Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

Cardboard elk said:
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I think arming civilians might not be a good idea because of the following reasons:-
1. It makes the civilians a legitimate military target and lets face it they're not trained and many would needlessly die.
2. Russia could wrecklessly kill and claim civilians were armed while they might not actually be.
3. Russian troops could enter cities in civilian clothes and cause chaos from within.

I can see this ending badly.
 
Precaution said:
Anyone savvy on Soviet era history? what was their essential downfall? i see Putin is angry because they broke up in the early 90's and pride and whatnot, its kinda weird how Russia wants so much territory when half if not all of Russia is in poverty... i cant see another Soviet style collapse for Russia or Putin topping himself, as bad as he is, he isnt Hitler and he has more balls than that.
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(Not an expert at all)

Very very briefly:
Their economy stagnated in the mid-70s and started dropping in the 80s. The USSR and Warsaw Pact countries, including Poland, East Germany, the Baltic states, etc. were a multi-ethnic country/entity/group/empire. Tensions which had existed beforehand, erupted once standard of living started stagnating/dropping. In the Warsaw pact countries, the govts were overthrown by their own people. Within the USSR, where (from what I can tell) popular demands were less clear, the leaders of the constituent republics decided to split (into Russia, Ukraine, Georgia, Kazakhstan, etc).

Don't really see it as comparable to Russia now, which is multi-ethnic but not to the same extent, and I don't think it will split if Putin goes.
 
VidaRed said:
If hypothetically a year from now the west starts bombing some random country and putin comes and lectures the world about peace and tolerance he would be rightly called out as a hypocrite.

What to you is whataboutism is for someone else a personal loss. Take off your western tinted glasses, the entire world isn't the west.
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You seem to be trying to justify India's abstention by pointing to the wrongs of countries like the US and the UK.

While at the same time ignoring the fact that the Ukraine is not the US or the UK.

You say Russia was an ally in your struggles against a neighbouring bully, and have criticised other countries for not coming to India's aid.

But at the same time, you defend India for turning it's back on a country being bullied by a neighbour.

You'll go a distance to find someone on here who has been more critical of historical British wrongdoing than I have, but this isn't the thread or the time for it and it's merely yourself you are painting the hypocrite.

And one final point. It is not just a westerncentric thing, or an anti-Indian thing. Both Germany and Italy have been on the end of plenty of criticism for leaving themselves too exposed and reliant on Russian trade to focus on what is right.
 
Rightnr said:
Well done on equaling a guy who's more dangerous to his people than to other nations with flawed democracies.

You and that Fredo guy can go have a cup in the alternative thinking cafe and praise each other.
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Many people outside of the west and russia lay the blame at both sides with varying degrees while westerners are claiming its entirely the fault of russia and russia claiming its entirely the fault of the west.

I reckon both you and russia need to take of those tinted glasses before the world is dragged into a pointless nuke fest, this affects the world.
 
VidaRed said:
I think arming civilians might not be a good idea because of the following reasons:-
1. It makes the civilians a legitimate military target and lets face it they're not trained and many would needlessly die.
2. Russia could wrecklessly kill and claim civilians were armed while they might not actually be.
3. Russian troops could enter cities in civilian clothes and cause chaos from within.

I can see this ending badly.
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That's all true and not all of the problems even. It is still worth doing, there's no choice.
 
Unverified clips and reports of numerous Russian saboteurs in Kyiv giving directions and such. If true, must have been quite the preparation to get them all into Kyiv.

 
VidaRed said:
Many people outside of the west and russia lay the blame at both sides with varying degrees while westerners are claiming its entirely the fault of russia and russia claiming its entirely the fault of the west.

I reckon both you and russia need to take of those tinted glasses before the world is dragged into a pointless nuke fest, this affects the world.
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Whilst I'm by no means a defender of the West on every act, please give one reasonable argument to suggest that anyone other than Putin/Kremlin is to blame in this instance?

I'm not even bothering to say Russia as it is evident that this is the act of a solo-dictator and his cronies alone, not something that represents the entire country.
 
VidaRed said:
Why doesn't nato, russia and these smaller countries in between both of them sign agreements that they won't join nato if russia guarantees it won't invade them ? Russia wants a buffer between them and nato so i dont think they'll mind this arrangement. Imo there should be a buffer between countries having huge militaries and nukes. You (nato) shouldn't want a land border with russia because any small border misunderstanding could kick off a war where nukes are lobbed, trust me when i say this because we (India) are surrounded on two sides with hostile countries with nukes and every year we have skirmishes and exchange of artillery. You dont want that shit on an annual basis.
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Because you can't trust Russian under Putin.
 
