Westminster Politics

Very often with the fall of PMs you have a drip, drip, drip effect of stories. I think it started before Paterson but yes, you are right, that was the point where Tory MPs and supporters felt able to voice their concerns publicly. The fact it was entirely self-inflicted too probably swayed their thinking.

Yes that's true.

Also for many prime ministers and politicians in general that used be popular, the things that made them turn out to be the things that ultimately break them.

I guess as well that many prime ministers have a initial honeymoon period, including those that are elected by their parties in-between general electons. Major was hugely popular early on helped by the fact that he was so different to Thatcher, likewise with Brown when he succeeded Blair, May when she succeeded Cameron (though she more than most appeared to think that her popularity at that stage would last indefinitely), Johnson when he succeeded May etc. .
 
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Summer sale is now on!
 
The reality is Boris Johnson was the proverbial leopard and didn't change his spots! Anyone with even a casual glance at his political career knew exactly what they were going to get. Why did some people think they were going to get anything different? Boris never pretended to be anything he wasn't....Boris playing the 'buffoon'.... Boris being economical with the truth.... Boris telling tales to get out of being blamed... Boris saying one thing and doing another..Boris when all else fails tells lies.....oh shock horror!! Never expected that... come off it!

There has been a lot of righteous indignation expressed recently, but the simple fact is Boris spotted that the majority of politicians were trying their very best to ignore the outcome of the Brexit referendum, because it didn't go the way they expected and they were caught with their pants down, (or at least looking the other way). Boris recognised that in large swathes of the public their blood was beginning to boil, so he rode the crest of the Farage/Brexit wave, perhaps convincing some in his own party that at least he would be better than Farage!

The majority in the country had voted and their vote had been ignored, so Boris did the obvious, (for a politician 'on the make') he didn't ignore them, he even persuaded millions who had never voted Tory in their life to vote for him, and make no mistake it was for him, does anyone really think all those red wall voters had become Tories... its laughable!

Boris has been a 'chancer' all his life, note his parting words about "them's the breaks".. sums it up nicely, the 'Herd instinct' swept him into power and will now sweep him out of it. Maybe politicians have collectively learned the lesson themselves. I suspect the 80+ majority victory will never be repeated again in the FPTP system.... but who knows?

Do you consider yourself part of the herd that swept him into power?
 
Thought Keir Starmer spoke really well today. Probably the most buoyant and 'on form' I've ever seen him.

Understandable given the circumstances.
 
Is he the worst PM in their history? If not, whereabouts?
Depends on what you view as bad. He got his party and a large portion of the British public to believe his bullshit, is that not the sign of a great leader?
 
Depends on what you view as bad. He got his party and a large portion of the British public to believe his bullshit, is that not the sign of a great leader?

No, it's the sign of a liar.

Boris' strengths are clearly set in campaigning, not governing.

He's the worst PM we've ever had. His record speaks for itself.
 
Is he the worst PM in their history? If not, whereabouts?

Depends how far back you go.

Walpole embezzled huge quantities of public money in his time in office, and the Duke of Wellington managed to both oppose the abolition of slavery and the granting of the vote to the ordinary man, as well as being utterly incompetent. Neville Chamberlain is forever tainted with appeasement and the Earl of Rosebery managed to head a Liberal Government he spent his entire time in office criticising. Lord North lost America, Anthony Eden destroyed British power through Suez.

For me it is Lord John Russell, whose free trade and racist policies caused the deaths of at least 1 million in Ireland (British subjects at the time no less) in the Great Famine. He knew exactly what he was doing and its impact too, so he could not claim ignorance.

Some historical rankings here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_rankings_of_prime_ministers_of_the_United_Kingdom
 
Wilson?... he pretty much left on his own terms I think... but its a rarity

He did indeed. And subsequently, it was found to be due to Wilson suffering from early signs of dementia.
I have read the book about him. And he was uncharacteristically intelligent.
He was a good leader because he realised the need to surround himself with a very strong team.
It was said that he regularly used to do the The Times crossword in his head while on the train from Liverpool to London because he found it too easy to do it on paper.

I used to enjoy it when he was being interviewed on the TV by one of the best BBC political reporters. And in order to give himself time to think about a response, used to take ages lighting his famous pipe. And he won 3 elections for Labour.
 
