Religion, what's the point?

Relevated said:
The old testament and all bibles are corrupt in the sense that they've been altered and changed. Religion has taught us that murder, theft, stealing the rights of others, gambling, and alcohol are extremely harmful to individuals and societies.
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No. Human societies create religions which include these basic and obvious moralities.

Otherwise you are suggesting the morality comes from religion.

And of course religious texts get corrupted. They also reflect the subjective opinion of the authors and subsequent editors. This is partly why they mightn't be the best way to guide yourself morally and why most religious people just ignore huge chunks of the texts as they form their morality.
 
Relevated said:
Can I ask a question to non religious people?

Don't you find it problematic that your moral compass changes with the wind? Something acceptable today won't be acceptable in 50 years, and something acceptable 50 years ago won't be accepted today.

This isn't the case within the organisation of a religion where the moral standard doesn't change (sticking to Islam as it hasn't really changed much in contrast to christianity)
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You've pretty much made a great case about never bothering with religion. Having a rigid moral compass and not being able to evolve with times is seriously problematic.
 
Relevated said:
Can I ask a question to non religious people?

Don't you find it problematic that your moral compass changes with the wind? Something acceptable today won't be acceptable in 50 years, and something acceptable 50 years ago won't be accepted today.

This isn't the case within the organisation of a religion where the moral standard doesn't change (sticking to Islam as it hasn't really changed much in contrast to christianity)
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Changing/adjusting/evolving is important for us as a species. Laws change, societies change and especially our knowledge about everything around us changes with time and it's important we adjust. We all know today that homosexuality isn't a choice so we adjust, we know that animals feel pain like we do so we adjust, we know that there are women out there that can swim so we don't burn them at the stake if they do.
 
Fingeredmouse said:
Otherwise you are suggesting the morality comes from religion.
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He is. For these people the human society was a set of brain-dead morons who were killing each other on sight until some god came down and wrote some books telling us "guys don't kill others ... Until they refuse to call your God as their god in which case go for it" and then everyone was like wow thanks for letting us know.
 
‘Do unto others what you’d want done to you’ didn’t originate with religion, it’s scientifically proven that it’s how we have behaviorally developed to thrive as a species. That’s something unchanging for you.
 
Moby said:
He is. For these people the human society was a set of brain-dead morons who were killing each other on sight until some god came down and wrote some books telling us "guys don't kill others ... Until they refuse to call your God as their god in which case go for it" and then everyone was like wow thanks for letting us know.
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You're incorrect there. The purpose of being created, by God, is to worship the very same single God without attaching any partner or child to God. We have been provided guidance and the best way to interact with one another to ensure the continuation of a society without corruption, lies, alcoholism, murder, theft and injustice.

This is not a matter that had existed 1400 years ago. This is a matter which had existed prior to the first ever human being on this planet and the message has always been the same - To worship a single God who has provided us with a completely perfect and flawless way of living.

If you're religious or non religious, your way of living and your morals and your code of conduct will always be based on something. You will always either be a slave to a flawed society and your own desires, or you can choose to take your moral and societal conduct from a matter that has already been decreed.

You shouldn't paint every religious person with your flawed brush of Christianity.
 
Roane said:
I would disagree. I would argue it, religion, was an afterthought.
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They’re doing it in their god’s name. The contortions here are astounding.

I’ll bite. What do you think their motivations are?

You actually think being anti-LGBTQ isn’t religion-based?
 
Relevated said:
The purpose of being created, by God, is to worship the very same single God without attaching any partner or child to God
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Tell that to the millions of people who have been killed because their god wasnt someone else's. Once that is done we'll come back to finding my morality in the source thats the biggest reason for suffering on this planet.
 
