Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

Rajma said:
How about a special operation? I mean it really does no good for Ukrainians calling this a conflict, when they’re subject to a brutal and largest full scale war/aggression/genocide since ww2.
Would you call a rape a conflict between male/female as well? Such understatements in the public space just play into Putin’s hands even if done without any bad intent.
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Those comparisons aren't fair at all. I'm just explaining that a war is a conflict, and wars are often referred to as conflicts, particularly when they're part of a larger picture. It's not diminishing it or understating it, and it's obviously not the same as calling a rape a conflict.
 
Pintu said:
German outlet Bild run it with some corroboration as well. They detailed the vetting process they did. After géolocalisation of the video, speech analysis by independent experts and then corroborating with sources on the ground.

They concluded that “it was carried out by Ukrainian soldiers from the 92nd Mechanized Brigade of the Ukrainian Army and volunteer squads associated with the Azov Regiment”.

The tweet in the spoiler comes with a link to their article in German.
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Isn't Bild basically daily mail tabloid quality?

There's just a couple news outlets that seem to be going out of their way to push this story for contraversy when most serious outlets are dismissing it or at the least waiting for some actual evidence.
 
Looking back at previous wars I always wondered what happened in the weeks and months before. How did it build up to a war.

It feels weird to be thinking about the weeks before this invasion with the embassy evacuations, warnings to Western nationals to leave, more and more declassified intel reports coming out, videos of Russian troop movements, more and more OSINT coming out, Biden saying he believes Putin made the decision to invade etc.

It reminds me of horror movies where the horror doesn't start immediately but we see glimpses of some evil. And then it starts. But unfortunately, this war isn't a movie but reality.
 
Simbo said:
Isn't Bild basically daily mail tabloid quality?

There's just a couple news outlets that seem to be going out of their way to push this story for contraversy when most serious outlets are dismissing it or at the least waiting for some actual evidence.
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Yeah, the problem with Bild is, that you can't trust them, even if they sometimes have amazing sources. The trouble with them starts when they want to influence the public opinion.
 
Simbo said:
Isn't Bild basically daily mail tabloid quality?

There's just a couple news outlets that seem to be going out of their way to push this story for contraversy when most serious outlets are dismissing it or at the least waiting for some actual evidence.
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Not sure I've seen any convincing dismissal. This is an article where BBC goes through the arguments being made by both sides. BBC accredits Bild's geolocalisation of the video. But at the end they neither confirm nor dismiss the story.

https://www.bbc.com/news/60907259

I think we are past the part where we supposed the Ukrainian army consisted entirely of angels that aren't capable of torturing the invaders. And we don't need them to be saints to completely support their absolute right to defend their country.
 
Pintu said:
Not sure I've seen any convincing dismissal. This is an article where BBC goes through the arguments being made by both sides. BBC accredits Bild's geolocalisation of the video. But at the end they neither confirm nor dismiss the story.

https://www.bbc.com/news/60907259

I think we are past the part where we supposed the Ukrainian army consisted entirely of angels that aren't capable of torturing the invaders. And we don't need them to be saints to completely support their absolute right to defend their country.
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I don't think so. Now I wouldnt' begrudge them for the odd bit of mistreatment anyway tbh but I've not seen anything convincing yet to suggest they've crossed a line.
 
I’d be very surprised if a lot of lines hasn’t been crossed.

The scale of it is a different matter.
 
Simbo said:
I don't think so. Now I wouldnt' begrudge them for the odd bit of mistreatment anyway tbh but I've not seen anything convincing yet to suggest they've crossed a line.
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Lines will be crossed. Certainly not anywhere near what Russians are doing. But it’s war and it is going to happen. That’s just the way it is.
 
