I said "in contrast nobody cared" at the very first time, its as clear as you can get if you didn't take wording out of context.That's not what you said. I cannot read your thoughts. You said "nobody cared". That's wrong. Be clearer next time!
Iraq wasn't invaded to be annexed or subjugated. It was (partly) invaded to overthrow a tyrannical government that had initiated war against two of its neighbors and attacked its own citizens with chemical weapons. Many Shia and Kurds (and probably some Sunni as well) are happy that the mass murderer Saddam is gone. The war was still wrong, though, because of the lies, the questionable motives, the crimes committed by US soldiers, the innocent civilians that died, the instability it created that would later contribute to ISIS. But it's still nothing like Ukraine, a rather free and democratic nation, that is invaded to be subjugated by an evil imperialist dictator.
Of course they will: "liberation of Ukraine". "Human sheilds". These lies are told to Americans all the time and they gobble it up. So will the Russians.
Well I'd be surprise if anyone could fix what's going on in Ukraine here.
You were putting your fingers in your ears the other day when I asked you a few things?
The poster is grading wars from better to worse. If that’s cool with you then okay
Both the West and Putin have painted themselves into their own corners with only one side willing and able to raise the stakes. Right now, a NATO miscalculation would suit Putin perfectly.
Yeah, that’s right. And in Russia the term Nazi (or fascist) isn’t even directly connected to the historical event anymore — the idea of the WW2 (or, rather, The Great Patriotic War — starting not from the invasion of Poland but from the invasion of USSR) has been mythologized and transformed into this abstract nation-defining idea. By labeling someone a Nazi you deny him humanity, transforming him into pure and unquestionable evil that stands against everything that you and your ancestors struggled and fought for.I'm not sure about this, maybe @harms van enlighten us more, but I am under the impression that Russia does not care so much about the Jews in regard to the Nazi time? Not out of spite but simply due to the atrocities that happened in the war on behalf of both sides. While the German west front was a battle against their own or equal races (according to the Nazis obviously) and therefore a bit less brutal, in the east the fight was against the slavic "subhumans" who weren't treated much better than the jews.
It wouldn't actually, unless you think he's suicidal.
The only way back is not paint Putin into a corner where he feels he has no option but to escalate it.
The private negotiations must continue.
This is new info to me. So the term Nazi has a broader use in Russia?Yeah, that’s right. And in Russia the term Nazi (or fascist) isn’t even directly connected to the historical event anymore — the idea of the WW2 (or, rather, The Great Patriotic War — starting not from the invasion of Poland but from the invasion of USSR) has been mythologized and transformed into this abstract nation-defining idea. By labeling someone a Nazi you deny him humanity, transforming him into pure and unquestionable evil that stands against everything that you and your ancestors struggled and fought for.
Which is why it’s such a widespread label in Russian propaganda even though it’s often pinned on someone who has no ideological correlation with the movement. So even the Jew/Nazi thing (like Zelenskiy) that sounds like oxymoron to any Westerner, doesn’t get questioned here. You can’t argue with a fascist and you can’t second guess yourself, it’s do or die.
The only way back is not paint Putin into a corner where he feels he has no option but to escalate it.
The private negotiations must continue.
Both the West and Putin have painted themselves into their own corners with only one side willing and able to raise the stakes. Right now, a NATO miscalculation would suit Putin perfectly.
Yes - and that means one way or another Biden is going to have to back down from himself, let alone Putin.
Nothing weird about it. Putin knows how gullible Macron is and is treating him like his little lapdog.
Macron is desperate to get some credibility in his desire to be seen as the so called leader of the EU. Comical really.
You were putting your fingers in your ears the other day when I asked you a few things?
The poster is grading wars from better to worse. If that’s cool with you then okay
The option to deescalate also exists as a result of sanctions. He will have to do so if he wants to survive.
again, for the situation to reach that point, do you realize how many lives will be lost in the process?So you don't trust anyone in Moscow to do the right thing before it even gets there? Either a disheartened high official will kill the bald cnut or the masses will get rid of the entire regime when boiling point will be met at home.
edit: The Russian constitution has Article 92 as means to remove a president incapable of serving presidential duties if that's the only way to remove the problem peacefully. Should the Duma say that's enough, then there is nothing Putin can do.