Moby said:
Tell that to the millions of people who have been killed because their god wasnt someone else's. Once that is done we'll come back to finding my morality in the source thats the biggest reason for suffering on this planet.
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Okay I will try to do that now.
 
calodo2003 said:
Religious voters, especially evangelicals, were certain Trump would push their agenda forward especially through judicial appointments.
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It was the other way around for me. White (and I'm not being racist here but it's important to the point) evangelicals had a pattern to their voting habits. Trump specifically understood this and geared his campaign to get that vote
 
Roane said:
It was the other way around for me. White (and I'm not being racist here but it's important to the point) evangelicals had a pattern to their voting habits. Trump specifically understood this and geared his campaign to get that vote
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Of course he did, any savvy politician would (in this case, Trump’s handlers), but the religious didn’t balk at his obvious transgressions that were antithetical to their beliefs. They held their nose a bit, but they let the prospect of a more christian nation supersede any issues they had.
 
calodo2003 said:
Of course he did, any savvy politician would (in this case, Trump’s handlers), but the religious didn’t balk at his obvious regressions that were antithetical to their beliefs. They held their nose a bit, but they let the prospect of a more christian nation supersede any issues they had.
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My question to you was is this because of religion?

The white evangelicals pretty much always vite republican. Similar to UK and old/er people voting Tory. It's because these parties always contest elections with "perks" for these groups. Simply to win the vote.

If it had been black one legged lesbian piano players that gets you the vote then that would be the target audience "bought" with promises.
 
Roane said:
My question to you was is this because of religion?

The white evangelicals pretty much always vite republican. Similar to UK and old/er people voting Tory. It's because these parties always contest elections with "perks" for these groups. Simply to win the vote.

If it had been black one legged lesbian piano players that gets you the vote then that would be the target audience "bought" with promises.
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Of course it is because of religion. Religion literally informs evangelical political choices. With Trump, they decided not to worry about the means, they focused on the end. Trump should have disqualified himself because of his transgressions, but the evangelicals were playing the long game. And they have started to see returns on their investment & that investment was wholly religious in nature.

It’s absolutely laughable that you think religion plays no part in this. It’s impossible to divorce religion from this.
 
calodo2003 said:
They’re doing it in their god’s name. The contortions here are astounding.

I’ll bite. What do you think their motivations are?

You actually think being anti-LGBTQ isn’t religion-based?
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It's not about biting, it's a discussion where we have a different view.

When 7/7 happened I was working in the community safety field. Apart from the media lead it's the mozlems, any reports that were done at the time looked deeper into the motivations and looked into possible reasons that has lead to this.

Everything was looked into from origins of suicide attacks, from Tamil Tigers to kamikaze pilots. Socio economic factors and religious factors/beliefs etc. None of the perps fitted any of the profiles. None were overly political, or from poor backgrounds or overly politically involved.

As for the LGBTQ question history tells us that it's not always religious factors. Even as far back as the Spartans people are aware of their engagement in homosexuality but many may not be aware that a Spartan king also outlawed it. Not based on religion
 
calodo2003 said:
Of course it is because of religion. Religion literally informs evangelical political choices. With Trump, they decided not to worry about the means, they focused on the end. Trump should have disqualified himself because of his transgressions, but the evangelicals were playing the long game. And they have started to see returns on their investment & that investment was wholly religious in nature.

It’s absolutely laughable that you think religion plays no part in this. It’s impossible to divorce religion from this.
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They have traditionally voted for republicans anyway. As it suits their interests. I'm not sure why you are failing to see this.

As an example in the UK it's no different to Asians traditionally voting Labour. Religion wasn't the issue rules on immigration were. Labour "targeting" Muslims was more about the ethnicity than their religion. They may have been the largest of the South Asian groups but Sikhs and Hindus also votes for them because the " needs" were the same. So bringing over a spouse was more important a factor than belief.
 
Roane said:
It's not about biting, it's a discussion where we have a different view.

When 7/7 happened I was working in the community safety field. Apart from the media lead it's the mozlems, any reports that were done at the time looked deeper into the motivations and looked into possible reasons that has lead to this.

Everything was looked into from origins of suicide attacks, from Tamil Tigers to kamikaze pilots. Socio economic factors and religious factors/beliefs etc. None of the perps fitted any of the profiles. None were overly political, or from poor backgrounds or overly politically involved.

As for the LGBTQ question history tells us that it's not always religious factors. Even as far back as the Spartans people are aware of their engagement in homosexuality but many may not be aware that a Spartan king also outlawed it. Not based on religion
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You’re honestly saying that religion isn’t the driver of an US evangelical’s life?