Simbo said:
I don't think so. Now I wouldnt' begrudge them for the odd bit of mistreatment anyway tbh but I've not seen anything convincing yet to suggest they've crossed a line.
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They've absolutely crossed the line into war crimes (both against Russians and against Russian-speakers/Roma in the Donbas). The scale of their treatment of Roma in particular (the Azov) is irrefutable really but we don't see (much of) it because we're supporting the other propaganda narrative. This is where they are tying people up and beating them. It was picked up by one "reputable" Western outlet but is known to all of them. Their decision to omit these things is intentional. I think the three dead bodies reported by a Ukrainian journalist and vetted by three Western outlets familiar with open source intelligence techniques is also convincing. I don't say it's 100% legitimate because you never know, but it is as legitimate as most stories we've heard about Russian atrocities and no one doubts those. If we excuse the Ukrainian atrocities we enter the territory where we give people permission to excuse the Russian atrocities (like bombing civillian corridors and any number of events in Mariupol).

Pintu said:
I think we are past the part where we supposed the Ukrainian army consisted entirely of angels that aren't capable of torturing the invaders. And we don't need them to be saints to completely support their absolute right to defend their country.
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Basically this. I don't know of a single war in history that hasn't seen war crimes committed by both sides, though perhaps asymmetrically. You aren't criticizing Ukraine's right to defend by exposing these (in fact, one good editorial I read noted that the best thing Ukraine could do would be to follow through on these investigations to demonstrate the difference between Kyiv and the Kremlin).
 
Mciahel Goodman said:
... Basically this. I don't know of a single war in history that hasn't seen war crimes committed by both sides, though perhaps asymmetrically. ...
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I'm sure war crimes have been committed by both sides, but in this war there's no "perhaps asymmetrically" about it : the Russian troops, by deliberate shelling, bombing and missile attacks on residential areas, have killed thousands of people. The UN's human rights office says it has verified 1,179 civilian deaths in Ukraine since the start of the war and a further 1,860 civilians have been wounded, with the actual figures believed to be much higher.

How many civilians or Russian POWs have have any Ukrainian soldiers deliberately killed in this war? I've no idea, but it can only be a fraction of the above.
 
GlastonSpur said:
I'm sure war crimes have been committed by both sides, but in this war there's no "perhaps asymmetrically" about it : the Russian troops, by deliberate shelling, bombing and missile attacks on residential areas, have killed thousands of people. The UN's human rights office says it has verified 1,179 civilian deaths in Ukraine since the start of the war and a further 1,860 civilians have been wounded, with the actual figures believed to be much higher.

How many civilians or Russian POWs have have any Ukrainian soldiers deliberately killed in this war? I've no idea, but it can only be a fraction of the above.
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That's why I said "asymmetrically" (the "perhaps" was a generalization pertaining to other wars, not this one). I don't dispute any of the above.
 
Mciahel Goodman said:
That's why I said "asymmetrically" (the "perhaps" was a generalization pertaining to other wars, not this one). I don't dispute any of the above.
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Then, why do you focus so much on Ukrainian crimes? Do you want to prove that Ukrainians are not saints? I really do not understand this. Almost all your postings seems to point to the fact that Ukrainians and NATO are not perfect, but you barely post any twitter links about Russian crimes. Yes, you admit that Russians are doing many more crimes in this war than the Ukrainians, but you post almost nothing about those many more crimes of the Russian side, even though you seem to care a lot about this war and you have created many posts about it.
 
frostbite said:
Then, why do you focus so much on Ukrainian crimes? Do you want to prove that Ukrainians are not saints? I really do not understand this. Almost all your postings seems to point to the fact that Ukrainians and NATO are not perfect, but you barely post any twitter links about Russian crimes. Yes, you admit that Russians are doing many more crimes in this war than the Ukrainians, but you post almost nothing about those many more crimes of the Russian side, even though you seem to care a lot about this war and you have created many posts about it.
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Maybe if we had people in here denying Russian war crimes there would be more to discuss. With the (many) alleged Russian war crimes they're taken at face value. We can post about how bad it is, how sad, or how shocking. We can talk about possible consequences. But there's not much to discuss. When we're talking about (far fewer) alleged Ukranian war crimes, however, there are a lot of denials (false flags, fabrications, etc.). So when we have what looks like a credible accusation there is something to discuss about what actually happened. Do we have video evidence of Russians rehearsing their acting, or do we have the same video of the alleged shootings but with music added to it?

