That doesn't remotely describe Europe and the West's response to this war. There's an unprecedented level of external support and internal increase in spending. Now you might say it's not enough, but it's very clearly not just business as usual.
As for Reagan, it's not clear that he had anything to do with the fall of the USSR. There's certainly no historical consensus.
But the issue is that you keep arguing from a NATO/European point of view. The arguments you are providing don't live in the minds of the people you are questioning. Now, if NATO started a huge propaganda campaign in Africa and made sure that every person everywhere is fully aware of the argument you're providing, then sure, you could argue that they're not weighing the arguments correctly by preferring Russia. But that's not happening, and so people will base opinions on the general information and stereotypes they have (just as many of us will do regarding situations anywhere in Africa). And then NATO is a neo-colonialist power encroaching on Russia, which people living in the post/neo-colonialist reality of virtually all of Africa won't consider positively.All I'm doing is continuing on from the point I was originally making in the first post you replied to mate.
Reagan probably had the best postmortem press anybody's ever had.As for Reagan, it's not clear that he had anything to do with the fall of the USSR. There's certainly no historical consensus.
But the issue is that you keep arguing from a NATO/European point of view. The arguments you are providing don't live in the minds of the people you are questioning. Now, if NATO started a huge propaganda campaign in Africa and made sure that every person everywhere is fully aware of the argument you're providing, then sure, you could argue that they're not weighing the arguments correctly by preferring Russia. But that's not happening, and so people will base opinions on the general information and stereotypes they have (just as many of us will do regarding situations anywhere in Africa). And then NATO is a neo-colonialist power encroaching on Russia, which people living in the post/neo-colonialist reality of virtually all of Africa won't consider positively.
Reagan probably had the best postmortem press anybody's ever had.
About Reagan, of course there is no consensus. What current event has a consensus? Even for the invasion of Ukraine you can find Western historians that blame equally Russia and NATO.
But in the highlighted bits below, you did each time make a point about opinions you think people may/may not have.What arguments?
I just said in my 2nd last post in this thread that I wouldn't know for sure that worldwide most people would be against countries joining Nato.
Here you're implying that these people won't care. But they might, actually.Yeah the majority of people in South America, Africa and Asia care deeply about NATO 'expanding'.
This is a problem created solely by Putin and Russia, the best thing for the people of Ukraine, the world and even Russia would be if they ended this unjustified attack tomorrow. Which they could but they won't.
Here you are basically putting words into people's mouths/minds, specifying what they oppose/support exactly.I'm aware that some countries especially in Africa are on the face of it pro Russian because of their history with the Soviet Union in the past and the prevalence of Russian propaganda in those countries media. But some countries leaning more towards Russia than the West isn't the same as the majority of the world being against eastern European countries joining a defensive alliance that will prevent them form being invaded and annexed.
First off I interpreted the post I first replied to be referring to people in general not governments or supranational organizations, which is why I said people as that's who I was talking about.
In your opinion are the majority of the World's population against former Soviet block countries joining NATO for protection?
Same here both times.The majority of the world would see former Soviet bloc countries wanting protection from aggressive neighbours negatively?
Well I wouldn't know for sure if that would actually be the case but it would surprise me to be honest if it were.
Perhaps not but then that is the goal of propaganda.
Okay, I see I was being too cautious, opening myself up to that kind of response. What I meant to say was that Reagan did not cause the fall of the USSR.
Here you're implying that these people won't care. But they might, actually.
Here you are basically putting words into people's mouths/minds, specifying what they oppose/support exactly.
Same here both times.
I don't see how you can say you're not providing arguments for these people's opinions.
No appeasement never works. But it was not appeasement before the invasion. Are forgetting the Cuban missile crisis?
The majority of the people in this world don't think they should suffer for the fight between two super powers to show whose got the bigger dick.
But in Plato's time nuclear wasn't an option.Yes, I agree that this seems to be the policy vs Russia for a long time now. Be cautious and be optimistic that everything will work out with diplomacy.
Does this really work in real life? I don't know. Plato said "If you want peace, prepare for war".
For example, I dislike Reagan for his social policies. He was destructive for the US middle class. However, his hawkish behaviour against USSR liberated a lot of Eastern European countries.
