Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

[The Corinthian]

Via telephones and the Internet generally. I’m not being facetious.

Youre missing the point somewhat. Ukraine isn’t allowing these non-white foreign nationals to leave. If you can make arrangements to get home in Poland or Moldova or wherever but Ukraine aren’t physically letting you into these countries then what?

If you don’t have visa-free access to a country, citizens will or should be engaging their embassy to ensure they can enter a neighbouring one. Most embassies will do this automatically in such a situation, so Nigeria would agree with Hungary/EU to give their citizens visa-free access. I imagine in such cases that such citizens would still have a fair bit of paperwork that needs to be done.

Again, these are foreign nationals on work or student visas. They have a right to be there but also the same right to leave. You need to stop making excuses for what is clearly a racist policy. Indian embassy were able to charter flights home from Poland…for the students that made it there. Loads didn’t. In fact one Indian student has died at the hands of Russian shelling. You can’t not let these people through and blame bureaucracy.

here’s some further examples:

 

[Enigma_87]

We definitely need to do more on nuclear disarmament. We can't have despots wanting to blow up the world every 50 years.

Absolutely. These events should be a wake up call to all and steps needs to be done in that direction.

 

[The Corinthian]

Isn't it generally a policy to look after your own people before those of another nation?

Also, what have/are the countries of the others doing to help?

No - in times of crises foreign nationals and diplomats are given allowances to leave ahead of anyone else. And obviously the amount of help these other countries can offer is severely limited if their own citizens aren’t being allowed to leave the country due to a racist policy at the border.

 

[ShoePolish]

Absolutely. These events should be a wake up call to all and steps needs to be done in that direction.

Problem would be getting everyone on board. How do you stop likes of North Korea, Iran from laying them down? Probably Pakistan and India too?

 

[CassiusClaymore]

Problem would be getting everyone on board. How do you stop likes of North Korea, Iran from laying them down? Probably Pakistan and India too?

If anything this will have the opposite effect. Ukraine got rid of theirs and now they've been invaded.

 

[Jerch]

You kinda forgot to factor in what the Ukrainians want in your little scenario here.

The end game is simply that a free and democratic sovereign nation retains its freedom and sovereignty without "the west" or Russia deciding for them if they should be a buffer state etc.

I totally understand that I'm forgetting that factor but if u make a proposition to Ukraine to be:
- be blown into oblivion in hope of to be part of Nato and EU someday
- get funds to rebuild from catastrophy that already happened and to develop rapidly into prospective state with clear directions that Nato and EU is not a possibility but on the other hand Russian influence is also not a possibility

To be free democratic sovereign nations sounds very nice until u look into reality that this means that they want into EU and Nato which Russia is never gonna allow and contrary to my belief earlier in this crisis, reading and looking more into it, I think a-bomb is not out of question if things go very south for Russia.

 

[RedTiger]

not playing devil’s advocate but how many more days do russia need to survive whilst still invading before the majority of westerners shift their focus elsewhere and largely forget about it? the bbc website is still very dominated by the war, as are the new channels, except when the sky presenter smiles and says “now for a quick look at the weather.”

but how long before other stories start to filter to the top of the page?

I reckon 6 weeks before it drops down the news list, not a dramatic drop but a slight lessening of intrest.

 

[Enigma_87]

Problem would be getting everyone on board. How do you stop likes of North Korea, Iran from laying them down? Probably Pakistan and India too?

Economical sanctions and restrictions. For example Iran. It's a wishful thinking of course as neither US or Russia will be aboard that idea.

 

[Jerch]

Yes, but there is no other way. Leave him get Ukraine easily, in 2 years it is gonna be Baltics, in 4 Romania/Bulgaria, and in 6 Poland. Also, China would get Taiwan.

The nuclear force is called deterrent because that is that purpose. All actors should know that using it, is the end. It is not something to threaten and get some advantage (land/invading countries etc), cause that just makes the bully threat more. I guess next time it is gonna be Poland is part of Russia and if anyone resists, I nuke the world.


So, I think to prevent a nuclear war, the West should actually risk going into a nuclear war.