A few months ago very few would have doubted that certain elements of the Ukranian forces are capable of these things, there's nothing out of character happening in that video if it turns out to be real. Now, because of how we view Russia and Ukraine, there's a lot of doubt. That's noteworthy.
 
There is a theory/suggestion doing the rounds, backed by at least some possible evidence, that Putin is actually dying - has a terminal illness - from some form of thyroid cancer. If this were actually to be true, it'd be disturbing on two counts:

1) His judgements/moods could be being affected by the meds he's taking.

2) He may not give feck about going out in a blaze of what he sees as "glory" and sees this as his last chance to achieve his "Greater Russia" ambitions
 
frostbite said:
Then, why do you focus so much on Ukrainian crimes? Do you want to prove that Ukrainians are not saints? I really do not understand this. Almost all your postings seems to point to the fact that Ukrainians and NATO are not perfect, but you barely post any twitter links about Russian crimes. Yes, you admit that Russians are doing many more crimes in this war than the Ukrainians, but you post almost nothing about those many more crimes of the Russian side, even though you seem to care a lot about this war and you have created many posts about it.
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It's important to hear all events/claims even inconvenient ones, they can then be discussed and discredited if needed. This accusation of motivate rather than the substance of content, because it's not favourable, is exactly what leads to blind spots.
 
NotThatSoph said:
Maybe if we had people in here denying Russian war crimes there would be more to discuss. With the (many) alleged Russian war crimes they're taken at face value. We can post about how bad it is, how sad, or how shocking. We can talk about possible consequences. But there's not much to discuss. When we're talking about (far fewer) alleged Ukranian war crimes, however, there are a lot of denials (false flags, fabrications, etc.). So when we have what looks like a credible accusation there is something to discuss about what actually happened. Do we have video evidence of Russians rehearsing their acting, or do we have the same video of the alleged shootings but with music added to it?

A few months ago very few would have doubted that certain elements of the Ukranian forces are capable of these things, there's nothing out of character happening in that video if it turns out to be real. Now, because of how we view Russia and Ukraine, there's a lot of doubt. That's noteworthy.
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Oh, how many russian civilians are in the Ukraine right now, or russian women that can be raped? I actually care less about some personal rights of soldiers that invade another country... And in some way I even can understand that you might not treat this soldiers who - or their mates - invade your country, bomb your homes and cities to ruins, kill civilians and rape your women (and do not deny that that happens in masses) very well...
 
Smores said:
It's important to hear all events/claims even inconvenient ones, they can then be discussed and discredited if needed. This accusation of motivate rather than the substance of content, because it's not favourable, is exactly what leads to blind spots.
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It is not an accusation, it is curiosity. I did not question motives, I posted a simple question because I am curious how someone else perceives this war.
 
Perhaps my perspective is very naive, but here is what my understanding is:

1. Are there good guys and bad guys in this war? Yes, definitely. Ukrainians are the good guys, Russians are the bad guys. And I consider Russians to have a collective responsibility for what is happening because for 20 years they have been largely supporting the autocrat Putin. Sure, if someone asked them today, they'd prefer not to invade Ukraine. The problem is that the majority of Russians, for 20 years, have signalled that they don't want to be asked such questions, they are fine with a dictator who makes these decisions. Only a small minority tried to change that, Putin killed them, the majority still voted for Putin. The average Russian is responsible for Putin, and Putin is the person who decided to start this war.

2. Does this mean that the average Ukrainian soldier is a "good person" and the average Russian soldier is a "bad person"? Definitely not! This would be racist, and logically unreasonable. The average soldier for each side is quite similar to the other side. The Russian soldiers are capable of cruelty and crimes. The Ukrainian soldiers are capable of cruelty are crimes. All wars have cruelty and crimes, because all armies have soldiers capable of cruelty and crimes. The best thing is to NOT start a war.

3. Does this mean that the two sides are equally guilty? Definitely not. Ukrainians did not want to invade Russia. There was no good reason for Russia to start this war.

It is quite simple actually. At least in my mind... Am I wrong?
 
