The chase for 4th place (not top 4)

Nish115 said:
What point are you trying to make?

We have a side which is inexperienced, and quite frankly not as good as United or Spurs. Yet, we are more consistent and beating most the teams we are meant to be. This is due to our own coaching and management. It has absolutely nothing to do with United.

You are just completely ignoring my point on how we have the same PPG atm as any normal top 4 challenger in previous history? So please do tell me why United doing poorly, means somehow we are being gifted top 4? I just don't understand your point. And again please tell me how we've been completely crap for most the season, interested to hear more about that one too despite every single metric saying otherwise?

We were absolutely crap for the first 3 games of the season. Since then (the majority of the season), we've actually been pretty consistent and quite good. Yet somehow we are just fluky and being gifted 4th.

Just mixed messages. Half the people on here don't rate Arteta or Arsenal and think we're crap. The other half think we are bottle jobs if we don't get 4th.

If you've given up that's down to your management and players. We could have given up after we got slapped by Liverpool. Or as you say, after we lost to Everton and United back to back, but we didn't.
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This is all true. But the truth is also that United are having one of the worst seasons since Sir Alex left, a big reason as of why you will most likely be getting CL qualification. That is my point but you seem to refuse to accept it. I've watched you guys play this season and you are by no means an impressive team, a bit more competition from other sides and you would likely finish 5th or 6th.
 
BlueHaze said:
This is all true. But the truth is also that United are having one of the worst seasons since Sir Alex left, a big reason as of why you will most likely be getting CL qualification. That is my point but you seem to refuse to accept it. I've watched you guys play this season and you are by no means an impressive team, a bit more competition from other sides and you would likely finish 5th or 6th.
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Well yes if United performed as they could have on paper, they well and truely could have got 75+ points. But, we aren't being gifted anything. We are earning it by grinding out results when we have to.

We've had up and down periods for sure, but the stats don't lie, and we've been for the majority of the season, the 3rd or 4th best team in the league. And, ever since we dropped Auba we've actually been playing very well on top of it too.
 
BlueHaze said:
This is all true. But the truth is also that United are having one of the worst seasons since Sir Alex left, a big reason as of why you will most likely be getting CL qualification. That is my point but you seem to refuse to accept it. I've watched you guys play this season and you are by no means an impressive team, a bit more competition from other sides and you would likely finish 5th or 6th.
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Err, bud, you do realise that since Ferguson left almost a decade ago now, you have only got over 70 points twice.

You are currently on target for 66/67.
 
Leftback99 said:
Considering they are the same except we play City, they play West Ham (+ Watford, Villa, Southampton) how do you 'completely disagree'?
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Because Villa and Southampton are big banana skins and the fact their games in hand are absolute killers. Even Newcastle away isn’t Looking that bright. Just need a result at the Emirates to ram it home. Don’t they normally struggle v Brighton and their movement as well?
 
Arsenal finishing top 4 ahead of us and watching them play in CL while we rot in EL will be a travesty.

But our circus of a team kinda deserve such humiliation to be totally honest, for what they have been putting on the pitch this season.
 
BlueHaze said:
This is all true. But the truth is also that United are having one of the worst seasons since Sir Alex left, a big reason as of why you will most likely be getting CL qualification. That is my point but you seem to refuse to accept it. I've watched you guys play this season and you are by no means an impressive team, a bit more competition from other sides and you would likely finish 5th or 6th.
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You seem to basically be agreeing. The only difference of opinion looks like being the relevance of the point you’re making.

City, Liverpool, Chelsea and United all should be finishing above Arsenal, if the word “should” equates to expectations related to squad strength and performance in recent seasons. So pointing out that Arsenal have a good chance at the finishing in the top four because one or more of those four teams is underperforming is both true and… obvious.

It’s not the only reason, though. Or even the main one. If Arsenal amass roughly the amount of points that usually lands you in the top four, then United’s performance throughout the season would be a pretty minor factor in where Arsenal finish.
 
cyberman said:
their games in hand are absolute killers.
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This game in hand dissecting needs to stop. We have 14 games left, including Spurs, Chelsea and Liverpool.

Utd have 11 games left including Spurs, Chelsea, Liverpool, and also Man City.
 
