Religion, what's the point?

Deery said:
Anyway even if there wasn’t a divine being, isn’t the base concept of religion a good one, giving people a sense of community and sense of good in the world?
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Yes, all that is good, but it also gives people of sense of bad in the world, while they at the same time claim the right to define what that is.

My grandmother, e.g. was a fundamentalistic Christian, and while she had so much empathy in her heart, that she wanted all football matches to end in a draw (I´m not kidding, and she loved watching football on telly) - so no one had to suffer from losing - she had no empathy with Palestinian kids being killed when watching the tv coverage of one the Gaza wars some years back. "That´s what you get messing with God's people." Those where her words.
 
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In all the traditions, what passes for "religion" is mostly just the superficial trappings that have developed around the original authentic experiences of just a few people, or even just one person, with most of the adherents of any religion concerned having little or no understanding of that original authentic experience.

To put it another way, there is an inner core to each religion which only a few have accessed, surrounded by a massive outer core. Those who have connected with the inner core in some way - or to at least some extent - share perceptions in common with each other across all the religions and are not bothered about the outer trappings.

But the masses of the outer core, fixated on the superficial trappings of their own particular religion, often fight against those from other religions over the validity of their competing trappings.

So, for the most part, there is not much point in discussing organised "religion" as such, since most of it is a confused, confusing and inauthentic mess.
 
Withnail said:
All very well in principle and it sounds nice but that's not really the reality as I see it. If the bible was a tiny book of the things Jesus said, minus the acceptance of slavery as a normal part of life, I'd probably look on it more favourably but you only need to look at the history of the church in Ireland in the last 100 years to undermine any claims to it being a force for good.
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I'm no expert on the history of abuses in the Church of Ireland over the last 100 years but again, we're looking at people who weren't following Christ's teaching - which you said you looked on that teaching favourably on - or people who deliberately chose to twist those teachings. Obviously we see that the heads of that church in the Vatican and probably every layer between Ireland and Vatican choosing to try and bury it, cover it up or try to buy their way out of its discovery just as most likely any similarly dysfunctional and corrupt organisation has done, The Metropolitan Police, LAPD for examples and on and on.

What you are talking about is the harm caused by a tiny tiny fraction of people who entered the church either for the purposes of being able to abuse trusting people or joiners too stupid to know any better believing that their role was to punish what they saw as sin, on Earth which wasn't their place, and the institution doing completely the wrong thing. Personally I doubt very much the Catholic Church will ever eradicate many of those layers of corruption and greed but at a personal level we know that a big fat corrupt institution is not the Christian faith, not at all and never intended to be.

All throughout history greedy corrupt pedophiles and child abusers have spotted an institution ripe for being subverted and I'm not just talking about the Catholic Church. I could be talking about any organisation that has demanded, earned, and built up trust with a centre remote from the abuse. That's not the foot soldiers though, nor the people who have joined to do good. If you think it is then be honest with yourself at least.
 
Hugh Jass said:
Aliens, now theres something that might just be possible.
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Aliens would be good news. Their existence would prove to us that development of technology with the potential of total destruction, not necessarily leads to total destruction.
 
Deery said:
He’s funny that it’s even mentioned in the bible that the first thing Jesus will do on his return is throw the charlatans out of the chapel, it’s nearly like we had many of the same social problems even a thousand years ago as we do today.
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When is Jesus going to return?
Straight question.
 
As usual in these discussions I'm getting posts left right and centre from different folk. Makes it difficult to have a decent conversation as I'm having to reply to a different set of responses/questions.

It's the last few days of Ramadhan and I am pressed for time. So I will bow out for now.

@Wibble thanks for the discussion and not getting aggressive and being insulting. I will carry on with you, if you wish, at a later date.

@Dve same with yourself. If you wish also. The war notion is certainly interesting, albeit I think misinformed and wrong. But again more later.

Timing I can't say for certain. Just learned my cousin's 14 year old has been put on life support. He had leukaemia and had a transplant that hasn't worked. My auntie, said cousins mum, on her way out too so tough times ahead for the family.
 
Buster15 said:
When is Jesus going to return?
Straight question.
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According to (resurrected) him, he was supposed to come back before all of his original followers had died.

