F1 2022 Season

SilentWitness said:
wow, a measured and sensible post in the F1 thread.:nono:
Click to expand...

What is measured about the post? It offers nothing except throwing shades on anyone doubting Hamilton this season as 'wanting him to fail'.

I don't want Hamilton to fail but he is nowhere near last season, cajoling his team to get better. There are legitimate reasons for this, one of the main reason being an impossible car to drive but many of us here hope he somehow turns in around. Would be boring to just have redbull win at a canter
 
fishfingers15 said:
What is measured about the post? It offers nothing except throwing shades on anyone doubting Hamilton this season as 'wanting him to fail'.

I don't want Hamilton to fail but he is nowhere near last season, cajoling his team to get better. There are legitimate reasons for this, one of the main reason being an impossible car to drive but many of us here hope he somehow turns in around. Would be boring to just have redbull win at a canter
Click to expand...

Because the post stated exactly how it is without-resorting to hyperbole in regards to Hamilton.
 
Balljy said:
The quotes from Mercedes over the weekend are interesting as they have moved from (at least publicly) they don't know what the issues are but are putting full resources into it, to they know it's a fast car but have to understand why it's so difficult to get performance reliably out of it. I suspect the slight optimism now comes from the performance in practice.

It also looks like, as suspected by a few in here that they knew that the upgrades wouldn't solve the issues, and a new floor is what they are waiting on for that.

Miami Grand Prix's remarkable buzz can't hide Mercedes' woe - BBC Sport
Click to expand...

Mercedes issue is they cant produce a new floor without being 100% sure of where the problem lies and how to resolve it. If they wasnt a cost cap they'd probably be trying quite a few floor configurations out i suspect. Under a cost cap they need to be really sure. New floors are cheap or quick to manufacture.

Mark Hughes on The Race website said on the weekend that Mercedes dont want to give up on the slim sidepod design because if they can get it to work, the car would dominate races. Thats what the simulations show. The amount of downforce that it could theoretically produce was in the order of numbers that Mercedes hadnt seen before in any other design.

Problem is under the rules as they are it might not be possible to make it happen. If and its a huge if, Mercedes did make it happen and the ontrack performance matched the simulations. Then RB and Ferrari would have to change their car design for next season. Which would be a nightmare for both teams.

I would love to know what adrian newey thinks of the Mercedes concept. After all he did his thesis on ground effect aerodynamics apparently. So if he thinks Mercedes wont get it to work then i'd trust his judgement (not that he has said that in public).
 
SilentWitness said:
Because the post stated exactly how it is without-resorting to hyperbole in regards to Hamilton.
Click to expand...

All of the posts by @pauldyson1uk in this thread haven't been resorting to hyperbole but he voiced what seemed to be genuine concerns.

What that post did was to present anyone who doubted Hamilton to be a doom sayer.
 
fishfingers15 said:
All of the posts by @pauldyson1uk in this thread haven't been resorting to hyperbole but he voiced what seemed to be genuine concerns.

What that post did was to present anyone who doubted Hamilton to be a doom sayer.
Click to expand...

which has what has been happening. There is barely any rational behaviour in the F1 thread. If people think tribalism in football is bad…
 
bob-handbag.gif


Is this about to turn into some handbag trading?? :drool:
 
fishfingers15 said:
All of the posts by @pauldyson1uk in this thread haven't been resorting to hyperbole but he voiced what seemed to be genuine concerns.

What that post did was to present anyone who doubted Hamilton to be a doom sayer.
Click to expand...
I dont do hyperbole.
I do have some concerns , must admit I got the pit wrong in Miami, I did think Lewis had a new set of softs to put on not having that set.
What concerns me is that Mercedes don't have a clue what is wrong, they clearly tried something in FP1 and 2 and that worked, qualifying was poor, the race was bout where I expected them.
 
dinostar77 said:
Mercedes issue is they cant produce a new floor without being 100% sure of where the problem lies and how to resolve it. If they wasnt a cost cap they'd probably be trying quite a few floor configurations out i suspect. Under a cost cap they need to be really sure. New floors are cheap or quick to manufacture.

Mark Hughes on The Race website said on the weekend that Mercedes dont want to give up on the slim sidepod design because if they can get it to work, the car would dominate races. Thats what the simulations show. The amount of downforce that it could theoretically produce was in the order of numbers that Mercedes hadnt seen before in any other design.