After complete circus in management last 3 years, we will finish where we deserve to finish; 5th.
And i am not fussed about it. One year without CL will allow us to completely focus on PL and with right manager and transfers, challenge for it.
 
SAFMUTD said:
Its over for us after today, next games are against City away, home vs Spurs and Liverpool away. If we're lucky we'll take 3 points from those.

It's over, hopefully we can get 5th place, if not then we better end up 8th or below. That Conference league shit is only going to harm us.
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The conference league would be good to test young players and substitutes for competitive pace.
Gaining experience is important for these players.
 
Horrendous next three league games, definitely now relying on Arsenal slipping up a few times to let us back in
 
Niemans said:
The conference league would be good to test young players and substitutes for competitive pace.
Gaining experience is important for these players.
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That's what the cups are for, we don't need to travel around Europe for a shit cup to do that.
 
Andycoleno9 said:
After complete circus in management last 3 years, we will finish where we deserve to finish; 5th.
And i am not fussed about it. One year without CL will allow us to completely focus on PL and with right manager and transfers, challenge for it.
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Genuine question, has any English team that's been in a Europa League campaign managed to challenge for the league the same season?
 
GoonerBear said:
Genuine question, has any English team that's been in a Europa League campaign managed to challenge for the league the same season?
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Without checking it (so i could be wrong). Leicester and Chelsea won it. Can't remember were Spurs in CL when they were "fighting" with Leicester.
 
GoonerBear said:
Genuine question, has any English team that's been in a Europa League campaign managed to challenge for the league the same season?
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Not many teams go from 5th or lower to challenging in the next season. It's not really a Europa League thing.
 
SAFMUTD said:
That's what the cups are for, we don't need to travel around Europe for a shit cup to do that.
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In the first rounds United will play teams of very low category. Elanga, Mejbri and other players there won't get experience. And in rounds against strong teams they won't play. In the league conference yes.

But hey, we also don't know who the next coach will be and what plans there are.
 
GoonerBear said:
Genuine question, has any English team that's been in a Europa League campaign managed to challenge for the league the same season?
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Interesting question. Doubt there are many if any. Hope someone can confirm it.
 
Leftback99 said:
Not many teams go from 5th or lower to challenging in the next season. It's not really a Europa League thing.
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Liverpool in their 'Gerrard slip' season did it. Leicester went from fighting relegation to winning the title next season. Conte took over after Chelsea finished mid table to win the title. Whereas challenging for the title while in Europa I'm struggling to think of any examples.
 
MalBot said:
Liverpool in their 'Gerrard slip' season did it. Leicester went from fighting relegation to winning the title next season. Conte took over after Chelsea finished mid table to win the title.
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And what they all have in common is no European football at all.
 
MalBot said:
Liverpool in their 'Gerrard slip' season did it. Leicester went from fighting relegation to winning the title next season. Conte took over after Chelsea finished mid table to win the title. Whereas challenging for the title while in Europa I'm struggling to think of any examples.
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Arsenal will make CL but will be nowhere near the title next season. Europa isn't the issue.

(We won't challenge for the title next season either whether we're CL, EL, ECL or none).
 
cyberman said:
Because Villa and Southampton are big banana skins and the fact their games in hand are absolute killers. Even Newcastle away isn’t Looking that bright. Just need a result at the Emirates to ram it home. Don’t they normally struggle v Brighton and their movement as well?
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They only need to win 7 of their last 14 to get to 66 points so add in a couple of draws and that's practically 70 points. Arsenal do have plenty of tricky fixtures left and they've choked 4th a couple of times in last 5 years but ultimately just needing a 50% win ratio for rest of the season is a very decent place to be in.

For Man. United to get to 68 points you need to win 7 of your last 11 now so basically no margin for error if you don't win any of Liverpool, Man. City or Arsenal away.

Basically you need to win your final five at OT to have any chance of 4th now and that's far from a given due to your record in 2022 and still having to play likes of Spurs and Chelsea.
 
Niemans said:
In the first rounds United will play teams of very low category. Elanga, Mejbri and other players there won't get experience. And in rounds against strong teams they won't play. In the league conference yes.