Mark 9:1 - "there are some of you who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power"

Mark 13:24-30 - "But in those days, following that distress, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken. At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens. Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that it is near, right at the door. Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."

Matthew 10:23 - " When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes."
 
Carolina Red said:
According to (resurrected) him, he was supposed to come back before all of his original followers had died.

Mark 9:1 - "there are some of you who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power"

Mark 13:24-30 - "But in those days, following that distress, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken. At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens. Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that it is near, right at the door. Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."

Matthew 10:23 - " When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes."
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Mark was written about 70CE, Matthew 85CE. I think he's a bit late, or maybe the gospels have been misunderstood. :annoyed:
 
Carolina Red said:
Hey, I’m not in the group that thinks “The Gospels” are legit. Just relaying what they say.
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Me neither mate, I'm just trying to be helpful. ;)
 
It truly boggles the mind that anyone can believe "in god" its a human construct. We aren't designed nor evolved to understand everything. It's beyond are comprehensive mind, we might never get to that point. Why does there have to be a "big bang" its are thought process, why does there need to be a "god" again its are thought process. We just aren't equipped to answer these questions. And we never will. I think there is a limit to what we understand, just like a fish will never survive on land.
 
BEST No7 said:
It truly boggles the mind that anyone can believe "in god" its a human construct. We aren't designed nor evolved to understand everything. It's beyond are comprehensive mind, we might never get to that point. Why does there have to be a "big bang" its are thought process, why does there need to be a "god" again its are thought process. We just aren't equipped to answer these questions. And we never will. I think there is a limit to what we understand, just like a fish will never survive on land.
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I read this in the voice of a pirate.
 
Carolina Red said:
Wait what? I thought you and Penna were churchgoing types
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I've never believed that the Bible let alone the Gospels are a 100% reliable record of Christ's teachings or acts but it hasn't stopped me believing in Christ or God.
 
oates said:
I've never believed that the Bible let alone the Gospels are a 100% reliable record of Christ's teachings or acts but it hasn't stopped me believing in Christ or God.
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Do you believe in providence?

I think I believe in that more than actual gospels..
 
oates said:
:lol: I think it's fascinating the assumptions atheists make, doesn't mean I need to understand them.
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Well… at the same time, there’s no book of atheism claiming to be the authoritative word of God.

If you don’t believe the gospels are reliable, then how do you believe any of it?
 
oates said:
I've never believed that the Bible let alone the Gospels are a 100% reliable record of Christ's teachings or acts but it hasn't stopped me believing in Christ or God.
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That’s really interesting. Not a lot of the Christians I’ve met adhere to that point of view.

What’s your view on the Gospel of Barnabas? And what do you make of Nestorian Christianity vs Pauline Christianity? I’ve always thought the influence of Paul/Saul on Christianity a little strange considering he never met Jesus (to my knowledge) and was in a period after Jesus.
 
Deery said:
Do you believe in providence?

I think I believe in that more than actual gospels..
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Yes I believe in that also.

I find it a bit strange that atheists think it's clever to catch Christians out with texts that have been copied, translated, re-written to make them say what the monks, bishops and popes wanted them to say over 2,000 odd years. I don't have to have read 99.99% of the Bible. I only need to have faith in a few simple sentences and the things I see around me.

We all come to Christ from different directions, we all use the one simple path. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. Love one another.
 
oates said:
Yes I believe in that also.

I find it a bit strange that atheists think it's clever to catch Christians out with texts that have been copied, translated, re-written to make them say what the monks, bishops and popes wanted them to say over 2,000 odd years. I don't have to have read 99.99% of the Bible. I only need to have faith in a few simple sentences and the things I see around me.

We all come to Christ from different directions, we all use the one simple path. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. Love one another.
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Yeah that’s more or less exactly how I feel also and that’s actually how we taught to interpret the gospels as young as children, it’s been written by many different authors over many different years but the fundamental concept is to be good as you say.

I find atheists to be a little like vegans.
 
The Corinthian said:
That’s really interesting. Not a lot of the Christians I’ve met adhere to that point of view.

What’s your view on the Gospel of Barnabas? And what do you make of Nestorian Christianity vs Pauline Christianity? I’ve always thought the influence of Paul/Saul on Christianity a little strange considering he never met Jesus (to my knowledge) and was in a period after Jesus.
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I'm sorry, I haven't read it, with my doubts it would be surprising.

