Mauricio Amadaeus Pochettino | Chelsea sack watch

[Revaulx]

I don't think Pochettino would need that many excuses because I don't think that he would fail, which is actually a worry for me. Pochettino is good and stable enough to maintain United at a respectable level and the worry is how many seasons will we go without winning while also being "contenders".

Interesting! That’s exactly what I thought the moment we appointed Moyes. I never dreamed he’d take us to seventh…

 

[Andrade]

You could have said the same about Tuchel though, he was underwhelming at PSG and got fired mid season for poor results yet months later wins the CL with Chelsea.

The French league is shite, PSG had it won in November and their squad is full of 'Superstars' who barely give a feck the motivation for them is money that's the only reason they're at PSG in the first place. Fecking Neymar and Messi taking him about 2m a week in wages turning up to play Clermont foot and Reims every week.

They went with the superstar route overpaying players to come in for a quick win they'd do better buying the best young players from around Europe then a coach like Tuchel or Poch would probably be a success for the long term.

But this is totally false, you couldn't have said the same thing about Tuchel at all. I watched the Tuchel team and the Poch team. Yes, in Tuchel's last season it all fell apart. But for much of his time there, PSG were extremely dominant and Neymar was playing out of his skin in particular. They were a narrow CL final loss away from a quadruple, don't forget.

Poch seems capable of only winning one domestic trophy a year with a billion pound squad. Last season it was the French Cup, because he couldn't win the league. This season he'll win the league (with some very up and down performances) but no cups. He's been less successful so far than his 3 immediate predecessors, Tuchel, Emery and Blanc.

As I said, he seems to be missing something as a coach when it comes to getting teams over the line, and that was evident at Spurs too, even if we make allowances for financial constraints.

 

[JPRouve]

Mate, I'm just pulling your leg, I largely agree with most things you say

I wasn't sure, it seems that people don't consider the 5th team as good team which to me is a bit weird but the idea is seemingly popular.

 

[RedC]

Well, I dont see why having young players is a stick against Poch but the same principle is not applied to ETH.

If Poch was lucky, so was Ten Hag to have a group of talented young players like De Ligt, De Jong that came through the academy.

It's not a stick to beat him with, it's context to his time at Spurs. He also managed to completely ruin his team to the point where they were around the relegation zone. Ten Hag has had a revolving door of players leaving since he joined Ajax, and has been able to maintain consistency both in the league and in the CL, he hasn't had a team capitulate like Pochettino has. There are a number of reasons that indicate why we shouldn't choose Pochettino, but not a lot for ten Hag, because he hasn't been in a position like the Utd job yet.

 

[JPRouve]

In that time they had AVB and Tim Sherwood as managers are you telling me they did a good job then?

In those seasons they beat the likes of Newcastle (2012) to 4th place then finished 5th a year later ahead of Everton i wouldn't call those sides top teams either

Remember when he took over City and Liverpool we're both on the rise they had been 2 dead clubs for years beforehand the top 4 had started to turn into the top 6 in those early Poch years.

Yes, they did a good job. The issue was that it wasn't enough, Tottenham wanted to push for higher rankings and more titles.

Tottenham were 5th on average for 6 seasons, I purposely used an average to not rely on outliers.

Do you know which teams had these records around 2014? 1- 8th, 7th, 2nd, 6th 8th. 2- 5th- 6th, 5th, 3rd, 2nd.

 

[Long Time Red]

Is that was suggested?

Pochettino inherited Kane, Rose, Walker, Dembélé, Eriksen, Vertonghen and Lloris. Which was the backbone of his team, to that Spurs added Alli, Son, Alderweireld and Moura.

There are three important facts about Spurs and Pochettino, he inherited a young and talented team. He is not responsible for the good and bad signings since it wasn't his job. He did a good job with the players at his disposal but it wasn't exceptional or miraculous.

They were just talents at that stage, he coached them into the players they became.

 

[Mickeza]

I wasn't sure, it seems that people don't consider the 5th team as good team which to me is a bit weird but the idea is seemingly popular.

We’ve finished 2nd twice in the last four years and most on here think we’re shite full of championship level players. It’s the way of the CAF.

 

[bosnian_red]

In that time they had AVB and Tim Sherwood as managers are you telling me they did a good job then?

In those seasons they beat the likes of Newcastle (2012) to 4th place then finished 5th a year later ahead of Everton i wouldn't call those sides top teams either

From 2009/10 until Pochettino took over:

• 4th
• 5th
• 4th
• 5th
• 6th

Pochettino takes over:

• 5th (10th in xPts)
• 3rd (3rd in xPts)
• 2nd (3rd in xPts)
• 3rd (3rd in xPts)
• 4th (5th in xPts)
• Sacked in 14th (11th in xPts)

Basically he had that 3 year stretch where he turned them into the 3rd best side in the league, a lot of it to do with just having a very strong squad at good ages (when before they were just the 5th best side). Lloris, Walker, Alderweireld, Vertonghen, Dembele, Eriksen, Son and Kane all at their primes at the same time, and Dele Alli joining as a young guy. Pochettino having signed Alderweireld, Son and Dele from that group...