It's not letting him to get Ukraine but to create buffer state. By that I mean to prevent Ukraine to be under either influence.

 

[UpWithRivers]

What is the endgame for west with these sanctions and sending arms to Ukraine? While i supported it in the beginning it is starting to look very dangerous.

We are just cornering Putin more and more. No matter how west tries to paint that Russia failed so far noone is denying that Russia went easy on Ukraine in the first days.
Western leaders and especially people from USA acknowledged that and even stated that violence from Russia is likely to increase which we already seeing little by little but we are definitely far away from extreme measures.
People in Russian are not gonna overthrow Putin because he will take extreme actions before that happens.

The only way for me this stops escalating is to sit down with Russia and negotiate some kind of the deal.
West and Russia should really look into making Ukraine a buffer state, set up the government that is agreed with both sides and be watched on from both sides. Basically make Ukraine into Switzerland between Russia and Nato. But I'm afraid that west is never gonna back down to that point and it could be disastrous. Especially with the public support people on the west are giving to western states that option is looking less and less likely.

Not going through the negotiation route leads could result in my opinion in:
-Russia takes over Ukraine easily in next days/weeks but west doesn't acknowledge and it leads in more tension between west and Russia especially because of the impacts of the sanctions on Russian people (not likely that Russia will take over easily anyway)
-Ukraine keep resistance strong and impact of sanctions from the west and Ukraine getting better and better equiped leads Putin to take more and more extreme measures to end this as fast as possible (the most likely scenario)

In both cases tensions will increase and in both cases we will keep cornering Putin and it's very dangerous proposition which could lead into global catastrophy.

And sadly I really can't see any other outcome.

Russia has said for years that it wont allow Ukraine to become a Nato country. Thats the whole reason for the war. If it remained a neutral state then this war would not have happened. On one hand its a democracy and they should damn well be able to choose if they want to be Nato or not. On the other hand if they just let it be and remained a neutral state they wouldn't have been flattened by Russia. They are damned if they do and damned if they dont. They cant and will not back down now. The endgame is Russia neutralizes Ukraine. They make it impossible for it to become Nato and at the same time sets up president that any of the other countries cant as well - Latvia, Estonia, Finland and yes even Belarus (they could elect a West leaning politician in the future). They have already achieved this objective no matter what happens in Ukraine. I cannot see any of those countries joining Nato. If they do they risk the same treatment as Ukraine. Maybe Finland would get away with it.

The Wests endgame is to demonize Russia. This will make it so all these countries dont lean towards Russia like Belarus has. Russia could even be influencing countries like Czech, Poland etc and trying to elect pro Russian governments. Its the game that has been played since the second world war. Also they have legitimate reasons to fk up the Russian economy and turn the world against them.

 

[hellhunter]

It's not letting him to get Ukraine but to create buffer state.

Which would potentially override the will of a free and democratic country. I fail to see how that's a desirable outcome.

 

[africanspur]

Isn't it generally a policy to look after your own people before those of another nation?

Also, what have/are the countries of the others doing to help?

Then why are we bothering to do anything at all to help then?

If we're alright in the UK/ Western Europe, why aren't we looking after our own before those of another nation?

 

[fergieisold]

Russia has said for years that it wont allow Ukraine to become a Nato country. Thats the whole reason for the war. If it remained a neutral state then this war would not have happened. On one hand its a democracy and they should damn well be able to choose if they want to be Nato or not. On the other hand if they just let it be and remained a neutral state they wouldn't have been flattened by Russia. They are damned if they do and damned if they dont. They cant and will not back down now. The endgame is Russia neutralizes Ukraine. They make it impossible for it to become Nato and at the same time sets up president that any of the other countries cant as well - Latvia, Estonia, Finland and yes even Belarus (they could elect a West leaning politician in the future). They have already achieved this objective no matter what happens in Ukraine. I cannot see any of those countries joining Nato. If they do they risk the same treatment as Ukraine. Maybe Finland would get away with it.

The Wests endgame is to demonize Russia. This will make it so all these countries dont lean towards Russia like Belarus has. Russia could even be influencing countries like Czech, Poland etc and trying to elect pro Russian governments. Its the game that has been played since the second world war. Also they have legitimate reasons to fk up the Russian economy and turn the world against them.

