That settles a few myths going around, like Fred being a bad passer and Donny being clearly great.Fred's passing over the last 12 months:
VDB's passing over the last 12 months:
Fred tries far more more passes, far more longer passes, far more progressive passes...and yet still has a higher pass completion rate.
VDB is good at little one-two's (something Fred is actually quite good at as well), but otherwise he really hasn't shown anything even remotely impressive with his passing.
Van De Beek | Everton Loan Watch
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Are you joking? The most delusional I’ve read on this topic so far. Like Macron said to Putin: you are lying to yourself!
It’s Fred’s touch that lets him down. The misplaced passes are generally a result of that. Probably a technique issue given how wild his shooting can be.
Bit different this!
Fred's passing over the last 12 months:
VDB's passing over the last 12 months:
Fred tries far more more passes, far more longer passes, far more progressive passes...and yet still has a higher pass completion rate.
VDB is good at little one-two's (something Fred is actually quite good at as well), but otherwise he really hasn't shown anything even remotely impressive with his passing.
not disagreeing with the stats, but you know that VdB didn't play much in last 12 months, only after his move to Everton he got consistent game time.
for me, both Fred & VdB are below par if we want to compete for trophies, but you got to be fair in your assessment of VdB, when he didn't get to play much with us, I bet VdB does not even have 20% of the minutes Fred has in the last 12 months.
My boss is an Everton fan (season ticket holder) and he says Donny has played well for them so far, although this was before last night.
Its the FA cup. Spurs almost lost to Morecambe, before actually losing to Middlesborough. Chelsea skimmed Plymouth was it? Then again vs Luton.
Anyone extrapolating an FA cup tie as representative of Donny in an Everton shirt needs to give their head a wobble.
Anyone extrapolating an FA cup tie as representative of Donny in an Everton shirt needs to give their head a wobble.
Fred's passing over the last 12 months:
VDB's passing over the last 12 months:
Fred tries far more more passes, far more longer passes, far more progressive passes...and yet still has a higher pass completion rate.
VDB is good at little one-two's (something Fred is actually quite good at as well), but otherwise he really hasn't shown anything even remotely impressive with his passing.
Well, there you go, quite a few have mentioned Donny's extremely limited passing range and that contextualizes it beautifully.
Do you care to elaborate? Maybe make some points where I'm wrong. It's hard to discuss if you just say "your are wrong."
Fred's passing over the last 12 months:
VDB's passing over the last 12 months:
Fred tries far more more passes, far more longer passes, far more progressive passes...and yet still has a higher pass completion rate.
VDB is good at little one-two's (something Fred is actually quite good at as well), but otherwise he really hasn't shown anything even remotely impressive with his passing.
Do you have the same stats for VDB with Everton? That would be interesting.
It feels like people rare VDB hugely here because he didn't play much and hence they had less chances to be frustrated by him.
Based on their time here I'm surprised anyone thinks he's better than Fred. Fred is better in all the aspects that help you win a midfield battle. And Donny is too generic and basic on the ball to make up for it despite Fred's erratic nature. Mctominay I get - he's poor on the ball but given our backline needs protection he's the mediocity we have to do with.
Based on their time here I'm surprised anyone thinks he's better than Fred. Fred is better in all the aspects that help you win a midfield battle. And Donny is too generic and basic on the ball to make up for it despite Fred's erratic nature. Mctominay I get - he's poor on the ball but given our backline needs protection he's the mediocity we have to do with.
VDB has a bit of Herrera about him in that he someday resembles the kind of player we lack so people desperately want him to get better than he is. Except Herrera was actually good and VDB so far is anything but.
He does have time on his side of course. Maybe he'll develop big time in the next few years but I think it's also important to see the kind of player he is and the level he currently brings.
He does have time on his side of course. Maybe he'll develop big time in the next few years but I think it's also important to see the kind of player he is and the level he currently brings.