Problem is under the rules as they are it might not be possible to make it happen. If and its a huge if, Mercedes did make it happen and the ontrack performance matched the simulations. Then RB and Ferrari would have to change their car design for next season. Which would be a nightmare for both teams.

I would love to know what adrian newey thinks of the Mercedes concept. After all he did his thesis on ground effect aerodynamics apparently. So if he thinks Mercedes wont get it to work then i'd trust his judgement (not that he has said that in public).
Click to expand...

Your point about Newey is a very interesting one.
But of course we are highly unlikely to ever know.
Regarding the Mercedes W13, it strikes me that its performance potential is right on the edge of a very sharp razor blade.
And if you can get everything right, the rewards could be worth the risk.
But it is so 'peaky', it will fall off the edge incredibly easily.
 
Buster15 said:
Your point about Newey is a very interesting one.
But of course we are highly unlikely to ever know.
Regarding the Mercedes W13, it strikes me that its performance potential is right on the edge of a very sharp razor blade.
And if you can get everything right, the rewards could be worth the risk.
But it is so 'peaky', it will fall off the edge incredibly easily.
Click to expand...
It’s easy to say in competitive sport, and hard to actually action, but if Mercedes are convinced their car design gives a significant advantage, then despite all the panic and frustration by fans and the drivers alike, they should not be deviating course any time soon. The rules are around for some time, even if this season goes to the bin, if they figure out what the fix is then they’ll be set with a unique design that everyone will be playing catch up on. It could mean domination again.

Having said that what you said is also true. At some point they gotta cut their losses. But if the simulations show a big advantage, given where they are this season I’d keep going until I KNEW for sure that the potential either can’t be unlocked real world, or it’s next to impossible to get it set up to unlock it.
 
SilentWitness said:
alright fella’. :)
Click to expand...

Ok, I guess?

pauldyson1uk said:
I dont do hyperbole.
I do have some concerns , must admit I got the pit wrong in Miami, I did think Lewis had a new set of softs to put on not having that set.
What concerns me is that Mercedes don't have a clue what is wrong, they clearly tried something in FP1 and 2 and that worked, qualifying was poor, the race was bout where I expected them.
Click to expand...

Which is fair. I can understand rabid fan bases and bias within all of us. It's a bit rich to act fair and balanced when you clearly have a bias. Think I should ignore these instead of getting caught up in silly arguments.
 
rpitroda said:
It’s easy to say in competitive sport, and hard to actually action, but if Mercedes are convinced their car design gives a significant advantage, then despite all the panic and frustration by fans and the drivers alike, they should not be deviating course any time soon. The rules are around for some time, even if this season goes to the bin, if they figure out what the fix is then they’ll be set with a unique design that everyone will be playing catch up on. It could mean domination again.

Having said that what you said is also true. At some point they gotta cut their losses. But if the simulations show a big advantage, given where they are this season I’d keep going until I KNEW for sure that the potential either can’t be unlocked real world, or it’s next to impossible to get it set up to unlock it.
Click to expand...

Completely agree with your second point.
If they are convinced that their design has the performance they believe, then only hard work and the application of their technologies are going to unlock it.
Toto Wolff comment that it is physics and not mystics is a really good one.
 
rpitroda said:
It’s easy to say in competitive sport, and hard to actually action, but if Mercedes are convinced their car design gives a significant advantage, then despite all the panic and frustration by fans and the drivers alike, they should not be deviating course any time soon. The rules are around for some time, even if this season goes to the bin, if they figure out what the fix is then they’ll be set with a unique design that everyone will be playing catch up on. It could mean domination again.

Having said that what you said is also true. At some point they gotta cut their losses. But if the simulations show a big advantage, given where they are this season I’d keep going until I KNEW for sure that the potential either can’t be unlocked real world, or it’s next to impossible to get it set up to unlock it.
Click to expand...

But when do they do that ? Do they do it mid season, spending vast amounts of budget or do the write of this season, do what they can and concentrate on next season.
Like you if it was me I would be wanting to know 100% that the design needs changing.
If they get the car right, from what I have read the Mercedes will be a very good car.
 
dinostar77 said:
Mercedes issue is they cant produce a new floor without being 100% sure of where the problem lies and how to resolve it. If they wasnt a cost cap they'd probably be trying quite a few floor configurations out i suspect. Under a cost cap they need to be really sure. New floors are cheap or quick to manufacture.