In fact in his entire time there, those 3 players are the only ones that were important signings under him. Sure they signed Lucas and Trippier, but neither were ever key for Spurs or Pochettino. They built a very good group of players who peaked at the time Pochettino came in, and he did a good job with them, without doing anything significant. However, was it actually all that different to Ole's time at United? The more money that was spent by both, the worse it got, but both pretty much peaked as being the best of the rest after the real title challengers, held it for a few years and then dropped.

There are loads of managers that can do that if they get a good group of players at the right ages. Getting to the point where you are a somewhat steady top 4 team isn't the hardest thing in the world if you have the financial backing/player quality. Pochettino had that enough to be a good team. But he didn't have enough to be anything more. Every bit they spent didn't improve them. Their form declined as players aged, and he never showed any quality that he could adapt, improve, make a step up.

 

[balaks]

From 2009/10 until Pochettino took over:

• 4th
• 5th
• 4th
• 5th
• 6th

Pochettino takes over:

• 5th (10th in xPts)
• 3rd (3rd in xPts)
• 2nd (3rd in xPts)
• 3rd (3rd in xPts)
• 4th (5th in xPts)
• Sacked in 14th (11th in xPts)

Basically he had that 3 year stretch where he turned them into the 3rd best side in the league, a lot of it to do with just having a very strong squad at good ages (when before they were just the 5th best side). Lloris, Walker, Alderweireld, Vertonghen, Dembele, Eriksen, Son and Kane all at their primes at the same time, and Dele Alli joining as a young guy. Pochettino having signed Alderweireld, Son and Dele from that group...

In fact in his entire time there, those 3 players are the only ones that were important signings under him. Sure they signed Lucas and Trippier, but neither were ever key for Spurs or Pochettino. They built a very good group of players who peaked at the time Pochettino came in, and he did a good job with them, without doing anything significant. However, was it actually all that different to Ole's time at United? The more money that was spent by both, the worse it got, but both pretty much peaked as being the best of the rest after the real title challengers, held it for a few years and then dropped.

There are loads of managers that can do that if they get a good group of players at the right ages. Getting to the point where you are a somewhat steady top 4 team isn't the hardest thing in the world if you have the financial backing/player quality. Pochettino had that enough to be a good team. But he didn't have enough to be anything more. Every bit they spent didn't improve them. Their form declined as players aged, and he never showed any quality that he could adapt, improve, make a step up.

You are missing the fact that Poch wasn't backed at all for 2 entire transfer windows - when we signed no players at all. This is the reason the squad declined so badly.

 

[anant]

So are you saying if Ten Hag is appointed and fails, you won't use the above excuses?

I think none of our managers who got sacked have a right to complain on grounds that they weren't backed. At most, a few managers may claim that some players were signed without them having asked for it - Falcao, Ronaldo, but apart from that, I really can't see how a manager can complain about not being backed.

If Ten Hag fails, it'll be because of him not being up for it, rather than board not backing him. Plus, I dont think a manager has been punished for board's laziness in signing a player. DM or no DM, us under Ole were not performing well enough (this coming from someone who loves Ole), and you can make similar case for all the managers before him as well

 

[Tavern in the town]

I don’t want Poch but it’s really strange to me when people bring up the lack or trophies or try to revise his time at Spurs. Consistent top 4 finishes, an 86 point season, wins against Real Madrid and Juventus and reaching a Champions League final for me is far more impressive than winning an FA Cup or two. I don’t even see how that’s up for debate. Has Arteta done a better job at Arsenal because he won the FA cup while finishing 8th twice?

 

[romufc]

It's not a stick to beat him with, it's context to his time at Spurs. He also managed to completely ruin his team to the point where they were around the relegation zone. Ten Hag has had a revolving door of players leaving since he joined Ajax, and has been able to maintain consistency both in the league and in the CL, he hasn't had a team capitulate like Pochettino has. There are a number of reasons that indicate why we shouldn't choose Pochettino, but not a lot for ten Hag, because he hasn't been in a position like the Utd job yet.

Yep, context is good but what consistency are you on about? They failed to beat Benfica in the first knock out round this season, they failed to make it through the group stages last season and the season before, so really they had one outstanding year which is an outlier.

ETH hasn't had a team capitulate because he has barely got teams to a stage to be able to do that, when he did, they threw a 3 goal lead to Pochettino's Spurs.

 

[JPRouve]

They were just talents at that stage, he coached them into the players they became.

Which is why he is clearly a good coach. That's the thing guys, at no point do I suggest that he isn't a good coach, he simply isn't a great coach.

 

[bosnian_red]

They were just talents at that stage, he coached them into the players they became.

And he gets partial credit for getting them to click together. But the reality is that he had a group of players at the perfect ages to have a 3-4 year really good spell. I doubt he had much impact transfer wise, because if we assume he had a big impact on transfers, then that would be a big negative against him as they largely weren't good during his time there. Nobody can know how it would've panned out had somebody else been there.