Although this illustration looks great for Fred vs Donny, it would be interesting to see some crucial stats such as % possesion lost, and errors leading to opposition attacks/chances. The biggest issue with Fred isn't really his ability to pass. It's the poor touch and inability to take passes on the turn under pressure. It's like a moment of anxiety every time the ball is passed to him and just praying it doesn't bounce off him back to the opposition.Fred's passing over the last 12 months:
VDB's passing over the last 12 months:
Fred tries far more more passes, far more longer passes, far more progressive passes...and yet still has a higher pass completion rate.
VDB is good at little one-two's (something Fred is actually quite good at as well), but otherwise he really hasn't shown anything even remotely impressive with his passing.
VdB is a link player that EtH used as the most advanced central attacker. His movement and ability to link play in the final third caused many problems for two of the biggest clubs in Europe. From the evidence at hand, VdB is best utilised as the most advanced central attacker. So comparing him to Fred is a moot point.
Also the obsession with stats has gone too far imo. One would think we have been winning the biggest prizes in the game with the stats presented for Bruno, Rashford, Maguire etc. And we still can't function properly as a team when it comes to playing a proactive brand of football. Why? Because we either give the ball away cheaply (Rashford/Bruno), and the culprits are then still lauded for getting a goal/assist, or we can't defend a large space in a high-line (Maguire), and then people wonder why our high press isn't effective. It's about creating a well oiled machine for the collective and poor performances in the build up phase and defensive transitions shouldn't be ignored because a forward scored/assisted or a CB made numerous interceptions and blocks in a low/mid block.
Guardiola describes it best in the clip below about the obsession some have with stats, which doesn't correlate to the reality of creating a dynamic on the pitch.
Also the obsession with stats has gone too far imo. One would think we have been winning the biggest prizes in the game with the stats presented for Bruno, Rashford, Maguire etc. And we still can't function properly as a team when it comes to playing a proactive brand of football. Why? Because we either give the ball away cheaply (Rashford/Bruno), and the culprits are then still lauded for getting a goal/assist, or we can't defend a large space in a high-line (Maguire), and then people wonder why our high press isn't effective. It's about creating a well oiled machine for the collective and poor performances in the build up phase and defensive transitions shouldn't be ignored because a forward scored/assisted or a CB made numerous interceptions and blocks in a low/mid block.
Guardiola describes it best in the clip below about the obsession some have with stats, which doesn't correlate to the reality of creating a dynamic on the pitch.
His Everton stats are included in that image. There's no actual graph limited to his time at Everton, but it's easy enough to work out the actual numbers since it's only a few games, although won't have the percentile directly comparing him to other midfielders.
Passes Completed: 42.28
Passes Attempted: 50.28
Pass Completion %: 84.09%
Total Passing Distance: 656.63 yards
Progressive Passing Distance: 228.7 yards
Passes Completed (Short): 22.1
Passes Attempted (Short): 24.3
Pass Completion % (Short): 90.9%
Passes Completed (Medium): 15.7
Passes Attempted (Medium): 17.3
Pass Completion % (Medium): 90.7%
Passes Completed (Long): 2.6
Passes Attempted (Long): 5.4
Pass Completion % (Long): 48.1%
Assists: 0
Expected Assists: 0
Key Passes: 0.32
Passes into Final Third: 3.84
Passes into Penalty Area: 0.64
Crosses into Penalty Area: 0
Progressive Passes: 3.84
I'll repost his stats over the last 12 months for an easy comparison:
So not really much different than his overall stats over the last 12 months. The most noticeable thing is that his progressive passing has improved a bit. That's most likely because he's been playing more of a deeper role for Everton than he often did for us, and progressive passing is easier to do if your starting position is deeper. So I do think it should be noted that the progressive passes in the graph I had in the other post is definitely weighted a little against VDB since he's played quite a lot of his games in a more attacking position. If I limit it to just the games he's played in a deeper role his progressive passing distance is only a little less than Fred, although it has to be noted that almost all of those games have been against poor teams. Other than an 11 minute cameo against Man City (where he didn't make a single progressive pass), the strongest opposition he's faced while playing in that position is Southampton a couple of times, and the rest have all been relegation candidates.