Sarni said:
He will kill many Ukrainians and innocent people will die in huge numbers but I am getting a feeling this is a war he can’t win. He won’t control 44 million people who hate him and with every day that passes he is under more and more pressure.
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But Chechnya ... oh wait
 
Boycott said:
For years Putin cultivated this image of being a tough guy and some kind of alpha male chauvanist. Zelensky is the one who has courage and strength. He's the one protecting his people and history will remember him as a great leader.
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The images of Zelensky in combat gear on the streets with his people rallying behind his example, compared to the images of Russians and Georgians protesting in the streets must be absolutely killing Putin.
 
I definitely did not have the "US and UK were horrific to India so feck Ukraine" box on my bingo card, but here we are.
 
VidaRed said:
Many people outside of the west and russia lay the blame at both sides with varying degrees while westerners are claiming its entirely the fault of russia and russia claiming its entirely the fault of the west.

I reckon both you and russia need to take of those tinted glasses before the world is dragged into a pointless nuke fest, this affects the world.
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And I reckon you like to push an agenda without knowing your audience. That's why I try not to disclose too much, so I get a laugh every time someone makes an assumption.

As for the many people, many of those other people's word is not worth the paper it's written on because countries usually serve their self-interests e.g. China who refused to declare this war an invasion. So, with that in mind, I'd take the US over Russia and China any day of the week.

With that being said, I hope Putin chokes on his 'victory' which I'm sure he'll achieve one way or another.
 
IWat said:
How far back are we going here? I distinctly remember my granddad stuttering and struggling to speak about WW2 when silly child me asked him about what he did because we were learning about it at school.

Perhaps you guys on the continent can sort your own shit out for a change?
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Or stay out of it and stay neutral cowards, like Sweden, say.
 
Apparently it's a law in Ukraine now that 18-60 year old males cannot leave the country. If true, that seems wrong. If people want to stay and fight, that's their choice, and many will, but you shouldn't be forcing people to stay either.
 
VidaRed said:
Many people outside of the west and russia lay the blame at both sides with varying degrees while westerners are claiming its entirely the fault of russia and russia claiming its entirely the fault of the west.

I reckon both you and russia need to take of those tinted glasses before the world is dragged into a pointless nuke fest, this affects the world.
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We're now both-sidesing one country invading another?
 
Mciahel Goodman said:
Apparently it's a law in Ukraine now that 18-60 year old males cannot leave the country. If true, that seems wrong. If people want to stay and fight, that's their choice, and many will, but you shouldn't be forcing people to stay either.
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Really disturbing tbh. Most of them will die if fighting continues.
 
What was the consensus on Zelenskyy from Ukrainians prior to all this unfolding? Or were opinions split by region?
 
VidaRed said:
I think arming civilians might not be a good idea because of the following reasons:-
1. It makes the civilians a legitimate military target and lets face it they're not trained and many would needlessly die.
2. Russia could wrecklessly kill and claim civilians were armed while they might not actually be.
3. Russian troops could enter cities in civilian clothes and cause chaos from within.

I can see this ending badly.
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If they didn’t then them all hope is lost. Why wouldn’t they fight for their country?
 
Mciahel Goodman said:
Apparently it's a law in Ukraine now that 18-60 year old males cannot leave the country. If true, that seems wrong. If people want to stay and fight, that's their choice, and many will, but you shouldn't be forcing people to stay either.
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This a war for survival. Be under no illusion that 'normal' wishful thinking applies.

I disagree with this and would try to get out ASAP but anyone expecting anything else would be naive.

The most annoying thing is how it's men only but that's just typical.
 
berbatrick said:
(Not an expert at all)

Very very briefly:
Their economy stagnated in the mid-70s and started dropping in the 80s. The USSR and Warsaw Pact countries, including Poland, East Germany, the Baltic states, etc. were a multi-ethnic country/entity/group/empire. Tensions which had existed beforehand, erupted once standard of living started stagnating/dropping. In the Warsaw pact countries, the govts were overthrown by their own people. Within the USSR, where (from what I can tell) popular demands were less clear, the leaders of the constituent republics decided to split (into Russia, Ukraine, Georgia, Kazakhstan, etc).

Don't really see it as comparable to Russia now, which is multi-ethnic but not to the same extent, and I don't think it will split if Putin goes.
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I do remember reading a long time ago that Putin blamed the west and specifically America for sowing the ethinic divisions that went onto fragment the soviet union.
 
diarm said:
You seem to be trying to justify India's abstention by pointing to the wrongs of countries like the US and the UK.

While at the same time ignoring the fact that the Ukraine is not the US or the UK.

You say Russia was an ally in your struggles against a neighbouring bully, and have criticised other countries for not coming to India's aid.

But at the same time, you defend India for turning it's back on a country being bullied by a neighbour.

You'll go a distance to find someone on here who has been more critical of historical British wrongdoing than I have, but this isn't the thread or the time for it and it's merely yourself you are painting the hypocrite.

And one final point. It is not just a westerncentric thing, or an anti-Indian thing. Both Germany and Italy have been on the end of plenty of criticism for leaving themselves too exposed and reliant on Russian trade to focus on what is right.
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Well said.
 
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