I agree. But he needs to 'save face'.
That is where it gets tricky.
Yes - and that means one way or another Biden is going to have to back down from himself, let alone Putin.
The reason Putin gave for invading Ukraine was about as fictional as the reason Bush told everyone his reason to invade Iraq was.There was no reason whatsoever for Iraq.
With Ukraine there was history. I just posted above. Not justifying what Putin did.
If you mean both were wrong. Yes.
As I've said, it's a very weird case of connotational development that mirrors a much bigger picture of cultural transformation executed by Putin's government over the past 2 decades. I'll link this article, it was decent if I'm not mistaken, on how the myth of the great patriotic war was shaped into a myth of new Russia's creation (like the October revolution was for USSR, the signing of declaration of Independence is for USA etc.). So this term, originally used in a reference to specific ideology (Italian -> Spanish -> German etc. in terms of fascism, German in terms of Nazi/nazism), now simply means enemy... but not just an enemy, the worst possible enemy that you have to fight with all your strength, leaving all hesitation behind. When we were walking through Moscow changing "No to war" a few people (it was always middle-aged women for whatever reason) cursed at us and shouted "fascists" which would seem like an odd choice of words for any non-Russian, I would think — describing people that literally ask for the violence to stop.This is new info to me. So the term Nazi has a broader use in Russia?
But they haven't though, have they? Instead Cuba is sanctioned to the eyeballs to the consternation of the rest of the world.US still have to suck it up.
The reason Putin gave for invading Ukraine was about as fictional as the reason Bush told everyone his reason to invade Iraq was.
Putin says hes there to kill Nazis and decommunise Ukraine. This is not me speculating his actual reason this is what he is saying. When GW wentto invade Iraq i was a young teenager and remember being scared that a brutal Dictator like Saddam had WMDs. I remember seeing Iraqis thrilled that Saddams regime was toppled and to me looked like they were happy the Americans finally came in. But the reason they came in was made up. No WMDs, just like Putin isnt there to defeat fecking nazis. I know now that the americans should never had went into iraq they should have left it alone and let the people living under saddam living under his brutality in peace. The lied and committed crimes and invaded a country and it was worng. We should have done more to stop them as humanity but we didnt, they have the biggest most advanced military in the world, they have the biggest economy in the world and they were all united under 9/11 with Bush seeing 80% aprproval rating. Nobody was going to sanction them because nobody could. Everything is about power and nobody had the power to stop them save for some anti war demonstrations.
As for Ukraine, like most invasions , All this ever is about, is natural resources and strategic military locations. The nato expansion to me is a boogie man Putin likes to brandish around as if he's actually concerned about an invasion into russia by Nato. He knows Nato would never ever attack him or russia, not in a million years. Its why he knew he could go into Georgia and Ukraine untouched because before feburary 22 Nato was a feckless orginasation that we could argue probably wouldnt go and defend the baltic states if they were under attack. This whole nato expansion being threatning to putin is just one big pile of non sense. End of the day he just wants to be seen as the next Peter the Great and go coquor land in the name of Russia so he can make them seem relevant again.
Thanks for that insight. When I think about it, it actually is not much different to some political discussions in Germany. There is a sad tendency to call everyone "Nazi" who disagrees to something while slightly leaning to the right. But while in Russia that seems to be widespread, here you can use it as a safe indicator who you shouldn't discuss with as it is useless - at some point you will get called a Nazi and the other one feels to be the moral winner, but this is still a minority of stupid leftist people (a lot of them - so far - liked Putin, so even in that regard it fits well).Yeah, that’s right. And in Russia the term Nazi (or fascist) isn’t even directly connected to the historical event anymore — the idea of the WW2 (or, rather, The Great Patriotic War — starting not from the invasion of Poland but from the invasion of USSR) has been mythologized and transformed into this abstract nation-defining idea. By labeling someone a Nazi you deny him humanity, transforming him into pure and unquestionable evil that stands against everything that you and your ancestors struggled and fought for.
