They should’ve waited till this season, anyways their board seems to have settled with him
Mikel Arteta | Lego Pep watch
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They should’ve waited till this season, anyways their board seems to have settled with him
Ah great news.
But you could make arguments for any manager for their losses. The fact that arteta just like Ole has those periods of down results should be worrying for you guys. Also, if you are going to be very particular about how things could have been different against Southampton or Brighton, well then applying the same logic, you were massively lucky against United as well. Missed penalty, weird VAR calls. These things happen.
My take on arteta is he has to improve a lot. I still don't see a top manager in him but someone who is really fortunate to have ultimate authority at a club like Arsenal. He would have been sacked thrice by now if he were managing any other ambitious club.
You can't extrapolate PPG from a mid season start for a manager and compare them to a time where you have had a stable manager with players he wants, that understand his concepts, and have the fitness levels he requires. Conte with a full pre season and money to buy who he wanted would most likely wipe the floor with Arsenal(and us this season), and you would be outside the top 4 having had no European football, and Arteta's finishes would be 8th, 8th, 5th. Surely you would be asking questions at that point?
It's not about giving him no credit, it's about what you want from your team at the end of the day. If you're happy with Arsenal floating around the top 4 perennially, then enjoy Arteta's progression. If you want Arsenal to have a chance at winning the league, you really need to be bringing in one of the best managers in the world, you have the money to do so, If you'd brought in a better manager than Arteta after last season and given him 150m with no European football, who knows what state you could be in now, it's not like you're a broken bottom feeder that needs to rely on giving chances to former players. Many of us will have had the same opinion you have on Arteta for Ole, but it was just nonsense at the end of the day. It's not possible to do something like that and succeed in this league.
Can you? Like I said, I can't explain the United/Everton losses. But, I can explain the other two periods, which to be frank are largely down to us just not having a good enough squad.
We didn't really get luck vs United. The xG was slightly in our favour. The ONLY call which I think was lucky was the Cedric handball, but even then apparently the rules say that isn't a pen (not that I agree entirely). Every other call wasn't really luck. Bruno should have been sent off for example, nobody cares about that though.
Maybe he would have been sacked, but where has sacking managers got United/Spurs. Some short term success in prem finishes, but not a whole load of silverware and not any sustained progress. We are ambitious, if we weren't we wouldn't be spending money, and we would be selling Saka for £100m.
Brilliant news.
No.. why would I ffs.
You are seriously asking me if i'd be questioning Arteta finishing below a more experienced and better manager, with a much better squad (if you're saying he's signing his own players too)? Why on earth would I expect Arteta to finish above him with all those things in place? This is where people just have no logic. It's bizzare. I would hope that we can compete, but I wouldn't be calling for Artetas head, that's ridiculous.
No I can't just extrapolate PPG, but who knows what would have happened if he started the season in charge, so that's all ifs and buts.
Proof, if it was needed, at what a masterful job Arteta has done in lowering expectations.
It’s like somebody used the MiB mind wipe tool on a cohort of Arsenal fans. Or they’re just very young and don’t know anything about the history of the club. Firing Wenger for “only” consistently making top four apparently never happened. And when you compare the funds made available to Wenger vs Arteta…
You're misunderstanding, it's not about questioning why Arteta didn't finish above those teams, the question you should be asking is why Arteta is your manager.
He has done well enough this season to warrant a new contract, surely?
I'm all for laughing at Arsenal and Lego Pep, but you also have to admit that they are moving in the right direction. Players like Ødegaard, Saka, Smith-Rowe, Tierney, Martinelli, etc. are looking like quality players for the future, and they have gotten rid of a lot of the deadwood. There was no way they were going to end up above City, Liverpool or Chelsea this season, so I would say 4th is a really good achievement, if they can get it. Next season will be an entirely different challenge with European football, though.