This is what I never got with some fans and VDB - why they played him deep as possible trying to replace Fred or Mctominay.
VDB at his best was an attacker, able to make runs that are unpicked by the opposition defenders.
Fred's an 8.. McTominay's an 8.. Van de Beek's an 8.. Okay he's more of an attacking 8 but he can easily play as an 8 between McTominay as a makeshift 6 and Bruno, especially given the amount of times Pogba's played there.
VDB's best games for us have generally been in the deeper role at the end of last season or the early part of this season. He's been poor and extremely timid almost every time he's played in a more attacking role.
Ok. Here we go. We obviously observe DVB with different eyes
And…..
.
VdB showed in Europe's premier competition that he was a good player against elite opposition. At Ajax he had a coach who understood and also had the ability to coach a zonal/positional game which meant players like VdB could thrive. Fred for example wouldn't get into the same Ajax team and neither would he get into mid table clubs in England imo.
Clearly if ETH came, Donny would have a future here.
McTominay's passing stats:
Certainly not as good as Fred's, but probably a little better than VDB's.
https://fbref.com/en/ is where I get the stats from. There's a lot of different stats on there as well rather than just the passing which I focused on in these images.
I’m not a great fan of Fred neither, but find it weird when you say a player (with a lot of playing time) on the Brazilian National team isn’t good enough for Ajax and a mid table team in PL
(Ajax would’ve been a bottom table PL team at best)
You don't know what you're saying hereI’m not a great fan of Fred neither, but find it weird when you say a player (with a lot of playing time) on the Brazilian National team isn’t good enough for Ajax and a mid table team in PL
(Ajax would’ve been a bottom table PL team at best)
Being a regular in the Brazil NT doesn't say anything about Fred's quality on the ball. Tite is using Fred for his off the ball game. We've had players like Kleberson who were huge flop's at United but excelled for Brazil.I’m not a great fan of Fred neither, but find it weird when you say a player (with a lot of playing time) on the Brazilian National team isn’t good enough for Ajax and a mid table team in PL
(Ajax would’ve been a bottom table PL team at best)
It's not weird at all, because Ajax play to control the game, not only without the ball but also with the ball. And the players ten Hag has used in midfield to control the game in a high compact block are superior to Fred technically on the ball, without compromising their game in defensive transitions.
I’m not a great fan of Fred neither, but find it weird when you say a player (with a lot of playing time) on the Brazilian National team isn’t good enough for Ajax and a mid table team in PL
(Ajax would’ve been a bottom table PL team at best)
You cant be serious. With our current team and coach we would compete for top 6.
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Thank you. I watched the MC match and the bold is just not true. I'm not sure how they determine a progressive pass, though.
Ok. Here we go. We obviously observe DVB with different eyes
And…..
Okay, I can accept what you said and just disagree. I don't think DVB will ever be a great midfielder, I just think he has more to offer than McFred. I'm really tired of accepting the mediocrity of our midfielders. I predict by the end of the season DVB will have shown with Everton he is better than McFred. We'll see.
This is my prediction as well. Right now Fred is a better player, although not by much. McTominay vs van de Beek I'm not sure.
However, whatever happens I suppose there will always be people claiming he's not top player material, therefore we should get rid. Which is bizarre considering the midfield situation we have.
That’s correct, but as Fernandes occupies the position that Van De Beek is most useful in, he will never get priority in that spot. As a result, if he ever wants to make it in this side, he needs to be compared to and be competing with Fred. A comparison which he loses.
There’s room for Bruno and Donny, maybe not in the same side but maybe in the squad. But we never rotated. Bruno was overplayed and often marked out of games because the opposition were so familiar with him. Having two quality players per position is an important strength. Donny hardly set the world alight but there were plenty of games where he should’ve started as the AM and we should’ve rotated/rested Bruno. There are more than enough games a season to have both.
Van de Beek would play ahead of Fred under any coach who looked to implement a possession based style with a view to playing vertical passes in a compact high block imo. I also think Bruno's' days are numbered in the first 11, if he doesn't improve on how wasteful he has been with the ball, which contributes to the dysfunctionality in the team.
