ETH is what Arteta was supposed to be
Mikel Arteta | Lego Pep watch
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Thanks for the genuine reply. I just think on here he's judged harshly. If you think he's now up against 4 of the best managers in the game now in Pep, Klopp, Tuchel & Conte with Ten Hag also the potential to be seen as that, yet he's often described as poor or even shit.
And I get your point, good managers elevate their team a good bit, but by that token would elite managers like the ones mentioned not do the same thing but to an even better level? Just think it's not as black and white as what's made out in here, ie he must be poor / shit because he can't overtake 4 of the best managers in the game.
And what it ETH can't break the top 3 / 4, how will he be judged?
He has spent enough. Basically replaced the entire starting 11 and then some. The squad has few legacy players left. Its an Arteta squad now.
Poorly, the same way Arteta is. ETH has won league titles and has taken teams with modest budgets in comparison to levels where they are competing head to head with the best in Europe. The same can't be said for Arteta who by all accounts has been backed, especially by an Arsenal manager's standards and has failed so far.
That being said - if he spends a good amount of money and can't even make the CL - then that would be a failure of a season.
According to transfer market.
Ole - €458.6m in almost 3 years.
Arteta - €361.98 (so far) 2.5 years
Conte - €151.2 (not sure if Romero has been made permanent) in 8 months.
Ole - €458.6m in almost 3 years.
Arteta - €361.98 (so far) 2.5 years
Conte - €151.2 (not sure if Romero has been made permanent) in 8 months.
I understand ETH volume of work, that's why I asked the initial question about Arteta, because obviously he's no body of work to fall back on.
I know ETH had a great first season in the Champions League, I think since it's been about par, getting knocked out the group staje the next 2 seasons and first knockout by Benfica last season. Don't even think the Europa League runs were that good after the Champions League knockouts.
But I do get the excitement around him, and I'm very interested to see how he does. I think breaking the top 2 is a big ask, even top 3 or 4 will be tough. I certainly don't think it would make him a poor manager if he doesn't given the competition.
Well Ole eventually got his team to second place. And we all agree he wasn’t a good manager. So…
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And yet I think he did an ok to good job. Like you say, a 3rd and 2nd place finish, the lottery of PK's away from a Europa League win, sure it unravelled at the end, partly because I think he defaulted to buying names instead of more upcoming players, but if ETH were to get the same results over the next 2 years he'd be regarded as doing pretty good as well, no?
3rd and 2nd would be an upward trajectory, so yeah, that would definitely mean he’s doing well. That’s not my point though. Which is that it doesn’t take an exceptional season to break into the top 4. Even the best teams/managers have off seasons. Consistently failing to make the top four over a number of years, after spending as much money as Arteta has, would be a black mark against him.
It doesn’t really make sense to me when people excuse Arteta for missing out on top 4 because Spurs and Chelsea have better squads. He’s been in the job almost 3 years, spent loads of money and basically revamped the whole team. If said team still isn’t good enough to get in the top 4 then that’s on him.
It's just ironic because this time last year every single person, Arsenal fan or not, said Spurs, United, even Leicester and West Ham in some cases had a better squad than Arsenal.
But the fact that he finished above most those sides seems to be some sort of critique instead of a good thing.
United and Chelsea have better squads on paper, and financially.
Arsenal and Spurs should be even, but having Son and Kane is just something Arsenal don't have, or maybe Jesus could get to that level who knows.
People are also ignoring that Arsenals whole policy last summer was buy young players on low wages for a bit bigger fees who can grow into their spot and become better players. It wasn't for instant success.
Nail on the head. That and the fact they all ignore he took over a rubbish squad that was 12th in the table. Although squad and XI wise I do think Arsenal, Spurs and United have their different strengths and weaknesses that put them in the same competition bracket. Arteta managed to finish 1 point behind Conte's Spurs without a functioning strikerIt also needs to be noted that top 4 has become much harder in the past 5 years or so. City and Liverpool are top 3 teams in the world. Chelsea won the CL a year ago and United and Spurs have plenty of quality.