Perhaps the only "controversial opinion" in what I wrote above, is that I really believe that the average Russian is responsible for Putin. But that's the abstract "average" Russian, not a particular individual. There are definitely victims in Russia, for example Navalny and many others who are in prison, or Nemtsov and many others who have been assassinated, or those who had to leave Russia because they were afraid, or those who are continually harassed by the police. Yes, there are many many victims in Russia today. However, these Russian victims are a minority. The majority has supported Putin for 20 years. The majority of Russians like that Putin is a strongman. In a similar way, the average German in 1937 did not want war against England, France, USA and Russia, but in 1937 they did like Hitler and they were happy that he was making all the "hard decisions". It was only after losing the war that they stopped supporting Hitler.
 
frostbite said:
Perhaps the only "controversial opinion" in what I wrote above, is that I really believe that the average Russian is responsible for Putin. But that's the abstract "average" Russian, not a particular individual. There are definitely victims in Russia, for example Navalny and many others who are in prison, or Nemtsov and many others who have been assassinated, or those who had to leave Russia because they were afraid, or those who are continually harassed by the police. Yes, there are many many victims in Russia today. However, these Russian victims are a minority. The majority has supported Putin for 20 years. The majority of Russians like that Putin is a strongman. In a similar way, the average German in 1937 did not want war against England, France, USA and Russia, but in 1937 they did like Hitler and they were happy that he was making all the "hard decisions". It was only after losing the war that they stopped supporting Hitler.
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This is spot on and can be applied to majority of former USSR states.
 
frostbite said:
Perhaps my perspective is very naive, but here is what my understanding is:

1. Are there good guys and bad guys in this war? Yes, definitely. Ukrainians are the good guys, Russians are the bad guys. And I consider Russians to have a collective responsibility for what is happening because for 20 years they have been largely supporting the autocrat Putin. Sure, if someone asked them today, they'd prefer not to invade Ukraine. The problem is that the majority of Russians, for 20 years, have signalled that they don't want to be asked such questions, they are fine with a dictator who makes these decisions. Only a small minority tried to change that, Putin killed them, the majority still voted for Putin. The average Russian is responsible for Putin, and Putin is the person who decided to start this war.

2. Does this mean that the average Ukrainian soldier is a "good person" and the average Russian soldier is a "bad person"? Definitely not! This would be racist, and logically unreasonable. The average soldier for each side is quite similar to the other side. The Russian soldiers are capable of cruelty and crimes. The Ukrainian soldiers are capable of cruelty are crimes. All wars have cruelty and crimes, because all armies have soldiers capable of cruelty and crimes. The best thing is to NOT start a war.

3. Does this mean that the two sides are equally guilty? Definitely not. Ukrainians did not want to invade Russia. There was no good reason for Russia to start this war.

It is quite simple actually. At least in my mind... Am I wrong?
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No.

I agree with everything you've said here
 
Blackwidow said:
Oh, how many russian civilians are in the Ukraine right now, or russian women that can be raped? I actually care less about some personal rights of soldiers that invade another country... And in some way I even can understand that you might not treat this soldiers who - or their mates - invade your country, bomb your homes and cities to ruins, kill civilians and rape your women (and do not deny that that happens in masses) very well...
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It’s as simple as that. It’s disgusting to see how guys like @Mciahel Goodman trying to do their best to muddle the waters here (target audience: those just casually following this war) by implying there are two sides to it. I’m surprised he hasn’t been banned from posting in this thread.
 
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UpWithRivers said:
This makes no sense at all. So what is Abramovich going to do if he is sanctioned. Refuse to do the peace talks? Be less peaceful? What? Who gives a sht if your enemy is sanctioned. 'Oh Mr Zelensky I know we have a lot to discuss but I am not feeling to good these days. Its all these sanctions. Can you tell Biden to stop the sanctioning so we can talk nicely?' I mean wtf?
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I'm also sceptical of the Abramovich poisoning story.
 
Seems to be suggesting that the “Ukrainian attack” in Belgorod was either a Russian feck-up or malfunction.

