fight and presumed much of the country would capitulate fairly quickly. They've also never had to deal with a country of Ukraine's size and are probably figuring things out as they go, which isn't exactly an ideal recipe for success. The thing the Russians have going for them is they have the Ukrainians severely outgunned, and now that they more or less have taken out Ukrainian AAA and have air supremacy, they can start rolling in with heavy armor and artillery. I would be surprised if Kiev will last 48 hours once this happens. Zelinsky and his fam should probably find a way to move to Lviv or Poland before the Kiev get encircled by the Russians.
 
Danny1982 said:
Who supported Bin Laden and Saddam and helped them become the destructive powers in the region they became?

You know what, let's leave it to another time and another thread. But it's okay te reflect on own mistakes/crimes, it doesn't make Russia look better, it makes you look better.
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Let's not forget the Sudanese offered Bin Laden to the Yanks years ago. Post 911 the Taliban offered to hand him over to Saudi - if they were shown some evidence.

Life in Iraq was much better before the invasion which led to huge sectarian violence and the creation of ISIS.

Look at Libya, one of the best countries to live in in Africa, turned into a hell hole.
 
KingCavani said:
Bin Laden had power over nothing. Iraq was much worse after the war and still is. The state collapsed.

People really don’t need to start justifying American war crimes to make Putin’s look worse.
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Actually it doesn't look worse than before. Both invaded independent countries under absolutely made up false propaganda.
Certainly what came afterwards in Iraq was much worse than what they had under Saddam. It also empowered Iran and had destabilized the middle east.
We don't know how the situation in Ukraine is going to end. I certainly hope a lot better than Iraq ended.
 
Foxbatt said:
I am surprised that the Russians have not gone in with Shock and Awe. They seem fairly restricted. They could have flattened a lot like the Americans did in Iraq. But so far they haven't done so.
I wonder if they will increase the intensity if the Ukrainians fight back?
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Not by desire but what else do you expect in a war situation.

And strict restrain arent new in warfare, not out of kind heart but it's logically better not to push your enemy to the point of desperation.

If they kill wantonly every men and women would fought to the last ounce of blood, which is counter productive.
 
Raoul said:
It has been fairly muted compared to what they are capable of. I think they underestimated Ukrainian resolve to fight and presumed much of the country would capitulate fairly quickly. They've also never had to deal with a country of Ukraine's size and are probably figuring things out as they go, which isn't exactly an ideal recipe for success. The thing the Russians have going for them is they have the Ukrainians severely outgunned, and now that they more or less have taken out Ukrainian AAA and have air supremacy, they can start rolling in with heavy armor and artillery. I would be surprised if Kiev will last 48 hours once this happens. Zelinsky and his fam should probably find a way to move to Lviv or Poland before the Kiev get encircled by the Russians.
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Do you think they would really go for Kiev? I mean as you said Ukraine is a huge country and they could never conquer it. They could destroy yes but that doesn't serve their purpose.
Their Navy is very capable but has not been used so far or much according to the information I have seen.
 
Raoul said:
It has been fairly muted compared to what they are capable of. I think they underestimated Ukrainian resolve to fight and presumed much of the country would capitulate fairly quickly. They've also never had to deal with a country of Ukraine's size and are probably figuring things out as they go, which isn't exactly an ideal recipe for success. The thing the Russians have going for them is they have the Ukrainians severely outgunned, and now that they more or less have taken out Ukrainian AAA and have air supremacy, they can start rolling in with heavy armor and artillery. I would be surprised if Kiev will last 48 hours once this happens. Zelinsky and his fam should probably find a way to move to Lviv or Poland before the Kiev get encircled by the Russians.
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It looks like he's come to terms with the fact that he may not survive the next few days. It will be really hard to see him face the fate of Saddam or worse Gaddafi as he's not done anything to deserve that fate. :(
 
Raoul said:
It has been fairly muted compared to what they are capable of. I think they underestimated Ukrainian resolve to fight and presumed much of the country would capitulate fairly quickly. They've also never had to deal with a country of Ukraine's size and are probably figuring things out as they go, which isn't exactly an ideal recipe for success. The thing the Russians have going for them is they have the Ukrainians severely outgunned, and now that they more or less have taken out Ukrainian AAA and have air supremacy, they can start rolling in with heavy armor and artillery. I would be surprised if Kiev will last 48 hours once this happens. Zelinsky and his fam should probably find a way to move to Lviv or Poland before the Kiev get encircled by the Russians.
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Agreed. I think the Ukrainians had the surprise factor going for them today/yesterday. I don't think Russia expected that Ukraine would mount any counter attacks (on the airport for example). These counterattacks seem to have been spontaneous (not an organized plan for the whole country) but was still effective because of the surprise factor. One would however assume that Russia has learned its lesson now and will act accordingly today/tomorrow. If Ukraine manages to repeat those successes in the coming few days then there is more to it than just the 'surprise factor'.
 
MuFc_1992 said:
It looks like he's come to terms with the fact that he may not survive the next few days. It will be really hard to see him face the fate of Saddam or worse Gaddafi as he's not done anything to deserve that fate. :(
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No he doesn't. I mean he probably was one of the best they had.
 
I don’t know enough so forgive me if this is a stupid question, but looking longer term, if Putin is overthrown and Russia gets a chance to reinvent itself, would that be a financial positive for the rest of the world as it pertains to access to Russia natural resources?
 
MuFc_1992 said:
It looks like he's come to terms with the fact that he may not survive the next few days. It will be really hard to see him face the fate of Saddam or worse Gaddafi as he's not done anything to deserve that fate. :(
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His conundrum is how it would affect Ukrainian morale among those who continue to fight, if it were revealed their President fled the country. The latter would of course be the correct thing to do, as he could continue being President in exile during a future insurgency.
 
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