Well considering the past week it appears well justified to me.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

I totally understand that I'm forgetting that factor but if u make a proposition to Ukraine to be:
- be blown into oblivion in hope of to be part of Nato and EU someday
- get funds to rebuild from catastrophy that already happened and to develop rapidly into prospective state with clear directions that Nato and EU is not a possibility but on the other hand Russian influence is also not a possibility

To be free democratic sovereign nations sounds very nice until u look into reality that this means that they want into EU and Nato which Russia is never gonna allow and contrary to my belief earlier in this crisis, reading and looking more into it, I think a-bomb is not out of question if things go very south for Russia.

The biggest problem is that any promise from Russia isn't worth the paper it's printed on. They signed the Budapest Agreement in the 90s and that was pretty much torn up when they invaded Crimea.

 

[hellhunter]

Russia has said for years that it wont allow Ukraine to become a Nato country. Thats the whole reason for the war. If it remained a neutral state then this war would not have happened. On one hand its a democracy and they should damn well be able to choose if they want to be Nato or not. On the other hand if they just let it be and remained a neutral state they wouldn't have been flattened by Russia. They are damned if they do and damned if they dont. They cant and will not back down now. The endgame is Russia neutralizes Ukraine. They make it impossible for it to become Nato and at the same time sets up president that any of the other countries cant as well - Latvia, Estonia, Finland and yes even Belarus (they could elect a West leaning politician in the future). They have already achieved this objective no matter what happens in Ukraine. I cannot see any of those countries joining Nato. If they do they risk the same treatment as Ukraine. Maybe Finland would get away with it.

The Wests endgame is to demonize Russia. This will make it so all these countries dont lean towards Russia like Belarus has. Russia could even be influencing countries like Czech, Poland etc and trying to elect pro Russian governments. Its the game that has been played since the second world war. Also they have legitimate reasons to fk up the Russian economy and turn the world against them.

They're already part of NATO

 

[cyberman]

The biggest problem is that any promise from Russia isn't worth the paper it's printed on. They signed the Budapest Agreement in the 90s and that was pretty much torn up when they invaded Crimea.

It’s their second invasion within the last 8 years! I’m not surprised Ukraine aren’t bending to Russias demands simply because they’re fecking up this invasion and are maybe looking to save face.

 

[Revan]

Russia has said for years that it wont allow Ukraine to become a Nato country. Thats the whole reason for the war. If it remained a neutral state then this war would not have happened. On one hand its a democracy and they should damn well be able to choose if they want to be Nato or not. On the other hand if they just let it be and remained a neutral state they wouldn't have been flattened by Russia. They are damned if they do and damned if they dont. They cant and will not back down now. The endgame is Russia neutralizes Ukraine. They make it impossible for it to become Nato and at the same time sets up president that any of the other countries cant as well - Latvia, Estonia, Finland and yes even Belarus (they could elect a West leaning politician in the future). They have already achieved this objective no matter what happens in Ukraine. I cannot see any of those countries joining Nato. If they do they risk the same treatment as Ukraine. Maybe Finland would get away with it.

The Wests endgame is to demonize Russia. This will make it so all these countries dont lean towards Russia like Belarus has. Russia could even be influencing countries like Czech, Poland etc and trying to elect pro Russian governments. Its the game that has been played since the second world war. Also they have legitimate reasons to fk up the Russian economy and turn the world against them.

They have been in NATO since 2004.

 

[B20]

Russia has said for years that it wont allow Ukraine to become a Nato country. Thats the whole reason for the war. If it remained a neutral state then this war would not have happened. On one hand its a democracy and they should damn well be able to choose if they want to be Nato or not. On the other hand if they just let it be and remained a neutral state they wouldn't have been flattened by Russia. They are damned if they do and damned if they dont. They cant and will not back down now. The endgame is Russia neutralizes Ukraine. They make it impossible for it to become Nato and at the same time sets up president that any of the other countries cant as well - Latvia, Estonia, Finland and yes even Belarus (they could elect a West leaning politician in the future). They have already achieved this objective no matter what happens in Ukraine. I cannot see any of those countries joining Nato. If they do they risk the same treatment as Ukraine. Maybe Finland would get away with it.