The wording is a bit imprecise and I assume it is referring to the fuel depot attack itself and not a subsequent missile after that attack.

 
I keep repeating it, but this has been my fear since the Russian’s flopped in the opening week. They never needed that much territory to cause a lot of long-termer pain to Ukraine:

 
GlastonSpur said:
There is a theory/suggestion doing the rounds, backed by at least some possible evidence, that Putin is actually dying - has a terminal illness - from some form of thyroid cancer. If this were actually to be true, it'd be disturbing on two counts:

1) His judgements/moods could be being affected by the meds he's taking.

2) He may not give feck about going out in a blaze of what he sees as "glory" and sees this as his last chance to achieve his "Greater Russia" ambitions
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Arguably him being close to death makes it even less likely to go out in a blaze, as his generals will have less reason to follow orders they don’t consider rational. End of the day we need to remember he’s not the one fighting out there, he still needs his troops to follow up on his ideas.
 
Sarni said:
Arguably him being close to death makes it even less likely to go out in a blaze, as his generals will have less reason to follow orders they don’t consider rational. End of the day we need to remember he’s not the one fighting out there, he still needs his troops to follow up on his ideas.
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A bit like Nixon & nukes.
 
Blackwidow said:
Oh, how many russian civilians are in the Ukraine right now, or russian women that can be raped? I actually care less about some personal rights of soldiers that invade another country... And in some way I even can understand that you might not treat this soldiers who - or their mates - invade your country, bomb your homes and cities to ruins, kill civilians and rape your women (and do not deny that that happens in masses) very well...
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I don't think it's a competition, you can care more about Ukranian civilians than Russian soldiers without excusing war crimes. And lets be clear here, by not "treat these soldiers well", you mean torture. Not even torture to gain information, which I guess is relevant if you want to rank bads, but torture just for the hell of it. And, again if we want to rank bads, we're not talking about ordinary Ukranian soldiers with clouded judgements due to all the injustices, we're talking about fascists doing what fascists do.
 
frostbite said:
Then, why do you focus so much on Ukrainian crimes? Do you want to prove that Ukrainians are not saints? I really do not understand this. Almost all your postings seems to point to the fact that Ukrainians and NATO are not perfect, but you barely post any twitter links about Russian crimes. Yes, you admit that Russians are doing many more crimes in this war than the Ukrainians, but you post almost nothing about those many more crimes of the Russian side, even though you seem to care a lot about this war and you have created many posts about it.
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No one denies Russian war crimes. It isn't about proving Ukrainians aren't saints. It's about preventing the scope for legitimate debate being narrowed so far that we ignore atrocities because they prove inconvenient to our preferred narrative. The Russian bombardment of Mariupol is one big war crime. The Ukrainian treatment of POWs and Roma civillians is also a war crime. You can't be selective about criminality in war to the extent that you hold one side up as faultless and another as purely evil. It's an interesting feature of Western media (in this moment) whereby they feel the need to rehabilitate the likes of the Azov because they're working to a zero criticism policy regarding Ukraine. That approach backfires. By compromising your basic moral editorial code for one repugnant element (which happens to be a minority) you open the door to mistrust, doubt, and secondary contamination of the Ukrainian war effort as a whole because you have demonstrated a will to bend your credibility depending on how convenient it is to report the truth.

But for the bold. I pointed out the civillian corridor war crime weeks ago. Aside from that, I don't see much need to post about Russian war crimes because they are taken for granted. It represents the dominant theme in this thread and no one, that I see, disputes any of them. Human Rights Watch and other watchdogs like that have confirmed a whole series of Russian atrocities and their record is almost spotless.
 
Rajma said:
It’s as simple as that. It’s disgusting to see how guys like @Mciahel Goodman trying to do their best to muddle the waters here (target audience: those just casually following this war) by implying there are two sides to it. I’m surprised he hasn’t been banned from posting in this thread.
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I've stopped engaging with you as it seems pointless. You don't seem to take fact into account. But there are many sides to this war and you can deal with all of them on their own terms according to their merits and historical context.
 
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