Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

Zehner said:
No, but nobody is talking about excusing it. Only that there are levels to it. To me it makes a difference if you kill civilians because you just feel like it or if a superior tells you to while you know very well that you'll be killed for refusing to follow orders. It puts you into a kind of "them or me" situation.
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No it puts you on the exact same level as the person giving the order.

There's no grey area on this subject, anyone who follows orders (they know to be wrong) and commits atrocities is complicit with those atrocities.

alexthelion said:
It's the good, old "just following orders" excuse.
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I genuinely hope not but it's brushing dangerously close to it.
 
I’ve heard that Putin is having/has had an operation? Any chance the surgeon can do us all a favour ?
 
alexthelion said:
Well said.

We can have sympathy for the Orcs once the war is finished. Now, why should we feel any sympathy at all to the invaders?
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Fecking orcs those soldiers are. And it has got nothing to do with being a Ukranian or not. The cold truth is that an absolute majority of Russian citizens support this war. They also side with Put-ler regarding his opinion about Ukranians as a nation. The sense of arrogance and superiority of majority of Russians towards other nations who were part of USSR is a well-known fact. Hopefully, the war ends asap, Vlad rests in pieces whereas Russian federation is finally governed by a true free-thinker full of empathy.
 
Garethw said:
I’ve heard that Putin is having/has had an operation? Any chance the surgeon can do us all a favour ?
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Most likely what you've heard is a baseless rumour.
 
English translation:
Signs point to #EU oil embargo against #Russia: senior diplomat confirms to me @zdfheute in the evening that also the remaining member states (like Hungary, Slovakia, Austria) had withdrawn their veto after intensive talks

But: still open is the question of transition periods: the embargo is therefore likely to be decided in the next few days - but will not be implemented until the next few months. Exactly when is still under discussion.
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US to target Russian oligarchs with provisions in $33bn Ukraine aid bill
United States Senate Democratic leader Chuck Schumer has said he will add provisions to the $33bn Ukraine aid package that will allow US authorities to seize Russian oligarchs’ assets and send money derived from them to Ukraine.


“Ukraine needs all the help it can get and, at the same time, we need all the assets we can put together to give Ukraine the aid it needs,” Schumer said.
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VorZakone said:
Valery Gerasimov is the Chief of General Staff which means he's the highest ranking officer of the Russian military. He's the guy that sits next to the Minister of Defence (Sergei Shoigu) in those long-table meetings with Vlad.
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Thanks for that info, I hadn’t registered the part about the wounded guy. I’ve no sympathy at all but it must be fairly awful being a Russian officer right now, a position you’d expect to be highly protected. At the very least it makes it incredibly difficult for the senior executors of this war to continue meeting both with each other and with their subordinates. And in a war that has been badly planned and badly executed that’s pretty much the last thing they need. Hope it continues.
 
stefan92 said:
And when the war is over ways need to be found how to rebuild Russian society in a different way, like it was done with the German society.
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Germany was completely occupied, so German society could be completely turned around. How is that possible in Russia? Germany was completely at zero ( Stunde null ) and shattered, but Russia is very far away from that. To think that you can fundamentally change Russian society from the outside ... is, let's say, ambitious.
 
Another fire in Russia ...

The BBC reports:

"Fire at a Russian defence ministry site - Belgorod governor

A fire broke out at a Russian defence ministry site close to the Ukrainian border, according to the governor of the Belgorod region.

One person sustained minor injuries, Vyacheslav Gladkov said on Telegram.

The governor of another Russian region near the Ukrainian border, Kursk, said part of a freight railway bridge had collapsed, with no casualties.

"It was sabotage, a criminal case has been opened. The authorities in charge of the investigation will resolve the issue," said governor Roman Starovoyt on Telegram, without naming Ukrainian forces.

Russia has frequently accused Ukraine of attacks on its territory near to the border."
 
ColoRed said:
Germany was completely occupied, so German society could be completely turned around. How is that possible in Russia? Germany was completely at zero ( Stunde null ) and shattered, but Russia is very far away from that. To think that you can fundamentally change Russian society from the outside ... is, let's say, ambitious.
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You are right, it's ambitious, and I do not know how this could really be achieved.

I think the most "elegant" way to get rid of Russian imperialism would be getting rid of the Russian Federation and breaking it up into smaller states, but I am neither sure if whether that's realistic nor whether it would be possible in a way to solve more problems than this scenario would create.
 
stefan92 said:
You are right, it's ambitious, and I do not know how this could really be achieved.

I think the most "elegant" way to get rid of Russian imperialism would be getting rid of the Russian Federation and breaking it up into smaller states, but I am neither sure if whether that's realistic nor whether it would be possible in a way to solve more problems than this scenario would create.
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Putin and his lapdogs must be removed from power and west friendly leaders must take their place. If that ever happens it's important that the west takes the opportunity to build bridges of cooperation and help the country move towards a democracy. But as long as Putins, Kim Jung Uns and Idi Amins run the country nothing will ever change.
 
stefan92 said:
I think the most "elegant" way to get rid of Russian imperialism would be getting rid of the Russian Federation and breaking it up into smaller states
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That sounds like a very bloody nightmare.
 