I don't or haven't put a lot of store in Paul, he teaches about women being subservient. If we believe the things that Jesus has said and done we'd take him to treating women equally. I just choose not to fill my head with his letters to such and such.
 
Deery said:
Yeah that’s more or less exactly how I feel also and that’s actually how we taught to interpret the gospels as young as children, it’s been written by many different authors over many different years but the fundamental concept is to be good as you say.

I find atheists to be a little like vegans.
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I think most people are decent and would treat all others as they treat themselves and/or their loved ones. It's not always easy even as an atheist to do that I'm sure. I've even seen some say that if there ends up being a Heaven then surely they'll deserve to enter.
 
Carolina Red said:
According to Acts 9, that’s who spoke to him on the road to Damascus.
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Yes I meant they never met each other physically. Aware Saul/Paul had a vision on the road to Damascus which prompted his conversion, but this was a good few years after the crucifixion. To my knowledge they never met during Jesus’ lifetime.
 
oates said:
I think most people are decent and would treat all others as they treat themselves and/or their loved ones. It's not always easy even as an atheist to do that I'm sure. I've even seen some say that if there ends up being a Heaven then surely they'll deserve to enter.
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I’m not really sure about keeping them out or letting them in, but I’d expect them to be at the back of the queue.
 
Deery said:
I’m not really sure about keeping them out or letting them in, but I’d expect them to be at the back of the queue.
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:lol: I'll let 'em all in so long as my dog is there too.

They get in eventually I'm sure.
 
oates said:
I'm sorry, I haven't read it, with my doubts it would be surprising.

I don't or haven't put a lot of store in Paul, he teaches about women being subservient. If we believe the things that Jesus has said and done we'd take him to treating women equally. I just choose not to fill my head with his letters to such and such.
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Thanks - I’d be interested in hearing your views (not necessarily reading it all the way through, but the general gist of it). Also would be interested to hear what you consider ‘authentic’ Christianity vis a vis the Nestorian church vs Pauline.

Edit: hearing your views here or via PM I mean!
 
The Corinthian said:
Thanks - I’d be interested in hearing your views (not necessarily reading it all the way through, but the general gist of it). Also would be interested to hear what you consider ‘authentic’ Christianity vis a vis the Nestorian church vs Pauline.

Edit: hearing your views here or via PM I mean!
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I'm not a theologian or a historian but I'm willing to bet that Constantine did a lot of horse trading and copy pasting with the odd bit of photoshop to get the Roman Empire to accept Christianity. That's basically the nutshell. We're not asked to do anything complicated, it doesn't mean it is easy but mostly it makes sense to me.
 
Roane said:
As usual in these discussions I'm getting posts left right and centre from different folk. Makes it difficult to have a decent conversation as I'm having to reply to a different set of responses/questions.

It's the last few days of Ramadhan and I am pressed for time. So I will bow out for now.

@Wibble thanks for the discussion and not getting aggressive and being insulting. I will carry on with you, if you wish, at a later date.

@Dve same with yourself. If you wish also. The war notion is certainly interesting, albeit I think misinformed and wrong. But again more later.

Timing I can't say for certain. Just learned my cousin's 14 year old has been put on life support. He had leukaemia and had a transplant that hasn't worked. My auntie, said cousins mum, on her way out too so tough times ahead for the family.
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No worries mate, and sorry to hear about the illness in your family. I hope they will all be fine.
 
oates said:
I've never believed that the Bible let alone the Gospels are a 100% reliable record of Christ's teachings or acts but it hasn't stopped me believing in Christ or God.
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You'd be lucky if 10 percent of It were true.


Imagine if 100 years into the future 70 people took trumps tweets as record of what happened in the world, spun it so it matched thier agenda, translated it into swahili, then into mandarin then summarised it. Then 4 of the 70 people were randomly chosen by a publisher to add to their collection of other random summarisations of the 21st century, and then boom that's your reliable record of 2013 to 2020.
 
oates said:
he teaches about women being subservient
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To be fair to Paul, that epistle was very likely written under a pseudonym by a forger. It contradicts with other Pauline statements about women in other undisputed epistles.

(1st and 2nd Timothy and Titus are all disputed)
 
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