By that logic though, Ole gets the same partial credit for our past 3 years. We had a young group and with some signings were a decent collective with a good attitude and a few really good talents. In the league, there basically was no difference between Pochettino with Spurs and Ole with United. Comfortable top 4 without being a true title challenger for a few years, and then dropping down a level.

 

[romufc]

I think none of our managers who got sacked have a right to complain on grounds that they weren't backed. At most, a few managers may claim that some players were signed without them having asked for it - Falcao, Ronaldo, but apart from that, I really can't see how a manager can complain about not being backed.

If Ten Hag fails, it'll be because of him not being up for it, rather than board not backing him. Plus, I dont think a manager has been punished for board's laziness in signing a player. DM or no DM, us under Ole were not performing well enough (this coming from someone who loves Ole), and you can make similar case for all the managers before him as well

I agree in that no manager can claim not to be backed, every manager has had £150m to spend in their first season, which is enough to make changes. Managers have got players of their choice and no manager gets everyone they want.

As a manager, you have to be able to work with what you have got and make the best of it, not having a DM is an excuse not to win the PL but its no excuse to lose 4-1 to Watford or fail to score against Wartford at home.

 

[anant]

They were just talents at that stage, he coached them into the players they became.

Walker had won YPOTY, been part of TOTS, Eriksen was Spurs POTS winner, Dembele and Vertonghen were regulars of a pretty decent Belgian side, and both were in the peak years.

Rose, while 24, hadn't done a lot, and Kane was getting started - so I can give you those two.

Poch is a good manager, but let's not go overboard in praising him for things that he didn't do

 

[ti vu]

I don’t want Poch but it’s really strange to me when people bring up the lack or trophies or try to revise his time at Spurs. Consistent top 4 finishes, an 86 point season, wins against Real Madrid and Juventus and reaching a Champions League final for me is far more impressive than winning an FA Cup or two. I don’t even see how that’s up for debate. Has Arteta done a better job at Arsenal because he won the FA cup while finishing 8th twice?

That's ETH's Ajax.

This is what Juventus thinks about Tottenham

 

[RedC]

Yep, context is good but what consistency are you on about? They failed to beat Benfica in the first knock out round this season, they failed to make it through the group stages last season and the season before, so really they had one outstanding year which is an outlier.

ETH hasn't had a team capitulate because he has barely got teams to a stage to be able to do that, when he did, they threw a 3 goal lead to Pochettino's Spurs.

He has gotten them out of the group stages twice in 4 years, just doing that is an achievement for a team like Ajax these days. He got them to a semi final on one of those occasions, he is constantly losing players to bigger clubs, again, when you actually understand context, these things start to make more sense.

 

[AltiUn]

I don’t want Poch but it’s really strange to me when people bring up the lack or trophies or try to revise his time at Spurs. Consistent top 4 finishes, an 86 point season, wins against Real Madrid and Juventus and reaching a Champions League final for me is far more impressive than winning an FA Cup or two. I don’t even see how that’s up for debate. Has Arteta done a better job at Arsenal because he won the FA cup while finishing 8th twice?

Winning trophies is our bread and butter, or at least it should be, we don't really want a manager who nearly won things. Had he won a trophy or two alongside getting a good points haul or reaching the CL final then he'd be looked on more favourably, he undoubtably had a good enough team to win a League Cup or FA cup in the years he spent in England yet fell short every year, even van Gaal and Mourinho managed similar feats with us.

Klopp won the league with Dortmund twice before joining Liverpool, Guardiola's trophy cabinet speaks for itself even if there were people initially sceptical, the CL is the Holy Grail of club football and should've been enough for everyone to know he's the real deal (also a big reason I wanted Enrique so much), Tuchel won trophies at Dortmund against a vastly superior Bayern, Conte won the league at his last 3 clubs ... these would be Pochettino's competition, every single one of them has more trophy-laden cabinets than him, which isn't the be-all and end-all but it is undeniable proof of their ceiling and their ability to translate their ideas into silverware.

Does winning the odd FA cup mean Arteta is going to be a great manager? No, but it does suggest he's got a promising ceiling.

 

[bosnian_red]

Yep, context is good but what consistency are you on about? They failed to beat Benfica in the first knock out round this season, they failed to make it through the group stages last season and the season before, so really they had one outstanding year which is an outlier.

ETH hasn't had a team capitulate because he has barely got teams to a stage to be able to do that, when he did, they threw a 3 goal lead to Pochettino's Spurs.