The Wests endgame is to demonize Russia. This will make it so all these countries dont lean towards Russia like Belarus has. Russia could even be influencing countries like Czech, Poland etc and trying to elect pro Russian governments. Its the game that has been played since the second world war. Also they have legitimate reasons to fk up the Russian economy and turn the world against them.

This is bullshit though. NATO is the pretext not the reason. He wanted Ukraine and there is every reason to believe he'd have taken it regardless of whether NATO was on the table or not.

The only reason these countries wish to join NATOs defence league is because they know that they are not safe from Russian invasion.

 

[Jerch]

Which would potentially override the will of a free and democratic country. I fail to see how that's a desirable outcome.

Tbf only 44% of countries in the world is free and democratic. Arguably even less true democratic countries.
When the world peace is at stake I don't think we should push free and democratic narrative no matter what.

 

[Revan]

It's not letting him to get Ukraine but to create buffer state. By that I mean to prevent Ukraine to be under either influence.

I don't think this has to do much with Ukraine wanting to join NATO, and everything with Putin trying to recreate the Russian empire.

He has already put many other requests, including removing NATO members that entered after 1997 (Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria, Slovenia, Croatia, N. Macedonia, Montenegro, Albania), in addition to removing the sanctions and the US removing the nuclear weapons from Europe.

Give these to him, and he'll start asking for East Germany soon.

 

[TMDaines]

Youre missing the point somewhat.

You have two groups of people:

A) Ukrainian/EU nationals, 5 mins to process each person (for both the Ukrainian and Polish border combined) given routine visa-free access to the Schengen Zone
B) Nationals of 3rd countries, 15 mins to process each person (for both the Ukrainian and Polish border combined) given no routine visa-free access to the Schengen Zone

Which group do both sides of the border prioritise processing, both first the Ukrainian border agency and then secondly the Polish border agency, when your only goal is to maximise the throughput of people through the border? The answer to that question is obvious. There's tens of thousands of people at these borders waiting to cross. If you want to keep the maximum number of people moving, you focus on the low hanging fruit, group A, otherwise you are just going to have an ever-greater group of people having ever-greater wait times.

Now when you consider the demographics of the two groups and one will be slanted to men of student and working age, it's not just that group A is quicker to process and can have a greater flow rate, the demographics of group A will mean much of that group will be given ever greater priority, considering Ukrainian men of student and working age cannot cross and group A will therefore be mostly made up of women, children, elderly and people with disabilities.

I can't add any more on this issue, so I won't continue this conversation other than to say the following:

Racism is awful. Racism should be condemned. If border staff are discriminating based on skin colour or race, rather than the passport/visa status, of people trying to cross the border, whether on foot, by car or by train, then that too should be condemned. I'm sure border staff have made mistakes and will have revised policies in what will have been an unprecedented humanitarian situation that you simply cannot prepare for. But if you are expecting Ukraine and Poland to inefficiently manage their borders and operate a strict system of first-come-first-serve for all people, regardless of their passport/visa status and their immediate need to cross the border, then you are being a bit naïve. No borders operate like that anywhere in the world. That's not racism.

 

[11101]

Russia has said for years that it wont allow Ukraine to become a Nato country. Thats the whole reason for the war. If it remained a neutral state then this war would not have happened. On one hand its a democracy and they should damn well be able to choose if they want to be Nato or not. On the other hand if they just let it be and remained a neutral state they wouldn't have been flattened by Russia. They are damned if they do and damned if they dont. They cant and will not back down now. The endgame is Russia neutralizes Ukraine. They make it impossible for it to become Nato and at the same time sets up president that any of the other countries cant as well - Latvia, Estonia, Finland and yes even Belarus (they could elect a West leaning politician in the future). They have already achieved this objective no matter what happens in Ukraine. I cannot see any of those countries joining Nato. If they do they risk the same treatment as Ukraine. Maybe Finland would get away with it.