Mark Hughes on The Race website said on the weekend that Mercedes dont want to give up on the slim sidepod design because if they can get it to work, the car would dominate races. Thats what the simulations show. The amount of downforce that it could theoretically produce was in the order of numbers that Mercedes hadnt seen before in any other design.

Problem is under the rules as they are it might not be possible to make it happen. If and its a huge if, Mercedes did make it happen and the ontrack performance matched the simulations. Then RB and Ferrari would have to change their car design for next season. Which would be a nightmare for both teams.

I would love to know what adrian newey thinks of the Mercedes concept. After all he did his thesis on ground effect aerodynamics apparently. So if he thinks Mercedes wont get it to work then i'd trust his judgement (not that he has said that in public).
Click to expand...
My general position is that if Newey believed in it, he'd have done it. That is the short of it because the man is the best chassis developer in F1 right now.

Radical and f1 dont often mix (I think the last radical change was the DD back in 2009). That is the problem that Mercedes now have.
 
mariachi-19 said:
My general position is that if Newey believed in it, he'd have done it. That is the short of it because the man is the best chassis developer in F1 right now.

Radical and f1 dont often mix (I think the last radical change was the DD back in 2009). That is the problem that Mercedes now have.
Click to expand...

Just because you're brilliant doesn't mean you're the only person who ever has good ideas...
 
rpitroda said:
Having said that what you said is also true. At some point they gotta cut their losses. But if the simulations show a big advantage, given where they are this season I’d keep going until I KNEW for sure that the potential either can’t be unlocked real world, or it’s next to impossible to get it set up to unlock it.
Click to expand...

I think you only have to look at Russell's lap time in P2 at Miami that tells them when they have the car in the operating window it can pull out a decent lap time. They won't be deviating away from this, regulations don't change for a while so they have time to unlock the potential from this. We're only going to understand if that car has any potential when we get a new floor and they can run the car at an optimal ride height in comparison to the other front runners.
 
F-Red said:
I think you only have to look at Russell's lap time in P2 at Miami that tells them when they have the car in the operating window it can pull out a decent lap time. They won't be deviating away from this, regulations don't change for a while so they have time to unlock the potential from this. We're only going to understand if that car has any potential when we get a new floor and they can run the car at an optimal ride height in comparison to the other front runners.
Click to expand...

I don't know how much we can take from that though, it's FP2 and no one is really going for it at that point. For example Sainz was 2sec faster in Q3 than he was in FP2, Perez and Leclerc both over a second faster.

I think Russel felt better in the car than he has done before, but the lap time itself doesn't really say all that much when everyone is driving at 8-9/10.
 
These f1 tech talks are superb. This one is turbos and mgu-h.

I didnt know that ferrari are still the only engine supplier on the grid not using split turbo design. Mercedes paved the way for this idea (explained in the video), honda tried to make it work from 2017 onwards and failed for a very long time (mclaren years) and Renault have implemented it this season.

 
ChaddyP said:
I have no idea why the Mercedes... I mean Lewis fans are up in arms about Hamilton not being told to pit. What on earth would have been the point. From a team perspective you have 20 laps left in a tyre where your less experienced team mate was still getting good times. For Mercedes it doesn't matter if George finishes 5th or Lewis. They got maximum points today and then some, having the 4th fastest car. Pitting Lewis achivies nothing for the team and only puts them at risk incase they have a poor pit stop. And it also puts both drivers on fresh tyres fighting themselves.

They shouldn't have even asked Lewis what he wanted. The most obvious thing to do was to stay out.
Click to expand...
If Bottas wouldn't make mistake they would be 6 and 7 fighting themselves but having both on fresh tyres would gave them mich better chance that both drivers go past Bottas. In the end it worked out fine but it's definitely better to have both cars on fresh tyres instead of having driver on used set holding up driver on fresh set.
 
Newey doing his thesis on ground effect 40 years ago and didn't think of the Merc design means nothing really. Merc also have a tonne of brilliant engineers and as someone said above, people other than Newey can have good ideas, and indeed not every idea Newey has will be good.