I'm all for laughing at Arsenal and Lego Pep, but you also have to admit that they are moving in the right direction. Players like Ødegaard, Saka, Smith-Rowe, Tierney, Martinelli, etc. are looking like quality players for the future, and they have gotten rid of a lot of the deadwood. There was no way they were going to end up above City, Liverpool or Chelsea this season, so I would say 4th is a really good achievement, if they can get it. Next season will be an entirely different challenge with European football, though.
I think it's brilliant personally. I don't think they realise just how good they had it with Wenger, even with the benefit of hindsight they had with United losing their legendary manager a few years earlier.
Their competition for 4th was utterly abysmal and they still might not get it. They're just us under Solskjaer. Apart from Saka and Odegaard none of those are particularly outstanding talents. Tierney's 25 in June so he's hardly a young talent anymore.
They look great but wasn’t that long ago were saying the same about Rashford, Greenwood, Shaw and Martial. With high hopes for the likes of McT and AWB too. There’s a myth about all young players improving as they get older that United fans in particular should be aware of.
Again what is this logic?
I have realistic expectations. Why would any reasonable person, expect a team with a much worse squad (if you are saying Conte brings in his own players), and a worse and less experienced manager (I can admit Arteta isn't as good as Conte currently, to finish above that team? It's just not realistic. I can hope we do for sure, but I won't be expecting it.
The club have been very clear about the plan recently. Develop younger players, along with a younger manager, in the goal to reach longer term sustainable success. It's not guaranteed, but it's the plan. And so far, it is working, so no i'm not going to question it.
There are only two managers in the world who I expect would get this current Arsenal squad to finish above a fully forced Conte Spurs squad, Pep and Klopp, neither of which we can have. But for the people who are saying Arteta isn't good enough, who do you suggest we bring in? Conte was an option, but for the profile of squad we have I wouldn't say he's the right fit. ETH maybe, but there's a reason Ajax fans want him out so we'll see next year how he does. Doubt Zidane comes here. Rodgers is a no. Who?
Now next season i'm sure Conte will bring in his players, which will raise Spurs up a level. But, I am hoping we also can sign some players to help counter this, and I am hoping the likes of Martinelli can kick on and start being more consistent, but we will see what happens because that's not always guarenteed.
Anyway, i'm out of posts, so have a good day all
!
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Given that Arteta is on course to finish on around 70 points, who do you think we could have hired last season instead of Arteta who would have us in a better position? I'm genuinely curious because I can't think of an immediate choice off the top of my head.
I agree with you that Arteta probably isn't going to get us better than top 4, but I think the club are gambling that he improves as he gets more experience. He's still quite new as a manager himself
100%. They hounded out Emery as well who got to an EL final and finished 5th with 70 points in his one season there…which was deemed a failure.
Again, Arteta has done a masterful job in pulling the wool over Arsenal fan’s eyes.
Didn't Emery get you around the same amount of points and to a Europa League final?
Not all but when you take 5-6 young players who are regular first teamers, you’d expect at least a couple to develop and kick on. United have been atrocious in this department (like every other department ) over this past decade. I wouldn’t use us as the example to prove it’s a myth.
Wasn't Conte available? Obviously anyone I mention would be pure speculation(who knows if they would go to Arsenal, but you have the money to pay them a lot and to sign players, as demonstrated), but I'm pretty sure there would have been a more qualified and better manager than Arteta available, he had 2 8th place finishes to his name and a couple of years in management at that time.
I was thinking about Conte when I read that post but I don't think he would have gone to Arsenal. Allegri was available too.
Maybe so. Still, their points total will not matter if they end up fourth, while playing a lot of youngsters. If they get CL and use that opportunity to strengthen the squad significantly, I would be pretty pleased as an Arsenal-fan.
Sure, not all of them will make it, but currently they are doing well, and they are certainly making the right squad moves in my opinion, even if they probably overpaid for Ben White and Ramsdale last summer.