Ajax in the CL are always massive underdogs, given finances and squad quality. They perform as favourites because of coaching. What Ten Hag has shown is the versatility to adapt to whatever transition in playing staff he has. He has been there for 4.5 seasons, had a constant turnover in players, and yet has always adapted their tactics to still be a dominant team that plays great football and scores a stupid amount of goals. In the CL despite their limitations in squad quality, they still have good performances and play good football, but obviously more inconsistency in result there. In 18/19 when he had his best group of players, they made the CL semi finals, and Spurs had that dramatic turnaround to come back. Some of that collapse was probably on Ten Hag. A lot on the players. They were all young, new, relatively inexperienced so that definitely played a part in the mental panic that led to the collapse after dominating the tie for 3/4 of it.

What Ten Hag has shown, is his teams consistently play great football, and consistently perform. Sometimes they don't have the luck, sometimes they don't have the quality to see games out or get the winner in the CL, but they still put in performances as a collective that far surpass the group of players they have. And, most importantly, he's shown the ability to adapt their tactics to whatever group he has. Lose De Jong, De Ligt, Dolberg all in the same summer, still show a really high level of performance despite completely changing styles. Lose Ziyech, Van de Beek, Dest the next summer, proceed to dominate in the league again despite changing and adapting tactics again. Always a new key player. Always a new player to focus around. Still play great attacking football. Both season perform solidly in the CL but be unlucky to drop to the Europa League because of a tough group and some bad luck. He's always shown adaptability and the knowledge to know how to change something when required to keep being successful while still playing good football. That's as important as anything, and precisely what Pochettino has failed to show.

 

[JPRouve]

Winning trophies is our bread and butter, or at least it should be, we don't really want a manager who nearly won things. Had he won a trophy or two alongside getting a good points haul or reaching the CL final then he'd be looked on more favourably, he undoubtably had a good enough team to win a League Cup or FA cup in the years he spent in England yet fell short every year, even van Gaal and Mourinho managed similar feats with us.

Klopp won the league with Dortmund twice before joining Liverpool, Guardiola's trophy cabinet speaks for itself even if there were people initially sceptical, the CL is the Holy Grail of club football and should've been enough for everyone to know he's the real deal (also a big reason I wanted Enrique so much), Tuchel won trophies at Dortmund against a vastly superior Bayern, Conte won the league at his last 3 clubs ... these would be Pochettino's competition, every single one of them has more trophy-laden cabinets than him, which isn't the be-all and end-all but it is undeniable proof of their ceiling and their ability to translate their ideas into silverware.

Does winning the odd FA cup mean Arteta is going to be a great manager? No, but it does suggest he's got a promising ceiling.

Honestly we don't need to go that far. We can just limit our evaluation to Spurs historical level, who thinks that Tottenham under Pochettino couldn't do better than than round of 16 of the Europa League? I have rarely seen a manager afforded that many excuses when he has nearly no history of success, even Ancelotti is criticized for his lack of league titles.

 

[romufc]

He has gotten them out of the group stages twice in 4 years, just doing that is an achievement for a team like Ajax these days. He got them to a semi final on one of those occasions, he is constantly losing players to bigger clubs, again, when you actually understand context, these things start to make more sense.

So would you say Benfica and Valencia are better than Ajax? Benfica have played 9 quarter finals ties, lost all 9. Yet, I am been told Ajax have a better coach but cant get past them. Valencia who barely qualify for the CL every year finish above them in the groups, yet I am told Ajax have a better coach.

CL groups is not all 4 big clubs btw, you get 1 big club and 2 if you get unlucky. So he hasn;t rebuilt teams if he cant get out the CL.

 

[bosnian_red]

You are missing the fact that Poch wasn't backed at all for 2 entire transfer windows - when we signed no players at all. This is the reason the squad declined so badly.

Yes they had 1 year of 0 signings (crazy of course), but you can't blame the entire decline on that? Spending €120m the year before and €150m the year after should have helped cover that year where a lot of it was stadium related i think? Pochettino was also faced with making the step up at that point, and he couldn't do it. There comes a point for every team that is at 3rd/4th place level where they either make the step up, or they drop. Happened with Ole and United this past summer, happened with Pochettino, happened with Klopp with Liverpool (except he actually made the step up). Pochettino didn't show the ability to make a change to get the squad up a level. And when you look at player quality - can anyone really say Pochettino overachieved with the squad he had? He had arguably as good a squad as anyone during 15/16 and 16/17. After that of course City took over in that regard, but it's not like Pochettino punched above his weight and lost out the title to just better players on paper.

 

[Marwood]

He has gotten them out of the group stages twice in 4 years, just doing that is an achievement for a team like Ajax these days. He got them to a semi final on one of those occasions, he is constantly losing players to bigger clubs, again, when you actually understand context, these things start to make more sense.

Sure but the posters point was about consistency in champs league. Ajax under ten Haag haven't been consistent in that competition.

 

[romufc]

Walker had won YPOTY, been part of TOTS, Eriksen was Spurs POTS winner, Dembele and Vertonghen were regulars of a pretty decent Belgian side, and both were in the peak years.

Rose, while 24, hadn't done a lot, and Kane was getting started - so I can give you those two.