For me this still comes down to whether or not you believe in the Mercedes team. Its true a lot of their early dominance was down to a PU that was light years ahead, but in more recent years they've also produced chasses and aero packages as good as anyone else. They also have the ability to properly innovate (e.g. DAS). I believe they have a concept that could be brilliant, its proving tricker to dial in that they expect from simulations and the cost cap is hampering their ability to just throw money at the problem. I don't think they'll deviate and I do think they'll solve it.
 
A few reputable places reporting that Merc are bringing an anti-porpoising floor and an improved PU to spain which makes sense as Spain was their target for the upgrades. Looks like we will finally see whether this design is worth continuing with or not.
 
flameinthesun said:
A few reputable places reporting that Merc are bringing an anti-porpoising floor and an improved PU to spain which makes sense as Spain was their target for the upgrades. Looks like we will finally see whether this design is worth continuing with or not.
Click to expand...
They need to get it sorted with the next few race to still be in the title hunt, its still not too late.
Spain then Monaco which might be a good track this year for them.
 
A lot of rumours about development budget caps from various teams and how they are likely to be hit soon. Don't know about you lot but part of the thrill of F1 is the constant development, if we end up with just 2-3 package updates a season it takes something away from the sport for me.
 
Leg-End said:
A lot of rumours about development budget caps from various teams and how they are likely to be hit soon. Don't know about you lot but part of the thrill of F1 is the constant development, if we end up with just 2-3 package updates a season it takes something away from the sport for me.
Click to expand...
Agreed, I think we need something to try to encourage new teams and attempt to make things competative, but it means a team's season can be ruined by one dodgy summer of development.
 
Leg-End said:
A lot of rumours about development budget caps from various teams and how they are likely to be hit soon. Don't know about you lot but part of the thrill of F1 is the constant development, if we end up with just 2-3 package updates a season it takes something away from the sport for me.
Click to expand...
Yeh, apparently according to binotto RedBull have already spent 75% of their budget and are 0.2 seconds quicker than ferrari at present.

Ferrari set to introduce major upgrades for spain, their first of the season. Also some reports (unsubstantiated) that Mercedes have spent alot of the development budget that should have taken them to mid season break already and after spainish gp, upgrades will be few and far between.
 
flameinthesun said:
A few reputable places reporting that Merc are bringing an anti-porpoising floor and an improved PU to spain which makes sense as Spain was their target for the upgrades. Looks like we will finally see whether this design is worth continuing with or not.
Click to expand...
Sources? Interested in reading the reports.
 
The Firestarter said:
Isnt the PU frozen ? I thought they cant change that.
Click to expand...

They're allowed to make battery power changes for now and reliability adjustments. If they weren't running at full power due to reliability concerns which the new PU fixes, it's possible that the newer engines will perform better. Everything has to go through the FIA though to be signed off.
 
Leg-End said:
A lot of rumours about development budget caps from various teams and how they are likely to be hit soon. Don't know about you lot but part of the thrill of F1 is the constant development, if we end up with just 2-3 package updates a season it takes something away from the sport for me.
Click to expand...
While that's true it's the only way for others to compete. Think of FFP in football.

The likes of Ferrari/Mercedes are the City/PSG of football. Other teams like Williams/Mclaren just can't compete financially.

If F1 wants more teams to join like Andretti in the future, the budget cap is necessary to make a fair footing for all.

The smartest will still end up coming out on top which is the main thing, it just means they won't be able to throw endless resources at it.

Mercedes would have probably got their errors sorted after 2 races with an endless budget, now they're having to work a bit differently.
 
Adam-Utd said:
While that's true it's the only way for others to compete. Think of FFP in football.

The likes of Ferrari/Mercedes are the City/PSG of football. Other teams like Williams/Mclaren just can't compete financially.

If F1 wants more teams to join like Andretti in the future, the budget cap is necessary to make a fair footing for all.

The smartest will still end up coming out on top which is the main thing, it just means they won't be able to throw endless resources at it.

Mercedes would have probably got their errors sorted after 2 races with an endless budget, now they're having to work a bit differently.
Click to expand...
While all of those points are valid it still changes F1's nature from being at the cutting edge of current technology to ... I'm not sure yet. If it weren't for Ferrari we would be one step away from Lola building all the chassis in my opinion.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.