But ultimately it's about creating conditions for a proactive attacking brand of football. And VdB was never signed from Ajax for his performances in a deeper midfield two. So I don't even factor him into my thinking as a midfielder going forward. But one thing is very clear imo, the like of Fred are no where near good enough on the ball to help propel us towards the best teams/midfields in the game.
For me we need two midfielders, first being a DM who is comfortable at defending a large space in a compact high block (would help us press high more effectively) and also having good ball retention skills. And secondly a creative #8 who has the craft and guile to manipulate space and open up passing angles without sacrificing tenacity/intensity off the ball.
You'd be fighting with Chelsea for 3rd I think. Probably would have bought a bigger CB in the summer like St. Juste or wheover for some away games unless that Schuurs guy is up to it, or not sold Botman. But the rest of the squad looks fine for 3rd/4th to me. Haller was a bust in the Prem because West Ham defend so deep he couldn't catch up to Bowen and others to get into the box after his decent hold up play at half, but that's not a problem since you'd have more of the ball.
But yeah, a solid CB away from fighting with Chelsea, and maybe Berghuis would not be consistently playing so well so maybe you'd want a more dynamic CM than him or Klassen. But those are doable things.
I'm sure Fred has had higher passing completion than 84 at some point too. I think that's tailed off in the past year and should be better, but he's still better than VDB in pretty much every passing department, and many other areas of the game too. The stats must make fairly depressing reading for the VDB excuse makers or at least the people that talk utter nonsense about Fred, our best midfielder.
The thing is, I think people have made up their minds. Donny is from Ajax, he's already this Dutch technical archetype, people just see whatever they want. It's just assumed he's better at passing even though we've nothing to back it up and never have had anything to back it up except a CL game years ago. Cold hard facts which find their way into stats don't seem to matter compared to these very broad brush strokes of Fred and VDB as the workhorse and technical master.
Fact is Fred is the best we've got. The most athletic, the most balls to get on the ball, the hardest worker, the most character because he fought back from an awful start. It's him we need to be supporting in the market, not banking on this lame horse. If he isn't good enough eventually so be it but for now that's the way to build up.
The thing is, I think people have made up their minds. Donny is from Ajax, he's already this Dutch technical archetype, people just see whatever they want. It's just assumed he's better at passing even though we've nothing to back it up and never have had anything to back it up except a CL game years ago. Cold hard facts which find their way into stats don't seem to matter compared to these very broad brush strokes of Fred and VDB as the workhorse and technical master.
Fact is Fred is the best we've got. The most athletic, the most balls to get on the ball, the hardest worker, the most character because he fought back from an awful start. It's him we need to be supporting in the market, not banking on this lame horse. If he isn't good enough eventually so be it but for now that's the way to build up.
You are right, let's ditch our best player for Davy Klassen 2.0. Man City hear us roar!
He's gonna get ditched for either his wastefulness by the next head coach or Hannibal will put him to pasture.
Not sure what you are smoking but that is never going to happen. Bruno reached 50 goal involvements in the PL a few months ago and the only 3 players to get there in fewer games were Andy Cole, Alan Shearer and Eric Cantona. Mo Salah took the same number of games and you will notice that all of those players are forwards, not midfielders. If KDB produced anything close to the level of Bruno he would have won the Ballon d'Or already but because Bruno is a United player he is constantly torn down by the media and bizarrely by his own supporters. I am all for a debate about the merits of VDB or Hannibal but the mad disrespect that Bruno is getting lately is ridiculous.
Bruno to be replaced with either Beek or a kid ? o......................k.
You're weighing everything up using stats. But the reality is that Bruno contributes to the dysfunction in the team. And him being situated closer to the opposition goal will always mean he will have chances to score and assist. But he's consistently shown for the last 4/5 years that he's wasteful on the ball. And for a 27 year old player that isn't good enough.
I hope the club sign Nkunku in the summer and he challenges Bruno for a place in the team. I'd also take young Florian Wirtz over Bruno.