Or maybe it's also due to the fact he took over a 12th place team who had their worst XI and squad in over 20 years
Eth has a big ask and no one will expect him to compete with Liverpool or City in his first season but if he after 3 season like Ole is only there to compete for the 4th spot the he is a failure. I feel Arteta should be held to the same standards.
Yes Arsenal are not as big as United but for me you are in the same spot 3 years later. Emery finished 5th with 69 points and here you are three seasons later after spending 250 m plus. He may have removed some bad eggs but no guarantee these current lot especially the likes of Saka or Martinelli ir Gabriel don't start demanding more and may leave because of lack of CL. Then what was the point of whole rebuild will be the question.
I don't know whether he is a shit manager or a great manager but he has done a poor job so far and is very lucky to be still managing a big club like Arsenal. Anyways, I don't think any Arsenal fan should deny his excuses is running thin now. Another poor start or slump in form should lead to him being sacked.
And then revamped the entire thing such that nearly every player in the starting XI is one that he bought or clearly rates.
Honest question to resident arsenal fans here, what is the expectation from Arteta this season?
True, but when his first XI played last season we were generally good. It's when we had injuries to those that the wheels started falling off (I get that was partly his doing trying to shed so many players).
So this summer we need to improve the first XI further but also get more quality in the squad in general to make sure there's no dramatic drop off when we get a couple of injuries like last season.
Like every other manager the fan base will continue to judge him as the season progresses.
Honestly; the excuses for Arteta mirror the excuses that were made for Ole.
Not even in the same league. ETH is an experienced manager with titles. Arteta got lucky and has coasted along.
Manutd fans should just be happy that Arteta is Arsenal manager and should hope their board is completely sold on him.
I bet ETH would swap all of his titles for Arteta's hair though
If expectations were lower for Ole, yes. Just wait until they get off to a good start to the season.
Same excuses and nonsense though: came into a mess of a squad, has shown he is capable of beating some of the top managers, put together some good runs, has 'improved' some players, has good rid of bad apples, is building a good squad etc.
Absolute mirror of the bullshit that was used to defend Ole; and all metrics that distract from the actual football being played and overall results.
I think Arteta has done a passable job up to now. But the lowering of standards because there are 'better managers in the league' says it all.
Firstly, I want at least 1 more player maybe 2 to improve midfield / attacking midfield.
Get that, and main priority for me is I want another improvement in points total on last season. 51 points, to 58 points, to 69 points the 3 finishes under Arteta, this season I want to hit mid 70's.
I want a good run in Europe, really we should be making the final at least.
I want a good run in the domestic cups, and at the very least not an early disappointing exit in the FA Cup because we played squad players.
I want to see some more consistent attacking football. I want to see more goals, more creativity, more chances created.
I also want the defence to tighten a bit, I want to see us harder to beat away from home, I don't want us to see capitulations like the Spurs, Palace and City games that were embarrassing.
Edit: I also want to see new contracts for Saka & Saliba, and Saliba properly integrated.
Think that covers most of it.
This seems reasonable.
It's good to see an Arsenal fan giving an assessment of what they expect, without the need to resort to hysterics because there are 'better managers in the league'. I think what you put forward is a fair, and realistic expectation.
I mean, what he said is mostly what we all want.
A deep cup run, improvement on points tally. Those are the two main outcomes. Actual league placement.. i'm not going to sit here and say I want top 4, because realistically I know that City, Liverpool, Chelsea and Spurs will be ahead of us (on paper, on odds etc etc).
But, i'd want us to be competing for top 4.
Saliba and Saka contracts are the next ones to sort after Zinchenko imo. Probably more important than anymore signings.
On paper the squad (if Zinchenko comes in), is not too bad. I don't really trust Turner, and not sure we quite have enough in attack, but I think we could get by.