And the most dangerous. Because he was totally out of control.

It's an outsider view but he didn't seem out of control, I would say the opposite. He was extremely selfish and selfcentered, he seemed to be in control and focused on what beneffited him and his "friends". From a french standpoint one of the few british politician that seem to rival the moral corruption of french politicians.
 
Wilson?... he pretty much left on his own terms I think... but its a rarity
He was under pressures of a different kind, many think his refusal to embroil GB in Vietnam made him one too many enemies in Washington. This was in the days when 'investigative reporting' was in its infancy, 'whiff's of dirty tricks' etc. abounded, but nothing could be uncovered properly, much less proved, but he went suddenly... as they say 'out of a clear blue sky'
 
Do you consider yourself part of the herd that swept him into power?
In the sense of 'standing bye and doing nothing' yes. I never kidded myself that Boris was a knight in shining armour, and couldn't bring myself to vote for him, even though I do believe he was championing the cause of acting to carry out the will of the people, which the majority of politicians were not. At that time otherwise reasonable politicians were all doing 'topsy-turvy' acts of dishonesty really (but better at it than Boris) for one reason or another. Neither could I vote, even in protest sense for Jeremy, a total international socialist he is, but in my eyes 'not a Labour man'.

Being brutally honest I suppose if I had lived in a red wall constituency ... I just might have voted for Boris. However I live in a rock solid labour constituency, so I could afford the luxury of obeying my conscience in which I had vowed I would never vote again if the will of the people was not carried out... but of course knowing the Labour candidate would triumph. It was a cop-out I know. but then again we all play Boris's games, at various times, he just does it all the time and is 'bl**dy hopeless' at it.

I genuinely thought that once Boris has settled the Brexit question, the Tory Grandee's would have moved swiftly to organised his demise; however there were two problems; Brexit wasn't really done (NI Protocol) and then Covid arrived, who better than Boris in the hot seat, either a hero or a sacrificial lamb, or as it turned out...both!
 
I think that Cameron was only marginally better than Johnson.

Under his watch there was a programme of excessive austerity (yes cuts were needed, but not to that extent and he admitted that they would have gone even further had it not been for the Lib Dems), child poverty and the number of people using food banks sky-rocketed, divisions by social class, region or country increase considerably (which he helped drive, through his party's English nationalist, anti-Scottish 2015 general election campaign, joining in with Zac Goldsmith's Islamophobic 2016 London mayoral bid etc.), and his foreign policy record was a disaster. Plus of course he is massively responsible for catastrophically stupid act of self-harm that was Brexit. That excessive austerity and those increased divisions under his watch contributed heavily to the leave vote, quite a few people clearing voted to leave to give him (and Osborne a kicking) so making him front and centre of the remain campaign was a huge mistake, he made a ridiculous and simply undeliverable promises to drastically cut net migration which turned out to be an open goal for the leave campaign, he had repeatedly criticised and blamed the EU for the previous 6 years as PM including for blunders by him and his government, he ran a terrible and overly negative campaign, he arrogantly and wrongly through that he was unbeatable and a genius in electoral contests etc.

The best achievements during the coalition years, legalising same sex marriage, scrapping the compulsory retirement age, increasing the personal allowance etc., were driven by the Lib Dems. The pupil premium policy which divided opinion, but which the Tories and Gove in-particular tried to take credit for, was also driven by the Lib Dems.
 
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In the sense of 'standing bye and doing nothing' yes. I never kidded myself that Boris was a knight in shining armour, and couldn't bring myself to vote for him, even though I do believe he was championing the cause of acting to carry out the will of the people, which the majority of politicians were not. At that time otherwise reasonable politicians were all doing 'topsy-turvy' acts of dishonesty really (but better at it than Boris) for one reason or another. Neither could I vote, even in protest sense for Jeremy, a total international socialist he is, but in my eyes 'not a Labour man'.

Being brutally honest I suppose if I had lived in a red wall constituency ... I just might have voted for Boris. However I live in a rock solid labour constituency, so I could afford the luxury of obeying my conscience in which I had vowed I would never vote again if the will of the people was not carried out... but of course knowing the Labour candidate would triumph. It was a cop-out I know. but then again we all play Boris's games, at various times, he just does it all the time and is 'bl**dy hopeless' at it.