I don't think Arsenal will be winning the league or even challenging anytime soon, and if I were to guess, I would say they are definitely not getting top four next season no matter where they end up this year. Other teams will improve, and they have to cope with European football as well. Still, laughing at them extending Arteta's contract just seems weird when they are in position to get 4th, are playing some decent football and are making the right changes to their squad.
Points totals don’t matter apparently…
Connor wants to only compare this season to a hypothetical season of his imagination. He doesn’t want to compare this season to other seasons that have actually happened because it undermines his point.
Dunno if this is referring to our conversation, but the facts really do point to it making very little difference to where Arsenal finish in the league.
Conte joined 10 matches into the season. Arsenal were ahead of Spurs by two points. This suggests that Spurs start to the season wasn’t exactly a fatal blow to their prospects.
There have been 24 matches since and… Arsenal are ahead of Spurs by 2 points. Despite 72 points being up for grabs and Spurs spending heavily in Jan, the gap is exactly the same.
Spurs will have played 3/4 of the season under Conte with a whopping 2 points to make up. The circumstances of this hypothetical season where Spurs keep Arsenal out of the top four that you keep referencing… is incredibly similar to what has actually happened this season. We don’t have to make up scenarios, we can just look at reality.
Where teams end up in the league is primarily due to how they play over 38 games. I would have thought that would be the least controversial statement possible, but apparently not.
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He came in at the end of December in his first season, and the side were in the bottom half of the table after being in the hands of a good manager in Emery, and a caretaker stint by Ljungberg. Two 8th place finishes isn't a fair representation of what happened. In his first full season he finished 8th but didn't really spend, he was given a considerable amount of money this season and they have a decent chance of finishing top 4, a successful season.
Yeah, I'm sure Ajax fans hated winning the league every year and dominating teams like Juventus, Real Madrid, and Dortmund in the Champions League. Who can blame them?
Arsenal fans are strange people.
Yeah, let's ignore all the context of a new manager coming in mid season and trying to get a team to adapt to his playstyle and required fitness levels, and just pretend like it was a completely level playing field because you were close to each other on points, that makes loads of sense.
I'm not sure how many times I've to make this point, but I have never said Arteta has made no progress, I'm simply providing my opinion that there are caveats, and that I don't think he's the manager that will ultimately get Arsenal back to where I would hope their fans would want to be.
New contract the implosion next season is going to be glorious.
the implosion next season is going to be glorious.And how sure are you that ETH is?
I was just responding to the 8 8 thing, it gets bandied a lot in this thread and ignores the context of the situation. Same way that some posters bring up money spent and forget he's only really spent last summer.
And maybe, I dunno. He's a manager in his first job who's already made plenty of mistakes (and also some bold decisions that have paid off), and there'll be a lot of questions asked of him next season. European football, Conte in his first full season and a resurgent Manchester United.
He's done well so far though, and the Ole comparisons are kinda lazy and lack any real insight. Most people on here were convinced he'd be sacked by Christmas and the implosion was incoming and Arsenal would be midtable, and it keeps getting pushed back.
I said at the end of last year I thought they'd get top 4, but I'm going to hold back on my prediction for next season until after the summer transfers are done (for them and for United and Tottenham to have a better idea). Pogue makes a fair point about young talent and the inconsistencies when it comes to linear development, and Arsenal have a couple gaping holes and some poor understudies too. But just because the youth project at United didn't pan out doesn't mean anything when it comes to another side, the same way that not every talented youngster becomes a Rooney or Ronaldo.
I'm confident he was the right choice given the options available, it's not really comparable though, as we are talking about Arteta after 2 1/2 seasons in this case, not some brand new manager.
I am not to speak for Conor but what has ETH got to do with any of how arteta does. Eth may fail here at United but he has a proven pedigree at Ajax and has a clear style of football. Arteta doesn't have either.
Arteta has a cultural reset, they say. Only using young players, despite signing Willian for £220k a week, as one of his first signings.
And how long to you give him before he has to win a league or champions league since that's how you gauge success?
