Arteta is responsible for that bad run so it would be ridiculous to ignore it when assessing his time in charge.
Mikel Arteta | Lego Pep watch
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Arteta is responsible for that bad run so it would be ridiculous to ignore it when assessing his time in charge.
“If hypothetically these two teams had better seasons and had more points than Arsenal then who’d be higher in the table? Checkmate”
I don’t disagree with you that they’ve benefitted from a couple of their rivals struggling this season, but this stuff doesn’t happen in a vacuum. It shows how hard it is to navigate this league, and if Arsenal get top 4 it’ll be hard to argue it’s not deserved, they’ve been playing consistently well, have made some big decisions that have paid off and are the fourth best side in the league.
That is literally the only point I’m making here.
As a United fan this point is particularly relatable because our rivals having a crisis was a huge factor in us managing to finish second under Ole. So it’s funny to see Arsenal fans in denial about something similar happening to them this season.
If we had a 8 point gap when both those sides sacked their managers, maybe you'd have a point. But, United were 3 points behind us, and Spurs were 1 point behind us when they sacked their managers respectively. (or other way round).
As someone mentioned, Arteta also had a bad start, and you said it was down to Arteta but it wasn't entirely. We had 5/6 first XI players for the first 3 games of the season (injuries, transfers, covid), and the 3 teams we faced had full strength teams. There's only so much Arteta can do in that situation, especially when you are facing Brentford away, Chelsea and City.
No it isn't relatable at all tbh.
United finished 2nd last year with 74 points, the lowest for the past 5 years. So yes, in that case there was a relationship between other teams preforming poorly and Uniteds 2nd place finish.
This season we are on track for 73 points, which is an above average number for 4th place in recent times. The two situations are completely different, so you really have no comparison to make here. Yes, in the direct 4 games vs United/Spurs there was an influence, but we still haven't played half of those games yet anyway.
So unless you want to go a step further and say the entire league this year has underperformed, hence why Arsenal are able to get around 70 points potentially, then not seeing the point you're making.
I'm not disagreeing that if United and Spurs were at full force, maybe they also could have got 70+ points (maybe they still can), but with their squads you'd have expected that before the season anyway. With ours, everyone expected us to fall outside the top 6 more or less. So for Arteta to potentially, stress potentially, finish the season with over 70 points and top 4, the credit goes to him alone. It has nothing to do with others. If we finished top 4 with the lowest points total in the past 5 years, say 62 points, then you'd have a point, similar to the one you made about United last year.
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I think the Ole situation is a little different in that I never saw the kind of linear progression that I do with this Arsenal side. Ole’s United would go on great runs and then have dips, but I never thought of the team as fundamentally evolving. Sure it was super exciting when Ronaldo, Sancho and Varane came in, but it never felt like there was a clear idea of where the side was going or what it needed to get there. When United finished second, I never thought they were the second best team in the league. Whereas I think this Arsenal side probably is the fourth best side.
I know that’s different to what you’re arguing, if Spurs and United had good seasons maybe Arsenal wouldn’t be/get 4th. But I think it’s possible to evaluate this Arsenal side as it’s own entity and I feel confident in saying that 4th is a fair ranking regardless of how their competitors have done. Next season could be very different depending on United.
Perhaps I misunderstood your point. When you called United and Spurs sacking their managers a “huge influence” on where Arsenal finish, I thought you deemed it as a major factor. Which I disagree with for reasons I and others have stated.
But if your point is that it had an affect… then yes - I agree. But isn’t that inherent to a league format?
You’re basically stating that the reason Arsenal are currently in the top 4 is because there are only 3 teams who have played well enough to be above them in the table. Arsenal (and Swansea/Chelsea) fans attribute that primarily to how Arsenal are playing… but that somehow makes us delusional.
