- Joined
- Jun 1, 2000
- Messages
- 121,652
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- Dublin, Ireland
- Caf Award
- Caf Lifetime Achievement Award 2005
The movie is on NetflixThat wasnt our finest moment.
Just finished reading that book recently.
The movie is on NetflixThat wasnt our finest moment.
Just finished reading that book recently.
I have been quite critical of the Russian people in my last few posts harms. I would genuinely like to know though;
- Do you think the average Russian has an interest in finding alternative sources of information?
- Do they believe that the state news/information sources are accurate?
- If everyone in Russia had access to multiple news platforms and could see 'the truth', what would be the result? Apathy or revolution? (Or something in between).
I fear I am an example of how Western sentiment is shifting from "This is Putin's war, the Russian people are innocent" to "feck the lot of them". The crimes and atrocities being committed by Russian troops. The stories of people calling back to their relatives in Russia only to be disbelieved.... it starts to paint a picture that the average Russian either supports what is happening, or is at least indifferent enough to not really give a shit. We are fast reaching points of no-return, where I dont think there can be any peaceful coexistence with Russia in its current form.
Russia has a huge collective feeling of historical ressentiment that Putin had been nurturing throughout his entire rule — the idea that Russia had been robbed of its superpower status by outside forces. There’s a complete lack of postcolonial awareness of our shared collective past. Russia hadn’t really worked out the trauma of WW2, instead sublimating all that energy into patriotic sentiment. It hasn’t really resolved the internal trauma of Stalin’s repressions, keeping alive the idea that huge goals can justify any potential losses, including human life.
- Nope
- Yeah
- It’s an interesting point that is impossible to prove, really. I’m pretty sure that we wouldn’t have been here if free press wasn’t eliminated by Putin in a systemic fashion over the past 2 decades. If you somehow magically return access to other opinions to all of Russians… do you return the access technically? Or do you somehow convince everyone to watch the alternative version as well?
I do think that Putin’s regime is doomed now from a historical perspective — but the eventual public disillusionment will come from the economical collapse, not from a sudden ethical understanding of Russia’s crimes in Ukraine. And even though the regime doesn’t have an option of coming back from this in my opinion, it has enough brute force to theoretically hold on for years.
And they will blame the West again. And they will have even more resentment.
One of the big problems is that Russia never faced their past. Nothing like what Germany did with Hitler and the Nazis. Never admitted that the whole Soviet model, and the Czarist model as well, were rotten to the core. Not just Stalin, who is an easy target, everyone involved with the communist party (like everyone involved with the Nazi party), those thousands and thousands of officers, policemen and wardens who killed, tortured, and destroyed millions of innocent people.
How many officers who tortured prisoners at the gulags were indicted? How much do they teach at schools today about the gulags, and the police state, and the tortures, and the executions? Nothing. Because if they did, the people would never accept a KGB officer as the head of the state. It is like Germany in 1955 picking a former Nazi officer as their Prime Minister! And that's the reason that Germany became a modern democracy, while Russia became a police state again. Germans are ashamed of their Nazi past, Russians are proud of the Soviet Empire.
And yet we see in Germany even to this day a big difference between western occupied parts of Germany and the Soviet occupied parts. Even 30 years after the reunification you can still see a lot of different mentality, at least in the older people. It's slowly decreasing, but it takes decades to really become one people again.This is 100% true and there's a good reason why Germany is one of the few states where a true change took place. The reason for that is pretty simple, imo: the country was completely crushed on almost every level and afterwards occupied by forces that share cultural heritage with Germany and actually took care of the economic situation. Otherwise, Germany would look very different.
And yet we see in Germany even to this day a big difference between western occupied parts of Germany and the Soviet occupied parts. Even 30 years after the reunification you can still see a lot of different mentality, at least in the older people. It's slowly decreasing, but it takes decades to really become one people again.
Would I be wrong to say that the real cultural change only happened in the late 60's/70's? With Willy Brandt, RAF etc.This is 100% true and there's a good reason why Germany is one of the few states where a true change took place. The reason for that is pretty simple, imo: the country was completely crushed on almost every level and afterwards occupied by forces that share cultural heritage with Germany and actually took care of the economic situation. Otherwise, Germany would look very different.
BoJo being a double agent all alongOld Vladimir must be regretting supporting a snake like Boris all these years eh?