Poch is a good manager, but let's not go overboard in praising him for things that he didn't do

I love how

Ajax in the CL are always massive underdogs, given finances and squad quality. They perform as favourites because of coaching. What Ten Hag has shown is the versatility to adapt to whatever transition in playing staff he has. He has been there for 4.5 seasons, had a constant turnover in players, and yet has always adapted their tactics to still be a dominant team that plays great football and scores a stupid amount of goals. In the CL despite their limitations in squad quality, they still have good performances and play good football, but obviously more inconsistency in result there. In 18/19 when he had his best group of players, they made the CL semi finals, and Spurs had that dramatic turnaround to come back. Some of that collapse was probably on Ten Hag. A lot on the players. They were all young, new, relatively inexperienced so that definitely played a part in the mental panic that led to the collapse after dominating the tie for 3/4 of it.

What Ten Hag has shown, is his teams consistently play great football, and consistently perform. Sometimes they don't have the luck, sometimes they don't have the quality to see games out or get the winner in the CL, but they still put in performances as a collective that far surpass the group of players they have. And, most importantly, he's shown the ability to adapt their tactics to whatever group he has. Lose De Jong, De Ligt, Dolberg all in the same summer, still show a really high level of performance despite completely changing styles. Lose Ziyech, Van de Beek, Dest the next summer, proceed to dominate in the league again despite changing and adapting tactics again. Always a new key player. Always a new player to focus around. Still play great attacking football. Both season perform solidly in the CL but be unlucky to drop to the Europa League because of a tough group and some bad luck. He's always shown adaptability and the knowledge to know how to change something when required to keep being successful while still playing good football. That's as important as anything, and precisely what Pochettino has failed to show.

Its interesting how when Ten Hag can't get out the CL groups because they have a very tough group in Lille, Valencia, Chelsea, Lille who got 1 point and last season with liverpool, Atalanta and Mijhiland. Fine they couldnt hack the CL, how far did they get in the EL?

Adapting tactics means you win, not just compete.

Its funny how the players are to blame but when it comes to Poch, he is to blame not the players?

Anyway, honestly speaking how many 90 minute league games do you watch per season for Ajax?

 

[balaks]

Yes they had 1 year of 0 signings (crazy of course), but you can't blame the entire decline on that? Spending €120m the year before and €150m the year after should have helped cover that year where a lot of it was stadium related i think? Pochettino was also faced with making the step up at that point, and he couldn't do it. There comes a point for every team that is at 3rd/4th place level where they either make the step up, or they drop. Happened with Ole and United this past summer, happened with Pochettino, happened with Klopp with Liverpool (except he actually made the step up). Pochettino didn't show the ability to make a change to get the squad up a level. And when you look at player quality - can anyone really say Pochettino overachieved with the squad he had? He had arguably as good a squad as anyone during 15/16 and 16/17. After that of course City took over in that regard, but it's not like Pochettino punched above his weight and lost out the title to just better players on paper.

I can and I will - we were the only team in the entire football league not to sign a single player for a full year - this added to the fact the squad at the time was ageing and clearly needed a refresh while all our rivals strengthened resulted in us going backwards until very recently as a club.

 

[JPRouve]

Sure but the posters point was about consistency in champs league. Ajax under ten Haag haven't been consistent in that competition.

Which is to be expected when they lose key players every summer. If they were consistent in the CL, ten Hag would most likely be the best manager in the world.

 

[RedC]

Sure but the posters point was about consistency in champs league. Ajax under ten Haag haven't been consistent in that competition.

Consistency to what degree? Losing 2/3 key players twice in 4 years and having to rebuild is never going to allow you to get out of the group stages every year if you're someone like Ajax. The 'top' teams in the world don't all consistently get out of the group stages every single year, in the years since he became Ajax manager us, Dortmund, Barcelona, and Inter have all failed to get out of the group stages. You can't compete on all fronts every single year while losing key players and being from one of the smaller leagues.

 

[ti vu]

Which is to be expected when they lose key players every summer. If they were consistent in the CL, ten Hag would most likely be the best manager in the world.

And some critics here failed to realize Ajax had not been able to make CL KO round for over a decade until ETH did. Twice in 4 years in this era is very impressive under the circumstances.

 

[bosnian_red]

So would you say Benfica and Valencia are better than Ajax? Benfica have played 9 quarter finals ties, lost all 9. Yet, I am been told Ajax have a better coach but cant get past them. Valencia who barely qualify for the CL every year finish above them in the groups, yet I am told Ajax have a better coach.

CL groups is not all 4 big clubs btw, you get 1 big club and 2 if you get unlucky. So he hasn;t rebuilt teams if he cant get out the CL.

Because the better team always gets through in the CL or wins the tie in the CL?

In the 19/20 CL group stage, Ajax had the best goal difference, and missed out on top spot by 1 point. They lost on the last game to Valencia 1-0 after beating them away 3-0. They lost to Chelsea 1-0 after drawing the away leg 4-4. Its the sort of fine margins that can literally happen to anyone, just like it happened to Sir Alex a few times.