But hey, we also don't know who the next coach will be and what plans there are.
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Serious question, do you think there's much difference between League One and conference league teams?
 
SAFMUTD said:
Serious question, do you think there's much difference between League One and conference league teams?
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Psv, Roma, Rennes, Vitesse, Feyenord, CSKA Sofía...

And also the more games the under-23 players play, better it will be.
 
That late goal for Arsenal and our draw today just makes it always certain that Arsenal will get it.
 
We have a better chance of winning the Champions League than finishing 4th. I see some progress in the way we play but we are still too vulnerable defensively and both City and Liverpool will run us over and we cannot expect to win more than maximum half of the other remaining matches, which will not be enough.
Finishing top 4 is also not as important as getting some structure in to the Management and the team, and start building up a strong team for the future.
That involves letting go of players who thinks they are above the club and build a team around players who are proud of representing Manchester United and who do not question the Manager or his decisions, whoever that Manager might be.
 
Paul_Scholes18 said:
That late goal for Arsenal and our draw today just makes it always certain that Arsenal will get it.
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We still have to play them but if we don't get anything from City and Liverpool this month and they win their games in hand, it's over for us.
 
peridigm said:
We still have to play them but if we don't get anything from City and Liverpool this month and they win their games in hand, it's over for us.
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Yeah just think Arsenal impress more. They are not amazing and we can beat them, but I trust them vs the weaker sides more than us.
 
If we manage to get top 4 it is an indictment to Spurs and Arsenal. Spurs in fairness are shite, but we should be catchable. Today we were a disgrace. Fred does not deserve to be at this club, neither does AWB. Pogba is a fraud of the highest level.
 
Leftback99 said:
Arsenal will make CL but will be nowhere near the title next season. Europa isn't the issue.

(We won't challenge for the title next season either whether we're CL, EL, ECL or none).
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Arsenal is in rebuilding phase. 4th place is a big challenge already let alone title
 
Yagami said:
We threw the towel in when we refused to bring in a midfielder in January. It's an Arsenal and Tottenham race.
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This is a key point. We didn’t need to bring in THE midfielder, but we needed to bring in A midfielder who could orchestrate the transition from defense to offense better than either McTominay or Fred can.

But no, we did not. We will pay for this mistake.
 
lex talionis said:
This is a key point. We didn’t need to bring in THE midfielder, but we needed to bring in A midfielder who could orchestrate the transition from defense to offense better than either McTominay or Fred can.

But no, we did not. We will pay for this mistake.
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We constantly see what a fresh Matic offers, but we can't rely on him as he stays fresh for as long as milk out the fridge. There were midfielders we could've got who offered what he does more consistently, too, which is the frustrating part.
 
Yagami said:
We constantly see what a fresh Matic offers, but we can't rely on him as he stays fresh for as long as milk out the fridge. There were midfielders we could've got who offered what he does more consistently, too, which is the frustrating part.
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Yeah not signing much quality in that midfield area is really hurting us on a regular basis
 
Utd are bottling the league this year. Too many draws against weak opposition. They have to beat the big boys now to stand a chance.
 
ThierryHenry14 said:
Arsenal is in rebuilding phase. 4th place is a big challenge already let alone title
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Arsenal are almost certainly ahead of schedule as a team, whilst we are clearly not great, I can see progress and direction. To think we can challenge next season is ridiculous, nobody thinks that, especially as we likely won't have the benefit of playing once a week. If you offered me 4th/4th now for this season and next I would take your hand off.

I think if the young core group we have (8 of our current starting 11 are 23 and under) stay together we can look to challenge in 2-3 years time. Although it is so difficult with City's finance/Pep, and Klopp being the best manager alive.
 
Leftback99 said:
Arsenal wouldn't be within 5 points if they had already played Liverpool, City and Spurs.

Anyone can drop points to Wolves and Brighton, they are decent sides.
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well actually one of Arsenals games in hand is against Spurs so even if they lose they're still within 5 points of Chelsea
 
Arsenal full on favs for 4th, no Europen games games in hand and winning when they shouldn't. I'd rather UTD finish 8th than a Europa fecking league place. If we do finish in Europa league conference whatever its called, play at least 4 to 5 under 23s in it.
 
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