The Wests endgame is to demonize Russia. This will make it so all these countries dont lean towards Russia like Belarus has. Russia could even be influencing countries like Czech, Poland etc and trying to elect pro Russian governments. Its the game that has been played since the second world war. Also they have legitimate reasons to fk up the Russian economy and turn the world against them.

Latvia and Estonia are already in, and Finland have an infinitely more capable military than Ukraine. Russia would not try that one again.

 

[TMDaines]

 

[Siorac]

Their fans would get abused outside their borders right now though, unfortunately. Athletes would be massively unpopular, and for one, I'm eager to see how their news agencies explain this to their population.

Imagine trying to play the Russian anthem for the football team in, for example, Warsaw. Good luck with that.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

This is bullshit though. NATO is the pretext not the reason. He wanted Ukraine and there is every reason to believe he'd have taken it regardless of whether NATO was on the table or not.

The only reason these countries wish to join NATOs defence league is because they know that they are not safe from Russian invasion.

Yeah, Russia at this point have apparently invaded Ukraine because they want to be in NATO, they're all Nazis, they want to kill Russians, they want nukes to bomb Russia, they want to ban the colours red white and blue, they want to turn Sundays into a mandatory working day and ban people from wearing hats, turn Russian cats into American goldfish, etc.

At what point do we just accept that Russia were invading no matter what.

 

[sullydnl]

I totally understand that I'm forgetting that factor but if u make a proposition to Ukraine to be:
- be blown into oblivion in hope of to be part of Nato and EU someday
- get funds to rebuild from catastrophy that already happened and to develop rapidly into prospective state with clear directions that Nato and EU is not a possibility but on the other hand Russian influence is also not a possibility

To be free democratic sovereign nations sounds very nice until u look into reality that this means that they want into EU and Nato which Russia is never gonna allow and contrary to my belief earlier in this crisis, reading and looking more into it, I think a-bomb is not out of question if things go very south for Russia.

And what guarantees does Ukraine or the rest of Europe get that that doesn't happen? Not only is there no reason to trust Russia in that regard, there is boundless reason to actively distrust them. If they try to sway powerholders in "neutral" Ukraine towards Russia through their usual campaign of bribery, intimidation, murder and political corruption then what happens? This is a regime that was happy to murder enemies within the UK without fear of any real consequence, why wouldn't they do the same to enemies within Ukraine, a country with far less clout than the UK? And in this instance "enemies within Ukraine" include members of the current regime.

A neutral Ukraine would still be a target for Russia unless Russia has actual reason to fear targeting them.

 

[Mihai]

Their Russian bank accounts. Can’t access them from here right now.

That makes more sense. In the grand scheme of things, Russian people are the only ones able to stop this madness.

 

[B20]

Let's be clear that for all his bluster about NATO aggression etc (never mind that it is a mutual defence league) the real reason Putin wants to destroy NATO is because he wishes to retain the privilege of invading and/or vassalising nations he considers part of the Russian sphere of influence.

There is no sound reason to accede to such an ambition when we are looking at democratic states desiring mutual protection against non democratic aggressors. All this is in a very real sense about the future of the democratic world.

 

[VorZakone]

Yeah, Russia at this point have apparently invaded Ukraine because they want to be in NATO, they're all Nazis, they want to kill Russians, they want nukes to bomb Russia, they want to ban the colours red white and blue, they want to turn Sundays into a mandatory working day and ban people from wearing hats, turn Russian cats into American goldfish, etc.

At what point do we just accept that Russia were invading no matter what.

Personally, I think the real question is this: if the West knew that NATO membership talks would make Russia invade Ukraine, should we have advocated for Ukraine neutrality for Ukraine's own good will? We can talk about sovereignty all we want but the fact is Ukraine is now in a war with Russia and people are dying.

In other words, should we have disappointed Ukraine by saying "we're sorry but we won't be discussing NATO membership, not now and not in the future, period.".

 

[Jerch]

I don't think this has to do much with Ukraine wanting to join NATO, and everything with Putin trying to recreate the Russian empire.