But in Plato's time nuclear wasn't an option.
But in Plato's time nuclear wasn't an option.
Yes, I agree that this seems to be the policy vs Russia for a long time now. Be cautious and be optimistic that everything will work out with diplomacy.
Does this really work in real life? I don't know. Plato said "If you want peace, prepare for war".
For example, I dislike Reagan for his social policies. He was destructive for the US middle class. However, his hawkish behaviour against USSR liberated a lot of Eastern European countries.
Do you think that Russians are afraid of the Western nuclear arsenal? If not, why not?
Yes, they are. Unless you think russians are generally demented.
Exactly!
The MAD doctrine still holds, there will be no nuclear war. Even Putin is not demented.
As long as NATO doesn't go on the offense. Because if you put Putin in a corner the situation is totally different and no one can tell what will happen.
What is different? Putin will be demented "if you put him in a corner"?
Desperation, that's the difference. Most people won't jump through their window... unless there is a fire in the building.
Desperation? So Putin will jump out of the building? Or perhaps he will use a bullet? Yes, this is possible I agree. Still not demented.
What are you talking about? Demented related to the absence of fear, you can do frightening things in spite of fear.
Anyone who isn't afraid of nuclear weapons is a damn fool.Do you think that Russians are afraid of the Western nuclear arsenal? If not, why not?
If Putin is desperate he will kill himself, for example like Hitler did.
He has to be demented to start a nuclear war, that's what you said above, and I agreed. And not only Putin, multiple Russians in the chain of command have to be demented to start a nuclear war with NATO. Do you think there are multiple Russians that are demented? I don't think so.
Or he will cause the death of millions knowing that he is done.
It's a fair worry to have.So you think he will be demented!. And you also think that other Russians around him in the chain of command will also be demented and they will start a nuclear war.
I disagree. I don't think the Russians will be demented no matter how desperate they are.
One example. In December 2021 Biden said Russia will pay a heavy price if it invades Ukraine. This is weak. He did not specify anything, this sounds like an empty threat.
If Biden said "USAF will obliterate any Russian forces that enter Ukraine", and he meant it, and F-16s started flying inside Ukraine near the Russian border, with F-22s and F-35s and B-52s nearby... do you really think that Putin would ever invade Ukraine? I don't think so. Putin had his forces on the border for 2 months and was waiting to see what the NATO response is. NATO did nothing: that was the green light for Putin.
Of course, I understand that if Biden did that, the whole world would blame him as warmonger. We'd see the global anti-american squad in full force. Well yes, but how many lives would have been saved by this "USAF air show"? Sometimes leaders do not have any good options, they have to choose the least worst option from an array of bad options.
And if Russia still invaded?
If the Russians knew that USAF is serious about it they wouldn't dare invade. Why would they? It would be a certain defeat for them.
But even if they did invade, USAF would destroy the first few tanks in their columns and the whole thing would probably end there.
Do you think that Putin would go full nuclear holocaust in this case? Just because he lost a few tanks? Then, if he loses the war a few months from now, why wouldn't he do the same? After all, the Russians are certain that without American help, Ukraine would not be able to fight for long (and they are not wrong).
I think it's funny that you think that.
Probably more like "... and the world would begin to end there".
I didn't say anything about an invasion?
You've lost me.
So you think he will be demented!. And you also think that other Russians around him in the chain of command will also be demented and they will start a nuclear war.
I disagree. I don't think the Russians will be demented no matter how desperate they are.
I believe he was speaking of Russia invading Ukraine and then also responding to part of your post that reads as if you’re talking about Russia being invaded.So that's how you were commenting on an invasion without saying anything about an invasion.
Yes. That's all about invading Ukraine. Not Russia. Read back through it again.This is the conversation you commented on, you were saying, as I said, that if Russia invaded and the US defended Ukraine, it would be the end of the world.
So that's how you were commenting on an invasion without saying anything about an invasion.
Wow, sucks to be a Kurd.
So you think he will be demented!. And you also think that other Russians around him in the chain of command will also be demented and they will start a nuclear war.
I disagree. I don't think the Russians will be demented no matter how desperate they are.