By the end of the season, league table generally doesn’t lie. It didn’t lie with Ole. United finished miles off of City. This whole debate seems to hinge on your argument that points don’t matter - only final position does. But points are awarded for winning games. Arsenal have won a lot of them. If - and it’s a big if - we continue to win at the same rate, we’ll amass a number of points that would place us in the top 4. If we do that, it will have very little to do with United or Spurs. And if we lose too many games to finish 4th or higher - it will also have very little to do with them. That’s the nature of a league system.
Which is great because no other teams have had transfers, injuries or COVID to deal with.
As for the cut-off point with the situation of each club at that point in time, it's not that simple (though I'm starting to notice a trend in your posts of oversimplifying things when it suits you), things don't change overnight when a manager is sacked and it's indicative of an overall negative dynamic in a club, and deeper issues that aren't just resolved magically.
It doesn't matter in redcafe. the logic is "a club" other than Chelsea, Liverpool and City finish higher than United and get the 4th spot is only because your competitors underperformed for that season. That club can be Spurs, Leicester, Arsenal. No exception. In the end as long as Arteta can still convince the board he is the right one to lead the "project" regardless the final league position, and the club is heading the right direction, 4th place or not doesn't matter. If he can't then he will be out, just like any other head coach/manager out there.
Yes they did, but that was at a time where the whole league had injuries/covid etc etc. Our first 3 games of the season, we had quite a few out with covid when no other side really did. We asked for postponement, it was denied. It was only till later in the season when the league decided to take measures as multiple sides had issues.
Things don't change overnight no, but I wasn't the one who brought up teams having bad starts to the season leading to them sacking managers.
The fact is, if you told anyone on this forum, Arsenal would finish with 70+ points this season (especially after the first 3 games of the season), they'd have ripped you to bits. (granted this hasn't happened yet). And if Arteta achieves this, he deserves credit. It has nothing to do with other sides, unless you are of the opinion the whole league has been poor this season apart from Arsenal who have got lucky or something.
What is this logic?
Why would it be a surprise.. he will know exactly what to expect he's not an idiot.
We have a small squad now because we are NOT in Europe. If we were, we'd have a bigger squad, simple as.
Also, the irony is lost on people that if we were in Europe next year we wouldn't have this issue because the CL teams that play on Wednesday won't have to play the 12:30 KO Slot
Artetas issue is that this is the third time it's happened this season to us, when it isn't really meant to happen. If he doesn't complain, then it will just keep happening, hence why he's made a point about it. If it's a one off, you can understand as a covid clash occurrence. If he just keeps quiet then the prem i'm sure will just arrange our NLD match to be the exact same thing.
The fact that it's banned for CL matches on Wednesday to play the PL 12:30 KO Time, why is it not banned for all competitions? Arteta's in his right to question it.
The solution was simple. if you didn't cry about lack of players to get the games postpone, there wouldn't be an issue.
Its not rocket science, if you get games postponed, its a struggle fitting them in.
Another post with no logic.
We asked for 1 game to be postponed, there are no 'games'.
The other 3 games postponed (Wolves, Chelsea, Liverpool), were all because of the other side requesting/cup obligations. Seems to be a common thing that a lot of fans somehow think we cried and asked for 3-4 games to be postponed.
No logic ? Did Arsenal get a game postpone or not? It wasn't because of covid, it was because of injuries and AFCON.
Arteta is crying about 2 games a week when its the norm if you want to play in the CL or Europe.
He isn't crying about having 2 games a week, first point.
Second point, I go back, he isn't an idiot. He is fully aware of how many games you have when you're in the CL/Europe. What point are people even trying to make here? You think we'll go into next season with a 20 man squad if we get into Europe? The only reason we have that size squad now is because we have 1 competition.
Arsenal fans crying as if their mid week game was in Turkey or something then have a 12:30 game away on Saturday..
Yes and when he got rid of the players, he must have known that there will be weeks where they need to play 2 games because they missed games?
Nobody is crying, in fact the only ones crying apparently are opposition fans trying to make this into a big deal.
Again, 3rd time, he has no issues with playing 2 games a week.