Which is why it’s such a widespread label in Russian propaganda even though it’s often pinned on someone who has no ideological correlation with the movement. So even the Jew/Nazi thing (like Zelenskiy) that sounds like oxymoron to any Westerner, doesn’t get questioned here. You can’t argue with a fascist and you can’t second guess yourself, it’s do or die.
Because it makes you uncomfortable none of us should talk about causes of war? okay.
In Putin's speech he referred to the 1918 treaty and the regions that were part of the old Russian empire.
That was his so called 'reason'.
Its clear this is his big 'push back' to the West.
What the US and the West now have to think about is how get back to 'normalization' of some sort.
thanks for clearing that up, we had a discussion in the office today about this. ( Zelenskiy and Nazi )Yeah, that’s right. And in Russia the term Nazi (or fascist) isn’t even directly connected to the historical event anymore — the idea of the WW2 (or, rather, The Great Patriotic War — starting not from the invasion of Poland but from the invasion of USSR) has been mythologized and transformed into this abstract nation-defining idea. By labeling someone a Nazi you deny him humanity, transforming him into pure and unquestionable evil that stands against everything that you and your ancestors struggled and fought for.
Which is why it’s such a widespread label in Russian propaganda even though it’s often pinned on someone who has no ideological correlation with the movement. So even the Jew/Nazi thing (like Zelenskiy) that sounds like oxymoron to any Westerner, doesn’t get questioned here. You can’t argue with a fascist and you can’t second guess yourself, it’s do or die.
Yes. Putin isn't going home empty handed.
In Putin's speech he referred to the 1918 treaty and the regions that were part of the old Russian empire.
That was his so called 'reason'.
Its clear this is his big 'push back' to the West.
What the US and the West now have to think about is how get back to 'normalization' of some sort.
In Putin's speech he referred to the 1918 treaty and the regions that were part of the old Russian empire.
That was his so called 'reason'.
Its clear this is his big 'push back' to the West.
What the US and the West now have to think about is how get back to 'normalization' of some sort.
Even so, Cuba held their ground long enough until the Obama administration began to open up and basically accept that it is impossible for the US to draw Cuba back into the American sphere of influence. They are still holding on even though there were recent protests from Cubans asking their government to do their job in times of COVID, totally unrelated to geopolitical games.But they haven't though, have they? Instead Cuba is sanctioned to the eyeballs to the consternation of the rest of the world.
0 chance he pulls back accepting defeat. If a face saving option which he can sell as a 'win' can be found, yes.without a no fly zone at the least (which would be madness in the context of nato vs russia), other than russia taking over ukraine eventually regardless of the human cost, there is no other way of this ending. surely the issue is the timescale. economic pressure on russia will obviously build, but can anyone really see it harming putin to the extent he pulls back.
There simply can’t be a normalisation after this, not with Putin still in charge of Russia.
Businesses can’t simply restart trading with them, nations can’t simply restart trading and negotiating with them.
This event has permanently changed the landscape of the planet and as far as I see it, there’s only two ways to end it.
ha yes because dictators stay in power due to the overwhelming love of their people.If there is an agreement, things will go back to normal as much as it can do.
The Russians will decide who they want to lead their country.
There's no such thing as normalization with Putin. He is an authoritarian dictator with nukes who has to go on the attack to prevent democracy reaching Russia, resulting in the toppling of his regime and his own execution. He must therefore always go on the attack of neighboring states to destabilize or invade them to prevent Russia going democratic. The only way to reach a normal equilibrium is for Putin to be removed through the pressure of sanctions,
We agree on a lot but I'm curious how do you think Putin gets removed? The old-fashioned way?There's no such thing as normalization with Putin. He is an authoritarian dictator with nukes who has to go on the attack to prevent democracy reaching Russia, resulting in the toppling of his regime and his own execution. He must therefore always go on the attack of neighboring states to destabilize or invade them to prevent Russia going democratic. The only way to reach a normal equilibrium is for Putin to be removed through the pressure of sanctions,