I genuinely thought that once Boris has settled the Brexit question, the Tory Grandee's would have moved swiftly to organised his demise; however there were two problems; Brexit wasn't really done (NI Protocol) and then Covid arrived, who better than Boris in the hot seat, either a hero or a sacrificial lamb, or as it turned out...both!

But Brexit was done. The UK left the EU. The only problem with the NI protocol is that the UK government are trying to break it. Will Johnson's successor have the guts to proceed in breaking the law.
The rest of what happens after Brexit is purely what people fantasised would happen because they believed the lies. Quite clearly all the fantasy stuff wouldn't and could never have happened.
 
Rishi running for PM.. no surprise really. He became a bit popular during the peak of the covid pandemic and lockdowns, tbf announcing furlough does make people receptive to you . As I recall he and Whitty were very popular with middle aged ladies.
 
Rishi running for PM.. no surprise really. He became a bit popular during the peak of the covid pandemic and lockdowns, tbf announcing furlough does make people receptive to you . As I recall he and Whitty were very popular with middle aged ladies.

He is a criminal.
 
It's an outsider view but he didn't seem out of control, I would say the opposite. He was extremely selfish and selfcentered, he seemed to be in control and focused on what beneffited him and his "friends". From a french standpoint one of the few british politician that seem to rival the moral corruption of french politicians.

He was out of control in that he believed that he was answerable to no one. Making policy statements 'on the hoof'.

And of course he had lied to the rest of his MPs about specific subjects causing them to pass on those lies and then he changed what he had said to them on a number of occasions.

Notwithstanding knowingly breaking COVID restrictions and then stating he had done nothing wrong.

The very simple fact that he was out of control resulted in those mass resignations.
 
Rishi running for PM.. no surprise really. He became a bit popular during the peak of the covid pandemic and lockdowns, tbf announcing furlough does make people receptive to you . As I recall he and Whitty were very popular with middle aged ladies.

No surprise. Sunak is one of those people whose youthful appearance and general nothing personality appeals to moronic people.
 
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I think that Cameron was only marginally better than Johnson.

Under his watch there was a programme of excessive austerity (yes cuts were needed, but not to that extent and he admitted that they would have gone even further had it not been for the Lib Dems), child poverty and the number of people using food banks sky-rocketed, divisions by social class, region or country increase considerably (which he helped drive, through his party's English nationalist, anti-Scottish 2015 general election campaign, joining in with Zac Goldsmith's Islamophobic 2016 London mayoral bid etc.), and his foreign policy record was a disaster. Plus of course he is massively responsible for catastrophically stupid act of self-harm that was Brexit. That excessive austerity and those increased divisions under his watch contributed heavily to the leave vote, quite a few people clearing voted to leave to give him (and Osborne a kicking) so making him front and centre of the remain campaign was a huge mistake, he made a ridiculous and simply undeliverable promises to drastically cut net migration which turned out to be an open goal for the leave campaign, he had repeatedly criticised and blamed the EU for the previous 6 years as PM including for blunders by him and his government, he ran a terrible and overly negative campaign, he arrogantly and wrongly through that he was unbeatable and a genius in electoral contests etc.

The best achievements during the coalition years, legalising same sex marriage, scrapping the compulsory retirement age, increasing the personal allowance etc., were driven by the Lib Dems. The pupil premium policy which divided opinion, but which the Tories and Gove in-particular tried to take credit for, was also driven by the Lib Dems.

Agree with most of this. Especially the Cameron/ Osbourne austerity programme. They both seemed to enjoy forcing the austerity programme onto the most vulnerable and then tried to justify it saying - we are all in it together. Oh really.
Such hypocrisy.
 
Seems mental to go with Sunak. I get he's known but surely given Boris they don't want his baggage. Then again MPs are just playing nice for cabinet roles.
 


Haha what?

I've met him a few times, including when we chased a cat out of a block of flats my dad lived in (and he used as a base for the conservative matters with Corby MP Tom Pursglove).

He was an affable fellow in person but his voting history clearly speaks for itself.