His point is that this year in the PL we have had the shortest break in between games 4/5 times so far, and it seems to be a running theme. He has put up with the first 2-3 times because these things happen, especially during a covid year. But the fact that it keeps happening, he is questioning why Arsenal are being put in these slots, whereas other sides only have this issue once or max twice a season. It's that simple.
His job is to question these things, if he didn't question it then i'd be disappointed.
Lots of crying grown men in here 
I'm curious to see how he will "re-populate" the squad if we get CL considering we're about to get rinsed by any club selling a striker (2?). We'll probably have to splash another 150M to do it right so hopefully the Kroenke allow it.
Since we've found the right formula we've been pretty lucky about injuries and that will 100% change with more games. Those 1-0 and 2-1 wins will turn into draws without the right signings up top.
I'm curious to see how he will "re-populate" the squad if we get CL considering we're about to get rinsed by any club selling a striker (2?). We'll probably have to splash another 150M to do it right so hopefully the Kroenke allow it.
Since we've found the right formula we've been pretty lucky about injuries and that will 100% change with more games. Those 1-0 and 2-1 wins will turn into draws without the right signings up top.
Signing a 20 goal striker with Arsenal's budget won't be easy. I hope Lacazette will stay for a 2 year contract so there is no need to look for 2 strikers in the same window. I guess it also depends on whether arsenal has CL income next season so the club can have more budget to play with.Lots of crying grown men in here
I'm curious to see how he will "re-populate" the squad if we get CL considering we're about to get rinsed by any club selling a striker (2?). We'll probably have to splash another 150M to do it right so hopefully the Kroenke allow it.
Since we've found the right formula we've been pretty lucky about injuries and that will 100% change with more games. Those 1-0 and 2-1 wins will turn into draws without the right signings up top.
Going with a thin squad was a calculated risk, Arsenal desperately needed to clear up unmotivated-underperforming players who took the club as a retirement home. The best thing which happened to gunners this year is not the top 6 challenge, it's the squad clearance and mentality change.
6 teams getting that number of points (ie target for 70) is very rare. Spurs have finished 6th and 7th in the past 2 seasons and won't have had a 70 point season since 3 seasons ago, a season where they had 13 losses and 71 points. They're largely a 2 player team and with Kane and Son getting older there tranjectory isn't going to be upwards
Arsenal are actually on target for 73 points if we maintain our current points per game. If we manage that it's a points total Spurs are very unlikely to hit next season. Sure United could turn a corner and put up a 70 points season next year, you did hit 74 points last season. The question marks to me seem to be the age of CR7, Pogba/Martial possibly leaving, United's defensive unit as a whole and the Greenwood situation. You'll probably spend a bucketload in the summer.
Nah, you've got it all wrong. Points don't matter. Wins don't matter. Performances don't matter. Only final league position. And while you might think that a teams final league position is mostly determined by how they play throughout the season... that is a delusion.
Sort it out, mate.
Arsenal have gone from strength to strength this season. There's really no denying that. They look impressive almost every time I watch them.
Going forwards, who knows. It's mightily difficult to maintain the consistency required to finish top 4 season after season. We at United should know that better than anyone. Every season is a clean slate and every club is hoping that new signings work out as well as they hope they do, but there are never any guarantees.
Going forwards, who knows. It's mightily difficult to maintain the consistency required to finish top 4 season after season. We at United should know that better than anyone. Every season is a clean slate and every club is hoping that new signings work out as well as they hope they do, but there are never any guarantees.
Absolutely true.
The big advantage Arsenal should have is that their success has been built on a very effective tactical system and a very good mentality in the young squad. The big disadvantage and potential difficulty is that the manager really only trusts maybe 12-13 players right now. The ability of Arsenal to maintain this fairly high level while also rotating significantly is essentially completely untested but it will be massively tested next year due to not only playing in Europe but also the especially congested schedule resulting from the mid-season World Cup. Arsenal will both have to get the recruitment right this summer to expand the number of trusted players and figure out how to rotate among them in a way that keeps up the level while also keeping everybody happy, etc. If Arteta can pull that off, I think the future is very bright - depending on what happens with Chelsea, Arsenal might even be favorites for third and closing the gap a bit on the top two. But its far from a guarantee that Arsenal can pull that off.