You would be right. After the war it was necessary to keep a lot of people who worked for the Nazis as part of government, businesses etc. Getting rid of everyone would just have led to total collapse, so at first only the worst Nazis were expelled from their offices etc.Would I be wrong to say that the real cultural change only happened in the late 60's/70's? With Willy Brandt, RAF etc.
Would I be wrong to say that the real cultural change only happened in the late 60's/70's? With Willy Brandt, RAF etc.
Those who are against the war are unlikely to be giving interviews in the middle of the street because of the hatchet men. Or they probably already left the country.
But that said there are definitely a lot of pro war people, all of whom who deserve the rotten economy that's coming.
Very much this. Why would you say something in an interview like that and be potentially thrown in prison for 15 years and indanger the lives of your loved ones. Unfortunately the only way anything changes in Russia is for a group with genuine power to mutiny. Not for a random person in the street to do an interview.
I doubt we'll ever find out the true reflection of those for and against the war.
Yeah but It's very easy for tough men posting here to say they'd hypothetically be out protesting and taking on the Russian state.
I'm sure if there's a significant moment where it looks like things are turning plenty with be out in Russia. I think that would need the military turning or an internal move against Putin.
Russia has a huge collective feeling of historical ressentiment that Putin had been nurturing throughout his entire rule — the idea that Russia had been robbed of its superpower status by outside forces. There’s a complete lack of postcolonial awareness of our shared collective past. Russia hadn’t really worked out the trauma of WW2, instead sublimating all that energy into patriotic sentiment. It hasn’t really resolved the internal trauma of Stalin’s repressions, keeping alive the idea that huge goals can justify any potential losses, including human life.
- Nope
- Yeah
- It’s an interesting point that is impossible to prove, really. I’m pretty sure that we wouldn’t have been here if free press wasn’t eliminated by Putin in a systemic fashion over the past 2 decades. If you somehow magically return access to other opinions to all of Russians… do you return the access technically? Or do you somehow convince everyone to watch the alternative version as well?
I do think that Putin’s regime is doomed now from a historical perspective — but the eventual public disillusionment will come from the economical collapse, not from a sudden ethical understanding of Russia’s crimes in Ukraine. And even though the regime doesn’t have an option of coming back from this in my opinion, it has enough brute force to theoretically hold on for years.
I am not Russian, but here is my understanding:
The majority of Russians believe that they are something special, something very different from the average western person. The majority of Russians wanted a strongman as the head of their state, because they also believe that only a strongman can lead them to their destiny as a nation, like the Czar or Stalin etc. A messy democracy, changing head of state every 3-4 years, these things cannot survive in Russia (that's what they believe). You can see that in Dostoyevski, but you can also see the same thing in Solzhenitsyn, who lived in USA for many years but actually deeply disliked "the west" and believed that the western model of democracy would be catastrophic for Russia. So, for many Russians the Strongman is an absolute necessity. (Of course, this is indoctrination, the various strongmen in their history encouraged this worldview, but what can you do now? Nothing. That's why nothing happened after the murder of Nemtsov, the Strongman is expected to show his strength from time to time. )
For the past 20 years, the majority of Russians believe that they have found the RIGHT strongman to lead them. For most of them there is no alternative. So, yes, they deeply believe that Putin is doing the right thing. It is their man on the top, he can't be wrong. This is their team, and Putin is their captain, they have to support him.
Then, in their mind, everything is the fault of the West. Why did the West get involved with Ukraine at all? Ukraine is their nephew, they have to take care of the weird nephew, perhaps a little pain will happen (naturally!) but there is no reason for the West to get involved, it is THEIR family after all. Even if things got a bit wrong in the process, again it is because the West got involved and messed up everything, otherwise the whole thing would be over in two days without any difficulties.
What can you say against such ingrained beliefs?
I'd agree with this. It's basically the same in the UK but on a vastly smaller scale of consequences.
What's basically the same?
I do think that Putin’s regime is doomed now from a historical perspective — but the eventual public disillusionment will come from the economical collapse, not from a sudden ethical understanding of Russia’s crimes in Ukraine. And even though the regime doesn’t have an option of coming back from this in my opinion, it has enough brute force to theoretically hold on for years.
And do this to a sufficient degree before far right elements manage to install themselves in western countries.There will be no compromise, no peace between these two nations for generations/centuries. The main aim should be to help Ukranian army as much as possible.