Actually going through their past few years, they have a bit of a trend going here of being quite unlucky and ultimately dropping out by the narrowest of margins at home.

• 18/19 - Group stage just behind Bayern ahead of Benfica/AEK (2 draws vs Bayern), beat holders Real Madrid and Juventus, dramatic late defeat at home to Spurs in the semi final
• 19/20 - Lost 1-0 at home to Valencia on the last group stage game after controlling the game. Beat Lille and Valencia 3-0, beat Lille 2-0, drew to Chelsea 4-4 and then had two 1-0 defeats at home to Chelsea and Valencia to miss out on top spot by 1 point.
• 20/21 - group with Liverpool and Atalanta, had two 1-0 losses to Liverpool, lost on final day to Atalanta 1-0 by a late goal, again at home
• 21/22 - 6 wins from 6, 20 goals and 5 conceded from a group with Dortmund, Sporting and Besiktas. Lost to Benfica at home 1-0 again after controlling the game

Its not entirely surprising i guess. Ajax with their squads is always the big underdog, they get their best players poached every summer and replace them with random young players. Naturally underdogs will do better away, but the truth is that they go toe to toe with better teams all the time and have just narrowly missed out multiple years in a row. They punch above their weight consistently, put up good games against vastly superior teams while still playing good football. When they had their strongest team (which was still a team of kids), they almost went all the way. Without them, they still play great football and do well, just don't reach the same level. That to me is what shows he is a manager capable of hitting the peak we need. He can play successful and great football with whatever he has, but obviously just gets over those unlucky bumps with better players.

Lets not forget we are talking Ajax, and the level they have reached under him. The last time they made it past the group stage before him was 2005/06, then 02/03, then 96/96. And he tuned them into CL semi finalists, narrow finishing 3rd in the group's twice, and then having a perfect group stage in a very tough group. That's a huge achievement.

 

[LilyWhiteSpur]

Yeah it was. The poster said he inherited a Redknapp team that was playing well and on the up.

That's partly true but it was Redknapp's team minus Modric and mostly without Bale. Quite a difference for any club but especially one like Spurs.

i never said he inherited Redknapps team as AVB and Sherwood was in the middle . What I am saying is the team that he played the best football with, was mostly the team that was already in place when he arrived.

Again I loved Poch, and would love to see him back at some point. But he was not the sole reason we are where we are, he is a good coach but does have quite a few things that pissed a lot of fans off.

 

[bosnian_red]

I love how


Its interesting how when Ten Hag can't get out the CL groups because they have a very tough group in Lille, Valencia, Chelsea, Lille who got 1 point and last season with liverpool, Atalanta and Mijhiland. Fine they couldnt hack the CL, how far did they get in the EL?

Adapting tactics means you win, not just compete.

Its funny how the players are to blame but when it comes to Poch, he is to blame not the players?

Anyway, honestly speaking how many 90 minute league games do you watch per season for Ajax?

I don't watch their league games honestly speaking. Just looking at the numbers and they are ridiculous. But every year I watch them in the CL, and yeah, again, they play excellent football, punch above their weight and are more unlucky than anything.

Europa League performance after dropping out, yeah that's a fair criticism. Can't say for sure if they just didn't pay much attention to it or treated it like United did in 11/12.

Adapting tactics successful did mean they win. They won their league every year. They won their cup in 2/3 years and made the semi final the other year. This year they are 4 points in the lead in the league and in the final of the cup. They have had domestic dominance since he's taken over. You may be tempted to say "it's Ajax and the Dutch league", but they hadn't won the league in the previous 4 seasons, and hadn't won the cup since 09/10 (8 seasons without a win). They lose all their best players every year and they still put up stupid goal scoring numbers in all competitions every year.

With their CL performances, as I've said. They hadn't qualified past the group stage since 2005/06, then 02/03, then 96/97. He wasn't in charge of a big, rich club loaded with superstars who was expected to qualify.

With regards to "who is to blame", well, it always varies and the reality is always shared. Maybe Ten Hag could/should be more pragmatic in some clutch moments in the CL. The record the past 4 years would suggest so. But it's impossible to ignore that in the first place, he is dealing with a much lower quality group of players than the majority he is up against. Its also impossible to ignore the actual performances, or just a simple stat check goes a long way too. Looking at how they still go toe to toe against European giants, how they still have good results against European giants, but maybe just don't have enough quality to ultimately get over the line.

When it comes to Pochettino... I don't see a manager there who was able to adapt regardless of the group he had. He had a good group, kept them together for a few years, but was unable to improve them enough to win anything. Pochettino like ten hag did feck all in the Europa League. Pochettino's 5 years in charge had them exit at the r32 stage of the Europa League, r16 stage of Europa League, knocked out of CL group and then r16 Europa League, exit at the r16 stage of the Champions League and then finish as CL runners up before he was sacked in 19/20. So there European performances aren't actually different at all, except well one was in charge of Tottenham, the other Ajax, world's apart financially.