You’re honestly saying that anti-LGBTQ issues in this country aren’t driven by religion?

You’re honestly saying that 7/7 wasn’t religion-based?
 
Roane said:
They have traditionally voted for republicans anyway. As it suits their interests. I'm not sure why you are failing to see this.

As an example in the UK it's no different to Asians traditionally voting Labour. Religion wasn't the issue rules on immigration were. Labour "targeting" Muslims was more about the ethnicity than their religion. They may have been the largest of the South Asian groups but Sikhs and Hindus also votes for them because the " needs" were the same. So bringing over a spouse was more important a factor than belief.
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And why have they traditionally voted for republicans? Religion plays a large, large part in that. It cannot be removed from the equation.
 
Relevated said:
You're incorrect there. The purpose of being created, by God, is to worship the very same single God without attaching any partner or child to God. We have been provided guidance and the best way to interact with one another to ensure the continuation of a society without corruption, lies, alcoholism, murder, theft and injustice.

This is not a matter that had existed 1400 years ago. This is a matter which had existed prior to the first ever human being on this planet and the message has always been the same - To worship a single God who has provided us with a completely perfect and flawless way of living.

If you're religious or non religious, your way of living and your morals and your code of conduct will always be based on something. You will always either be a slave to a flawed society and your own desires, or you can choose to take your moral and societal conduct from a matter that has already been decreed.

You shouldn't paint every religious person with your flawed brush of Christianity.
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So, to be clear, morality was preordained by God prior to the existence of humanity who, without the word of god are flawed.

The logical conclusion if which is if we all followed the word of your particular god society would be less flawed (perfect perhaps)?

Meaning therefore a non adherent to your particular faith is therefore less moral.

Absolutely staggering arrogance.
 
Fingeredmouse said:
So, to be clear, morality was preordained by God prior to the existence of humanity who, without the word of god are flowed.

The logical conclusion if which is if we all followed the word of your particular god society would be less flawed (perfect perhaps)?

Meaning therefore a non adherent to your particular faith is therefore less moral.

Absolutely staggering arrogance.
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The narcissism is astounding.
 
Fingeredmouse said:
So, to be clear, morality was preordained by God prior to the existence of humanity who, without the word of god are flowed.

The logical conclusion if which is if we all followed the word of your particular god society would be less flawed (perfect perhaps)?

Absolutely staggering arrogance.
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No, thats incorrect, society would Still not be perfect. Our purpose is defined and we are provided with information on how best to live our life, but we are free to do as we please.
 
Relevated said:
No, thats incorrect, society would Still not be perfect. Our purpose is defined and we are provided with information on how best to live our life, but we are free to do as we please.
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You believe we are provided information by your particular God which is the last word on morality.

Can you see why that is problematic?
 
Fingeredmouse said:
You believe we are provided information by your particular God which is the last word on morality.

Can you see why that is problematic?
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I can understand why that would cause conflict, tension, and why it would be considered problematic to a lot of people, yes of course.
 
Roane said:
They have traditionally voted for republicans anyway. As it suits their interests. I'm not sure why you are failing to see this.

As an example in the UK it's no different to Asians traditionally voting Labour. Religion wasn't the issue rules on immigration were. Labour "targeting" Muslims was more about the ethnicity than their religion. They may have been the largest of the South Asian groups but Sikhs and Hindus also votes for them because the " needs" were the same. So bringing over a spouse was more important a factor than belief.
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You can't compare UK and US when it comes to religion. UK is far more secular and even religious people are rather moderate in their beliefs. In comparison some of the US states are fecking batshit crazy and extremists to the core. Politics and religion overlaps far more when people are so blinded by religion that they decide who rules their country based on what their pastors and priests tell them, who are in cohorts with the politicians.
 
Relevated said:
On your part perhaps? Because it's like you're trying to shove words into my mouth. I didnt claim anything that you atheists are saying I did.
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You don’t see the narcissism involved in subsuming morals & trying to peddle them to us unwashed heretics who can’t find a moral compass otherwise?