Russia has a huge collective feeling of historical ressentiment that Putin had been nurturing throughout his entire rule — the idea that Russia had been robbed of its superpower status by outside forces. There’s a complete lack of postcolonial awareness of our shared collective past. Russia hadn’t really worked out the trauma of WW2, instead sublimating all that energy into patriotic sentiment. It hasn’t really resolved the internal trauma of Stalin’s repressions, keeping alive the idea that huge goals can justify any potential losses, including human life.
- Nope
- Yeah
- It’s an interesting point that is impossible to prove, really. I’m pretty sure that we wouldn’t have been here if free press wasn’t eliminated by Putin in a systemic fashion over the past 2 decades. If you somehow magically return access to other opinions to all of Russians… do you return the access technically? Or do you somehow convince everyone to watch the alternative version as well?
I do think that Putin’s regime is doomed now from a historical perspective — but the eventual public disillusionment will come from the economical collapse, not from a sudden ethical understanding of Russia’s crimes in Ukraine. And even though the regime doesn’t have an option of coming back from this in my opinion, it has enough brute force to theoretically hold on for years.
Take as much moral high ground as you want. Realistically, the ONLY reason Russia hasnt been pounded into submission over their continued aggression is their nuclear arsenal - which they continue to overtly threaten the west with.
Russia is a problem and the world would be better off without Russia in its current form. That doesn’t mean every Russian person should be killed, but the country itself is a problem for the world right now, basically a giant sized North Korea with nukes.
The Carthage reference was mildly tongue in cheek, but I do not believe that peaceful coexistence with Russia is possible any more. At best it will be another Cold War. Their actions are also forcing other global nations to “pick a side”, and the world feels like it is in a very dangerous and precarious position right now.
At least the oil & gas embargo is pretty much guaranteed, I'd imagine.I wonder what more the West has to see to seriously ramp up their involvement? Never thought we’d see cynical civilian deaths on this scale in whole settlements. It’s one thing to take the long term, low-risk approach to managing a war on your doorstep. It’s another thing entirely to tolerate genocide.
But based on what especially @harms and @Demyanenko_square_jaw are saying here, I wouldn't be too optimistic about what that change could bring.Very much this. Why would you say something in an interview like that and be potentially thrown in prison for 15 years and indanger the lives of your loved ones. Unfortunately the only way anything changes in Russia is for a group with genuine power to mutiny. Not for a random person in the street to do an interview.
I doubt we'll ever find out the true reflection of those for and against the war.
It's the kind of stuff that makes people disheartened about humanity as a whole sometimes. When do we grow the feck up to not repeat mistakes of the past?
The positive of this hypothetical change is that they would most likely want to ease up the sanctions, and I'd imagine that getting the army back out of Ukraine won't be enough to do so. Whoever hypothetically does this, they won't have the same political capital as Putin has as it's very much tied to his personality. They'll need to show economical growth etc., which is almost impossible to imagine without active collaboration with the outside world.But based on what especially @harms and @Demyanenko_square_jaw are saying here, I wouldn't be too optimistic about what that change could bring.
A new leader would probably try to back out of Ukraine ASAP given how the invasion is going for Russia, and that would be good, obviously. But otherwise, new leaders most likely would come from the current circles of the mighty and hence probably wouldn't be very different from Putin in their attitudes to democracy/autocracy. And given how the Russian people have been brainwashed, and will now be suffering due to the sanctions, the new leaders likely won't be any less nationalistic and anti-western either.
So that would be change, but not really for the better; more of the same, rather. And I think current western actions don't intend any different. The long-term plan isn't to improve things for Russians, but to seize on the current situation to crush Russia out of global significance, whatever the cost for the Russian people.
Not that I would know how things could be done differently, especially without a huge cost in turn for Ukrainians; but none of it leads to much optimism for me. As always, the High & Mighty make their moves (including the dead-end Russian propaganda that has brainwashed its population into supporting suicidal policies and actions), and the common people suffer.
Ali Velshi calling for the curtain to drop
Ali Velshi calling for the curtain to drop
... The long-term plan isn't to improve things for Russians, but to seize on the current situation to crush Russia out of global significance, whatever the cost for the Russian people.
I agree with this, but not NATO.We need either NATO or UN-backed Blue Helmets to get in there regardless now. Russia should be forced into forced recusal for whatever international vote is made on the situation in Ukraine.