Every team is trying to improve every summer. At this point except Liverpool and Man City are guarantee for a top 4 place every other club needs to fight for it. There is no guarantee Arsenal can improve the league position next season. Summer transfer may not work out, injury issue, there are so many factors in play. Spurs will improve further under Conte and Man Utd will have a new manager as well.
Let's face it, Pogue wouldn't have a good word to say about Arsenal if we won all 38 league games 5-0. There would be some other factor. You have to admire his consistency.
Yeah I agree. It'll be interesting to see what kind of strategy you go for this summer. With such a small number of trusted players, you really need to add at least four that are going to work out in order to cope with the schedule, and adding any number of players to a squad has potential to upset the equilibrium - who could possibly have predicted that adding Varane, Sancho & Ronaldo to a 2nd place team would end up how it has? Right now it looks a happy camp and a settled XI and that's showing on the pitch, but what happens to certain players once they find themselves with competition, or having to adapt their styles to accommodate, or start to be seriously courted by bigger clubs.
Honestly, while I think the team and Arteta deserve a lot of credit this season, it wouldn't be unfair to state that you've had very favourable conditions. No fixture congestion at all. Rivals for league position being in disarray. You'll never have it so good again. I had you guys as favourites for 4th a few months back, but I'd also predict that it will be difficult for you to consolidate that next season. I realise the temptation is to look up the table while you are in such good form, but I think it would be wise to not get over confident.
A few things have fallen our way. We seriously rolled the dice with our January transfer window. We've had very few injuries in 2022 and even those we've suffered have been in positions where we have the most cover. We had Ramsdale, Takehiro and Martnelli out in our last game. Cedric (solid full international), Leno (great shot-stopper) and Smith-Rowe (joint top-scorer) stepped in seamlessly. GK / RB / LW (and possibly LB) are the only positions where there isn't a huge drop off in quality between the 1st XI and their replacement. We may have to ride our luck a little until the end of the season.
We bought 6 players in the last window and that really strengthened the squad. With Saliba returning from his loan, we now have to focus on quality over quantity. Unfortunately for us, we need a striker and they are never cheap. And there currently seems to be a shortage so we're most likely going to be quoted insane prices.
Yeah, and why is Spurs sacking their manager a seen as a negative thing. Utd I can understand, but Spurs sacked their manager early and brought in an upgrade. We will have done very well to have finished ahead of Contes Spurs, if we achieve that.
This is a fair point. I don't think Spurs are a particularly good team and you probably would have finished above them regardless of who was in charge there. United on the other hand - obviously I'm biased but it's easy for me to see that we've thrown away so many points this season. I wouldn't say we are consistent enough to be well above Arsenal right now but we should certainly be neck and neck at this point and looking at a tense fight with you guys, rather than dead and buried.
In the case of Spurs, we’re talking about a team that finished 7th. It’s not like they’ve had a CL space on lock for a couple decades and therefore Arsenal should thank their lucky stars that Tottenham aren’t their usual dominant selves.
A second Manager of the Month gong. I can easily see him being rewarded with a massive contract extension.
I doubt it. Arsenal just posted post-tax losses of £107.3m, the biggest in their history, with up to £85m of these losses attributable to the pandemic.
He'll still get a nice new contract. I wouldn't worry about the losses, we used to win the Balance Sheet League most seasons but done little for us on the park.
Good point to be honest.
Really hope so.
Vieira Vs Arteta - bigger arsenal legend?
Asshole twitching just a little bit in Islington. I still think they'll finish 4th but it won't all be smooth sailing
Spurs will beat them
Lad, it's spurs