Denis79 said:
Putin and his lapdogs must be removed from power and west friendly leaders must take their place. If that ever happens it's important that the west takes the opportunity to build bridges of cooperation and help the country move towards a democracy. But as long as Putins, Kim Jung Uns and Idi Amins run the country nothing will ever change.
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Surely its more than just that style of leader? Surely Russia needs to undergo a massive change in national Psyche as there are bound to be countless others who think in the same way Putin and his cronies do.
 
GlastonSpur said:
Another fire in Russia ...

The BBC reports:

"Fire at a Russian defence ministry site - Belgorod governor

A fire broke out at a Russian defence ministry site close to the Ukrainian border, according to the governor of the Belgorod region.

One person sustained minor injuries, Vyacheslav Gladkov said on Telegram.

The governor of another Russian region near the Ukrainian border, Kursk, said part of a freight railway bridge had collapsed, with no casualties.

"It was sabotage, a criminal case has been opened. The authorities in charge of the investigation will resolve the issue," said governor Roman Starovoyt on Telegram, without naming Ukrainian forces.

Russia has frequently accused Ukraine of attacks on its territory near to the border."
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At a guess (and I realise you’re a random Spurs fan), do you think the saboteurs are people who didn’t live in Russia pre-invasion, and have now infiltrated, or are they Ukrainians who have been living in Russia for a longer period?
 
calodo2003 said:
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It's strange seeing this level of absurd propaganda from the Russians around a war where we get updates from the warzone relatively quickly.
 
NicolaSacco said:
At a guess (and I realise you’re a random Spurs fan), do you think the saboteurs are people who didn’t live in Russia pre-invasion, and have now infiltrated, or are they Ukrainians who have been living in Russia for a longer period?
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I'd guess it's more the latter. Ukraine has had years to prepare for the possibility of a further Russian invasion, so it's likely IMO that they embedded many agents inside Russia during this time.
 
Soooo...just found out Margarita Simonyan can speak English. It feels really weird hearing a propaganda nutter like her talk in English. I don't really know how to explain it.

It's like you get the feeling or realization that they actually do see the world like we do, as in they're not living in a totally different reality. They can understand us damn well without translations.
 
Stack said:
Surely its more than just that style of leader? Surely Russia needs to undergo a massive change in national Psyche as there are bound to be countless others who think in the same way Putin and his cronies do.
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It would take decades to transform Russian society, even if a liberal, pro-Western government took power.

The first step would be to instil in people a sense of being citizens - individuals with the inalienable right to speak, to act and to access information - rather than (as now) largely just passive inhabitants of a territory who are used to being dictated to.

Without that, the establishment of the essential pillars of democracy - a free media, independent judiciary, fair elections etc - will not take sufficient root to thrive.
 
stevoc said:
No it puts you on the exact same level as the person giving the order.

There's no grey area on this subject, anyone who follows orders (they know to be wrong) and commits atrocities is complicit with those atrocities.



I genuinely hope not but it's brushing dangerously close to it.
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ok then
Imagine for whatever reason you are in the British (or wherever you are from) army. It’s a war and a superior officer says to shoot an unarmed guy.
If you don’t he and the rest of the troop will shoot you.
It’s very clear if you refuse that they will shoot the unarmed guy and then kill you anyway.
What do you do?
I’ll give you a clue - not many people choose the honourable option when the shit hits the fan.
I suspect you would be no different so you can stop the moralistic holier than thou shit, which I strongly suspect (like 99.9% of us) you know feck all about
 
The Purley King said:
ok then
Imagine for whatever reason you are in the British (or wherever you are from) army. It’s a war and a superior officer says to shoot an unarmed guy.
If you don’t he and the rest of the troop will shoot you.
It’s very clear if you refuse that they will shoot the unarmed guy and then kill you anyway.
What do you do?
I’ll give you a clue - not many people choose the honourable option when the shit hits the fan.
I suspect you would be no different so you can stop the moralistic holier than thou shit, which I strongly suspect (like 99.9% of us) you know feck all about
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Not even the Nazis killed their own soldiers for refusing to commit war crimes. I think there might be one recorded case. In most cases they were simply transferred, with no negative repercussions beyond that. This includes concentration camp guards.

Basically, you're making up a scenario which fits your argument.
 
Stack said:
Surely its more than just that style of leader? Surely Russia needs to undergo a massive change in national Psyche as there are bound to be countless others who think in the same way Putin and his cronies do.
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I think most Russians just want decent jobs, security and peace like the rest of the world. It's the poor and uneducated who believe in Putin's lies and I think they will turn on him as soon as someone offers something better.
 
calodo2003 said:
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He neglects to tell his viewers that his tidal wave wouldn't wipe out the UK's ability to incinerate every major Russian city (and plenty of smaller ones too) in response, using just one Trident submarine.
 
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