Outside of Europe, Pochettino never changed any tactics. He came in with 1 idea. It coincided with a very strong team clicking together. They had a few decent league seasons and did nothing in Europe, but ultimately didn't win anything domestically either (or get particularly close). And then because he failed to ever adapt or implement any changes, they dropped down a level and he couldn't lift it back up again. He goes to PSG with the same idea. Doesn't really do anything of note. Doesn't matter the player quality. Doesn't matter what signings were made. It was the same idea/tactic and they couldn't adapt to a different group of players, or find a way to actually step up to be truly competitive.

 

[romufc]

I don't watch their league games honestly speaking. Just looking at the numbers and they are ridiculous. But every year I watch them in the CL, and yeah, again, they play excellent football, punch above their weight and are more unlucky than anything.

Europa League performance after dropping out, yeah that's a fair criticism. Can't say for sure if they just didn't pay much attention to it or treated it like United did in 11/12.

Adapting tactics successful did mean they win. They won their league every year. They won their cup in 2/3 years and made the semi final the other year. This year they are 4 points in the lead in the league and in the final of the cup. They have had domestic dominance since he's taken over. You may be tempted to say "it's Ajax and the Dutch league", but they hadn't won the league in the previous 4 seasons, and hadn't won the cup since 09/10 (8 seasons without a win). They lose all their best players every year and they still put up stupid goal scoring numbers in all competitions every year.

With their CL performances, as I've said. They hadn't qualified past the group stage since 2005/06, then 02/03, then 96/97. He wasn't in charge of a big, rich club loaded with superstars who was expected to qualify.

With regards to "who is to blame", well, it always varies and the reality is always shared. Maybe Ten Hag could/should be more pragmatic in some clutch moments in the CL. The record the past 4 years would suggest so. But it's impossible to ignore that in the first place, he is dealing with a much lower quality group of players than the majority he is up against. Its also impossible to ignore the actual performances, or just a simple stat check goes a long way too. Looking at how they still go toe to toe against European giants, how they still have good results against European giants, but maybe just don't have enough quality to ultimately get over the line.

When it comes to Pochettino... I don't see a manager there who was able to adapt regardless of the group he had. He had a good group, kept them together for a few years, but was unable to improve them enough to win anything. Pochettino like ten hag did feck all in the Europa League. Pochettino's 5 years in charge had them exit at the r32 stage of the Europa League, r16 stage of Europa League, knocked out of CL group and then r16 Europa League, exit at the r16 stage of the Champions League and then finish as CL runners up before he was sacked in 19/20. So there European performances aren't actually different at all, except well one was in charge of Tottenham, the other Ajax, world's apart financially.

Outside of Europe, Pochettino never changed any tactics. He came in with 1 idea. It coincided with a very strong team clicking together. They had a few decent league seasons and did nothing in Europe, but ultimately didn't win anything domestically either (or get particularly close). And then because he failed to ever adapt or implement any changes, they dropped down a level and he couldn't lift it back up again. He goes to PSG with the same idea. Doesn't really do anything of note. Doesn't matter the player quality. Doesn't matter what signings were made. It was the same idea/tactic and they couldn't adapt to a different group of players, or find a way to actually step up to be truly competitive.

I dont want to come across as someone who doesn't rate Ten Hag, I do think he is a good manager and the work he has done in the Dutch League has been brilliant. He has got them scoring loads of goals and this season, the defensive record is brilliant. Even to the point where they won all their Group CL games, which is no small feat.

I just dont think there is that much between the two managers, both have equal strong and weak points, its a matter of what you prefer.

The reason I would favour ETH over Poch, is like you say, they play good football, but I dont watch them enough to tell you if they play this football every week. I was listening to a podcast of a Ajax fan saying, he doesn't have a plan B.

The other reason I don't think Poch will work as well is because the players will do exactly what the PSG players have done and not bother, with ETH I have hope that he will stick to his principles and if a player does not buy into it, out he goes.

I can see Poch persisting with Rashford, but I do not see ETH having the patience. I fear we will see a very Ole like team with Poch and if we are tearing it apart, why not change the style we play to a more possession, press, goal scoring style.

Having said that, Poch would probably get us defending better and I have to accept with ETH we may get games where we concede 3/4 goals because of the way he likes to press. Its something that will happen, saw it with Pep in his first season until he made tactical changes.

 

[Marwood]

Consistency to what degree? Losing 2/3 key players twice in 4 years and having to rebuild is never going to allow you to get out of the group stages every year if you're someone like Ajax. The 'top' teams in the world don't all consistently get out of the group stages every single year, in the years since he became Ajax manager us, Dortmund, Barcelona, and Inter have all failed to get out of the group stages. You can't compete on all fronts every single year while losing key players and being from one of the smaller leagues.

Well it was yourself who said they're consistent in champs league. So what do you mean by consistent?

 

[Chairman Steve]

If it is Pochettino who will be manager then for his sake, he better hit the ground running.