Like Fingered said, the arrogance is galling.
 
calodo2003 said:
You’re honestly saying that religion isn’t the driver of an US evangelical’s life?

honestly saying that anti-LGBTQ issues in this country aren’t driven by religion?

You’re honestly saying that 7/7 wasn’t religion-based?
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In terms of voting? No. It is about self interest however.

If religion was such a high factor for people then in the UK religious people wouldn't have voted for a party legalising same sex marriage etc. The fact that it didn't matter shows self interests of a different kind play a larger role.

As for 7/7 its lazy/too easy to say it was based on religion. Especially when you consider the people involved.
 
Relevated said:
The purpose of being created, by God, is to worship the very same single God without attaching any partner or child to God.
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So, you're saying this God is a vain, attention-deficit entity?

Relevated said:
Can I ask a question to non religious people?

Don't you find it problematic that your moral compass changes with the wind?
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:lol: The feck?
 
Moby said:
You can't compare UK and US when it comes to religion. UK is far more secular and even religious people are rather moderate in their beliefs. In comparison some of the US states are fecking batshit crazy and extremists to the core. Politics and religion overlaps far more when people are so blinded by religion that they decide who rules their country based on what their pastors and priests tell them, who are in cohorts with the politicians.
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That's fair. And I guess the point is that politicians do play to a "crowd" if it gets them the vote.
 
Relevated said:
I can understand why that would cause conflict, tension, and why it would be considered problematic to a lot of people, yes of course.
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Good. It's pretty infuriating to have your morals questioned because you don't adhere to a particular faith.

To clarify on your original question. My morality is developed by the complex ecosystem of human society. Aspects can change but the core principles of what is and isn't good are innate in us all. I do not consider adhering to a faith, or not, having any bearing on a person's morality whatsoever.

Also, I of course, find the idea of some sort of divine absolute morality implausible and, in fact, not desirable.
 
calodo2003 said:
You don’t see the narcissism involved in subsuming morals & trying to peddle them to us unwashed heretics who can’t find a moral compass otherwise?

Like Fingered said, the arrogance is galling.
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I'm not peddling them onto you, or anybody else. You can believe in whatever you want to. You should work on your self esteem perhaps, and you shouldn't insult yourself so much.
 
calodo2003 said:
And why have they traditionally voted for republicans? Religion plays a large, large part in that. It cannot be removed from the equation.
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It can't be removed completely I agree. It's a fact that they are evangelical.

However it can be broken down further when looking at voting patterns. So mainly white, mainly older and lower socio economically and from the south. Of religion is a factor then so is geography and age and education.
 
Relevated said:
Can I ask a question to non religious people?

Don't you find it problematic that your moral compass changes with the wind? Something acceptable today won't be acceptable in 50 years, and something acceptable 50 years ago won't be accepted today.

This isn't the case within the organisation of a religion where the moral standard doesn't change (sticking to Islam as it hasn't really changed much in contrast to christianity)
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If your god would come to you and tell you the morally correct thing to do right now is to murder everyone in your family, would you agree?
 
Roane said:
You think this was because of religion?
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Oh yes.

calodo2003 said:
Of course he did, any savvy politician would (in this case, Trump’s handlers), but the religious didn’t balk at his obvious transgressions that were antithetical to their beliefs. They held their nose a bit, but they let the prospect of a more christian nation supersede any issues they had.
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“The Lord works in mysterious ways…”

“The Lord used bad people in the Bible to accomplish his will…”

“God’s got this. He put Trump in power for a reason…”

Roane said:
The white evangelicals pretty much always vite republican.
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You’ve never studied the history of that voting trend, have you?
 
Carolina Red said:
Oh yes.


“The Lord works in mysterious ways…”

“The Lord used bad people in the Bible to accomplish his will…”

“God’s got this. He put Trump in power for a reason…”


You’ve never studied the history of that voting trend, have you?
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Enlighten me
 
Relevated said:
Good one man you got me
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He did, though. God asked Abraham to sacrifice his son, and the moral of the story wasn't that Abraham didn't do it because he knew right from wrong. The moral of the story was that he was going to do it, because God defines what is good and right. Literally.

Why won't you answer his question, though?
 
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