Well for one they will be in direct competition. I've said before, Conte will be a great example. We all agree Conte is a top class manager, right? He's at a club similar to Arsenal in terms of spending power, in terms of level of player he can attract, & in terms of current level of performance.
If he can pull Spurs away from Arsenal & challenging at he top of the league and Champions League then it's clear then that the top class manager has made a major difference.
If he doesn't, or somehow Arteta finishes ahead of him and competes on a par with him over he coming seasons, what do you say then? The conclusion can only be having a world class manager itself is not enough without having a shit load of money and a great structure to close the cap & overtake the current City & Liverpool teams.
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New managers often face challenges. At the same time, new Managers often experience an upturn in results simply by being a new voice in the dressing room.
I would agree that it wasn’t a level playing field, the consensus opinion was (and continues to be) that Arsenal have a weaker squad. We have a lack of experience running throughout our first team and our rookie Manager is overseen by a rookie Technical Director. These are all things in Spurs favour.
If Conte being Manager of Spurs for a hypothetical additional 10 games is the magic bullet that you’re portraying it as, why isn’t that reflected in the 24 games he’s had in actual reality? Especially as he was able to add to a squad that was already stronger than Arsenal’s?
How do you get a proven pedigree when people enter entrenched positions and continually refuse to acknowledge he's doing a good job this season and then as soon as he hits a patch you just know they'll pile in and say he was shocking all along.
He's doing alright. Young manager, young squad. I think they've played some good stuff but you're not going to get the same relentless consistent style as top sides. That's a feature of inconsistency and it will manifest as some mixed outputs.
I find the Arteta thing weird. There's nothing that interesting going on. It's a club that was flailing that have now committed to some kind of methodology in the market and with an inexperienced manager. They don't have the chops to go out and buy the world's top players so this is the path for them. What is to be expected really?
I agree that the two situations don't have anything to do with each other, and that ETH is far more experienced. Arteta not having a clear style of football is wrong though, and one of the reasons the "Ole = Arteta" analysis that we see keep seeing in this thread is so lazy. People can disagree about how much they like the approach or the strengths and weaknesses of it, but I can tell you to a player how Arsenal approach games, same way that I can for Chelsea or Brighton or any team with consistent gameplans and approaches. I couldn't do that with Ole, bar a basic counter attacking approach relying on star quality and individual moments.
Even comparing this season's Arsenal to last season's Arsenal, you can see a marked difference in how they approach games, both in terms of their off the ball work and what they do on it, even in terms of player 's positional play and the areas they funnel their attack through is very different.
I don't put much stock in terms like cultural reset, but I also don't really get your point. They signed him on a free and binned him off after one season when it didn't work out. He's targeted younger players and it's something that the club is obviously focusing on.
That was the summer before. Its almost as if clubs, I don't know, continually analyse & change strategy accordingly! Or can that only be done with a managerial change every 18 months or so?
It's not about winning things per se, but challenging for them. I wouldn't want to sack Ten Hag in 3 years time if we had competed for and narrowly missed out on the league, or gotten to a semi final or final of the CL and lost. If we had managed a few top 4s whilst being miles off the pace of the leaders, I probably would.
I think you are just being willfully ignorant to the most important part of the season for a new manager at this point, especially a manager like Conte with his fitness requirements. He has had no preseason with the players.
Not at all. Pre-seasons are incredibly important. But in the last few season alone we’ve seen what a new Manager bounce can do for United with Ole and Chelsea with Tuchel. In fact, even Arteta himself took over team mid-season in 11th and qualified for Europe through winning the FA Cup, beating City and Chelsea on the way.
The unfamiliarity with the players can be both a blessing and a curse so it pretty much cancels out.
More importantly, 24 games is both a huge amount of time to make up 2 points and a large enough sample size to see significantly improved performances. Neither have happened.
Anyway, I’m kind of done. The beauty of leagues is that you don’t have to have these kinds of discussions. If Arsenal qualify for the Champions League, it will be primarily because of how we performed across the season. And if we don’t, it will be for the same reason.
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