The majority of the fanbase did not want him. I’m personally an advocate of ETH and I think that us going for Poch over ETH is giving shades of like us settling for LVG when we could have had Klopp, or the appointment of Moyes.

This management structure have been admirers for YEARS now. We’ve all seen the photos of him and Ferguson walking out a restaurant and all the press briefing saying we like him… so if he flops, it really reflects bad on them. It’s not like Poch has only been considered these past few months

The Premier League proven card is the main reason why he’s the best candidate. I’m not seeing trophy winner, able to create new teams, good eye for players from all these pundits… It’s always ‘well he’s managed in the Premier League before’, which I think is a red flag itself when that’s the main reason. That will be used against him if he starts out bad.

I don’t think he’s a bad manager but he’s such an underwhelming choice when you look at his PSG stint. It just seems very risk averse to get the guy who once said ‘Top 4 is more important than cups’ and ‘Trophies only build egos’

 

[Marwood]

i never said he inherited Redknapps team as AVB and Sherwood was in the middle . What I am saying is the team that he played the best football with, was mostly the team that was already in place when he arrived.

Again I loved Poch, and would love to see him back at some point. But he was not the sole reason we are where we are, he is a good coach but does have quite a few things that pissed a lot of fans off.

I mean you did say "Redknapp had us on the up prior to his arrival and the vast majority of the players were already there."

So it reads like you're saying he pretty much inherited that team. My only point is that it was that team minus possibly its two best players.

If Klopp left this summer you'd say the new guy should have great success because of the team left to him.

But if Salah and Mané also left you'd have to take that into consideration wouldn't you?

 

[bosnian_red]

Well it was yourself who said they're consistent in champs league. So what do you mean by consistent?

Consistency in way of playing and level of execution despite changing players involved and losing key players. Them reaching the CL semi finals, finishing 3rd twice and losing in the r16 is all more or less just variance of end results during a period where players kept leaving and being replaced by randoms but performance levels were maintained.
For example, 19/20 when they lost in the group stage, they were up 4-1 away at Chelsea and then at 4-2 had a bad luck moment where the ref sent off 2 players for 2nd yellows AND gave a questionable pen, in the same play, with 25 minutes to go, right after a foul probably should have gone the other way before it all kicked off. Things like that turn a win into a draw with 2 players banned for the next game. Variance. They were still a team that was able to go toe to toe with Chelsea and outplay them despite losing De Ligt and De Jong a few months earlier. Its the ability to show flexibility in tactics with different players and levels of players, while maintaining a high level of performance and remaining true to your playing identity that is vital. Having full domestic dominance during your time is a big thing too. Those 2 things are what Sir Alex always had. No matter who came or left, there would be tactical adjustments but we would still play roughly the same way, and maintained domestic dominance and remained a top team throughout his time here.

Managers have to show they can lose players or go through transitions and still keep up a high level. Pochettino hasn't shown he can. Which means the only "good" moments that people keep banging on about are 100% tied to Harry Kane emerging as a world class striker and Spurs' best collection of players.

 

[pratyush_utd]

Why is PSG firing him after 1 and half season. He is going to deliver the title and got them to semi final last season. There was a lot of changes this year in first team for PSG.

 

[Skills]

Why is PSG firing him after 1 and half season. He is going to deliver the title and got them to semi final last season. There was a lot of changes this year in first team for PSG.

Ambition?

 

[Marwood]

Consistency in way of playing and level of execution despite changing players involved and losing key players. Them reaching the CL semi finals, finishing 3rd twice and losing in the r16 is all more or less just variance of end results during a period where players kept leaving and being replaced by randoms but performance levels were maintained.
For example, 19/20 when they lost in the group stage, they were up 4-1 away at Chelsea and then at 4-2 had a bad luck moment where the ref sent off 2 players for 2nd yellows AND gave a questionable pen, in the same play, with 25 minutes to go, right after a foul probably should have gone the other way before it all kicked off. Things like that turn a win into a draw with 2 players banned for the next game. Variance. They were still a team that was able to go toe to toe with Chelsea and outplay them despite losing De Ligt and De Jong a few months earlier. Its the ability to show flexibility in tactics with different players and levels of players, while maintaining a high level of performance and remaining true to your playing identity that is vital. Having full domestic dominance during your time is a big thing too. Those 2 things are what Sir Alex always had. No matter who came or left, there would be tactical adjustments but we would still play roughly the same way, and maintained domestic dominance and remained a top team throughout his time here.

Managers have to show they can lose players or go through transitions and still keep up a high level. Pochettino hasn't shown he can. Which means the only "good" moments that people keep banging on about are 100% tied to Harry Kane emerging as a world class striker and Spurs' best collection of players.

But the results aren't consistent are they?

A semi, a last 16 and not qualifying from the group twice. They are in fact quite random outcomes. The opposite of consistent.

Not that I'm saying it should be better. Totally take the point about players leaving etc.

I'm just in agreeance with the poster. There are justifiable explanations but his results in the champions league aren't consistent.

No matter how many try to redifine what the word consistent means.