He has already put many other requests, including removing NATO members that entered after 1997 (Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria, Slovenia, Croatia, N. Macedonia, Montenegro, Albania), in addition to removing the sanctions and the US removing the nuclear weapons from Europe.

Give these to him, and he'll start asking for East Germany soon.

No disrespect but I think that Russian empire narrative is made up one from the west and I don't think many people actually believed this.
About other requests I think they are more request for negotiations than actually wishlist.

 

[Enigma_87]

Well considering the past week it appears well justified to me.

Under the current regime, NATO shouldn't even try hard to achieve this...

 

[Buster15]

We definitely need to do more on nuclear disarmament. We can't have despots wanting to blow up the world every 50 years.

In principle, yes of course.
But as with everything, putting it into practice has proven to be next to impossible.
Think about N Korea. Are they going to agree.
Russia will never ever agree. It is their primary leverage, as we have just seen.

It has been tried and tried over the years. And Russia for example still had them by the thousands.
CND was a massive movement a few decades ago, but got nowhere.

 

[B20]

Latvia and Estonia are already in, and Finland have an infinitely more capable military than Ukraine. Russia would not try that one again.

Finland and Sweden are looking increasingly likely to join NATO in the near future as it stands right now.

 

[Mihai]

I'm conflicted on the Russian athlete thing. It's easy to say it's not their fault and politics should 'stay out of the sport' but on the other hand: Russia has to understand the gravity of their actions and this includes isolation from international sporting. I lean towards the latter.

Agree with this.

 

[UncleBob]

Finland and Norway are looking increasingly likely to join NATO in the near future as it stands right now.

Sweden

Norway is already a part of NATO

 

[B20]

Personally, I think the real question is this: if the West knew that NATO membership talks would make Russia invade Ukraine, should we have advocated for Ukraine neutrality for Ukraine's own good will? We can talk about sovereignty all we want but the fact is Ukraine is now in a war with Russia and people are dying.

In other words, should we have disappointed Ukraine by saying "we're sorry but we won't be discussing NATO membership, not now and not in the future, period.".

He'd have taken Ukraine regardless. Why does he not want Ukraine to join NATO? Because he'd like to conquer it.

So what do you think he'd do if he got assurances they wouldn't join NATO?

 

[RedTiger]

Isn't Iraq quite flat, generally speaking?

Yeah but they never watered the pitch.

 

[Carolina Red]

Cities with tanks in their streets are also very vulnerable.

Hassling the Russians with urban guerrilla involves a freaking harsh civilian sacrifice.

Obviously

 

[nimic]

Russia has said for years that it wont allow Ukraine to become a Nato country. Thats the whole reason for the war. If it remained a neutral state then this war would not have happened. On one hand its a democracy and they should damn well be able to choose if they want to be Nato or not. On the other hand if they just let it be and remained a neutral state they wouldn't have been flattened by Russia. They are damned if they do and damned if they dont. They cant and will not back down now. The endgame is Russia neutralizes Ukraine. They make it impossible for it to become Nato and at the same time sets up president that any of the other countries cant as well - Latvia, Estonia, Finland and yes even Belarus (they could elect a West leaning politician in the future). They have already achieved this objective no matter what happens in Ukraine. I cannot see any of those countries joining Nato. If they do they risk the same treatment as Ukraine. Maybe Finland would get away with it.

The Wests endgame is to demonize Russia. This will make it so all these countries dont lean towards Russia like Belarus has. Russia could even be influencing countries like Czech, Poland etc and trying to elect pro Russian governments. Its the game that has been played since the second world war. Also they have legitimate reasons to fk up the Russian economy and turn the world against them.

Latvia and Estonia are already part of NATO, and Finland are probably joining. I don't know how you expect your opinion on the "whole reason for the war" seriously when you don't even know that the Baltic countries are in NATO. It's pretty fundamental to the conflict.

Also, how could Belarus act a West leaning politician when they aren't a democracy? If they were a democracy they wouldn't be helping Russia invade Ukraine.

 

[B20]

Sweden

Norway is already a part of NATO

Yep. Don't know how that got typed. Maybe I need a break from this thread