Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

Not the Holocaust. I also don't think Russification compares to the Holodomor, in sheer horror. I get that many Ukrainians feel like this is the end, but I just don't think evoking the Holocaust even for an aggressive war of expansion is right. Putin is not going to try to exterminate the people of Ukraine, he just isn't.
The original juxtaposition of the two tweets wasn’t intended to imply that, so we are getting a little off-track. It was intended to contrast the Russians employing a denazification narrative, yet managing to deliver collateral damage to one of the key sites of Holocaust remembrance.

As to there being a potential holocaust of Ukrainians, no, not in the sense of what Nazi Germany did, at least not in the short term, but reprisals to resistors would happen openly. Russia already suppresses any opposition sentiment at home.

I’m also in no doubt that should Putin seize Ukraine, he and any continuity successors would embark on a programme that would look to erode Ukrainian identity, eliminate Ukrainian nationalism and push the Ukrainian language to the margins, suffocated by Russia’s cultural output. What do you think the threats to “decommunise” and “denazify” Ukraine meant? What do you think is meant by questioning Ukraine’s right to even exist and the “Ukrainian question”? Russia has sought to eliminate other identities and homogenise the people in its empire for over a century.

Even now, it seems as if China wants to eradicate Uighur identity, and we all seem powerless to stop it. That seems to be happening in plain sight.
 
Can you cnuts stop saying Putler? It’s not having the impact you think it is by comparing him to that other fella. It’s just taking away from the actual named culprit Putin.
Nah, I will call him putler. Because, if I call him Putin, it will be his real surname. But Putler is his nature. So it is either putler, botoxface, bunkergnome or covidophobe.
 
I am very likely to have lost 6-7 friends of mine in Ukraine in the last 4-5 days. Will call the fecker all names. They were innocent great people with families. Feck him.
 
I am very likely to have lost 6-7 friends of mine in Ukraine in the last 4-5 days. Will call the fecker all names. They were innocent great people with families. Feck him.

I have several who aren't responding (obviously understandable given the circumstances) and don't know their status. One of particular concern in Kherson.
 
I've also seen Lilliputin which I thought was quite funny and apt.
Lilliputin is another one too. I just do not know what I will tell to those 13 children of the friends of mine. I will miss their fathers forever.
 
I am very likely to have lost 6-7 friends of mine in Ukraine in the last 4-5 days. Will call the fecker all names. They were innocent great people with families. Feck him.
Well unlike your "very likely" I for certain have lost two friends in Ukraine so does that trump your "I'll call him whatever I want" card or is it actually a pretty pointless comparison to make and does incredible injustice to their memories?

Call him what you want, but I have a right not to like it. And playing the fecking "I have dead friends" card as a reason to defend it is a load of shit.
 
Well unlike your "very likely" I for certain have lost two friends in Ukraine so does that trump your "I'll call him whatever I want" card or is it actually a pretty pointless comparison to make and does incredible injustice to their memories?

Call him what you want, but I have a right not to like it. And playing the fecking "I have dead friends" card as a reason to defend it is a load of shit.
It was you who asked to stop calling him putler, which he is. You do not like it is okay. You are as free as a bird after all. I am not playing the card, I call him putler for the atrocities he has committed. The one and only cnut in recent years who invaded countries, killed people, eradicated opposition and is now playing a nukes card. Putler he is and that is how he will be remembered. By the way Putler has been in use for years now.
 
That’s not a helpful comparison. Britain is an island with, needless to say, fixed borders, and, within that, England is just about the oldest nation state in Europe. Ukraine has existed an independent entity since 1991 and only for very brief periods before then. It is a separate nation rather than an appendage to Russia or Poland but I don’t see the reason for an absolutist view of its territorial scope when the price is so high. If they emerge without Crimea and potentially without the Donbass but with a meaningful NATO security guarantee and a roadmap to EU integration (and without their country being razed while we cheer them on from armchairs in Western Europe), that is a big strategic win in the grander scheme of things.
Sorry, but that’s a very diminishing view of Ukrainian history. It’s like arguing the Scottish people cannot be precious about wanting independence and there’s been no Scotland since 1707. The Soviet Union was after all a supposed union of different republic states.

Further back than that it gets messy, but so does the storytelling behind the nation building of many big “permanent” states. Italy and Germany as we know them have only existed in a similar fashion to what they do now for 150-odd years. Ukraine in this regard is no different tracing its history all the way back to the Kyivan Rus’ and Ruthenia.

I actually agree with your wider sentiment though that NATO and/or EU membership is just a big factor as keeping Donbas and Crimea, but Russia is not gonna be keen on any of that.
 


I don't know where it was and when (really hard to know these day) but the fact that we keep seeing fire for a while after the blast would indicate it hit something flamable on the ground.
 
Just talked to someone in Odessa

Was told its calm at the moment, but there are 6 ships with 4,000 troops loitering offshore. Beaches have been heavily mined, apparently.
 
There are questions over the legalities of wars in Syria and Iraq, but those regions were exceptionally volatile and conflict-ridden anyway. Just as a footnote, there are 250 mass graves in Iraq that are dating from 1979-2003, the time of Saddam's rule. I don't know how that can be blamed upon the West. Anyone who is of the Shiite faith or who is Kurdish will be glad that the world was rid of Saddam. As a hardline Sunni, Saddam did not view them as being Iraqi, so he felt that he could do with them what he wished.

Regardless of how you feel about Ukraine under its current rule, Iraq was a country where in a single year literally tens of thousands of kurds were killed using chemicals, and that is verified by independent human rights groups. I don't know how this can be compared to the situation in the Ukraine, which despite having problems with separatists, has nothing approaching that level of outright genocide of people on ethnic grounds.

Assad was arguably far worse than even Saddam. It was the world's responsibility to get rid of them and had the west done nothing, people still would have died unjustly. Again, this is not comparable to the situation in the Ukraine. Atrocities were happening in the region and would have gone on happening without intervention.

The Ukrainian conflict is an entirely different proposition and is about a hostile invading force taking over a peaceful country that has long been concerned for its safety since Soviet rule broke down.

I really don't think we do ourselves any favours by comparing like-for-like with ME wars. It merely fudges a very complex issue. In saying that, I do believe that opposition towards Western intervention often manifests as unwitting tacit support for blood-lust dictators, and their right to hold entire ethnic groups under their anvil.
Well said.
 
As the Kenyan delegate to the UN noted the other day, it serves no good in a post-colonial world to continually resurrect these arguments, when former empire or former colony.



Unfortunately many African nations didn't actually do what he just said.

He is right though.
 
Just talked to someone in Odessa

Was told its calm at the moment, but there are 6 ships with 4,000 troops loitering offshore. Beaches have been heavily mined, apparently.

Stupid question perhaps but are mines permissible warfare? Always thought they were outlawed for some reason.