The icing on the cake would be another forward (which it sounds like will happen if Pepe leaves).
Of course it's what you all want. But at least he conveyed that across, instead of just bitching and moaning about people not rating Arteta, or other teams having better managers.
At the end of the day; Tuchel, Klopp and Pep are all in a different stratosphere to Ole. However; most on here expected a title challenge - of some form - at the start of last season. Although the other mentioned managers are much better than Ole, the expectations were set by the length of Ole's tenure and the money he spent. You can't set your own objectives based on how good other managers are.
Thing is, no one knows what the points tallies will look like for top-four - but at least setting out a viable points target, is some form of a barometer and metric to judge the season on.
It's not just off the managers though, it's combined with the squad quality. If a team has a better manager and a better squad, it's obviously fair to say you would expect them to finish above you.
I mean, Ole finished 2nd, and followed it up by signing Varane, Ronaldo and Sancho. So yes, i'd say it's more than reasonable to expect a title challenge the following season. Don't entirely think those two things are comparable.
I honestly thought it was very obvious we'd all expect more points next season than last considering we're spending more money and have more experience. I'd want 70-75 points.
Well, you have set a points tally, so I'm happy enough you are willing to do that. I would hope you would want at least 75 points though; as Arteta is now there longer and has spent more - considering you finished with 69 points last season? Finishing with 70 points, wouldn't be any progress, unless it was supplemented with a cup.
Yes managers and squad quality matter, but what's the point in continuing to back Arteta is you don't believe that by spending longer at the club and spending more money, he can bridge the gap?
If anyone thought our squad was on par with Liverpool and City at the start of last season, they are fecking mental. I'm guessing you rate a-lot of your players higher than ours - so there you go. Also, Ole came off a very underwhelming 74 points 2nd place finish. We expected a title challenge, because otherwise what is the point? He was going into his 3rd season and had spent 400 odd million. Our fans have expectations, despite acknowledging that City/Liverpool had better managers/squads.
Agreed but we're also in Europe, which will pay it's tole and probably balances out some of the signings we've made. I'd still expect an improvement though overall.
Maybe but I am a realist, and I think Arteta is here for a while. The plan would hopefully be when we get 5 teams in the CL to become a regular CL side again, and then use that as a platform to climb. At the same time Pep probably leaves which aids the gap a bit.
I mean... A LOT of United fans thought exactly that, especially vs Liverpool..
Now I rate them higher, but at the start of last season I didn't. A lot of our players have developed quicker than I thought.
Well, plenty thought Ole was here for some massive overhaul, but ultimately Arteta will need to keep on improving to keep his job. Ole also got 3rd place with 66 points, so people saying "oh he got 2nd and 3rd" lack any kind of context. I would expect Arteta to be sacked next season if he goes through another horrid run, and you look off the pace for top-four.
No, a-lot of United fans expected a title challenge mainly because of the money Ole spent. Very few actually thought we had a better team than Liverpool. I think most - deep down - felt it was going to fall apart for Ole last season.
But then on the flip side if he can't be expected to gazump those 4/5 then doesn't it then fall on the boards sword for the fact two of them were free agents when Arteta was badly struggling?
It is transparently ludicrous to present Arsenal as a 12th placed team.
70+ points and a very big attempt at winning the Europa. Top 4 is the target but I wouldn't cut Arteta loose if he narrowly misses out. If he gets a lower points tally and wins the Europa then that's obviously sufficient for now as he'll have qualified for the CL and brought in a trophy.
There will be context to next season, we could potentially lose an irreplacable player for the whole season, which I can't legally discuss here. If that happens 60 points would be perhaps passable.
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We were 12th place after 19 games when he took over and not only that we were conceeding 30 shots per game against relegation favourites Watford
He took over a side without a functioning midfield, with a porous defense, with all of the best attacking and creative players with a foot in the retirement home.
This thread is going in circles because the same idiots keep coming in and repeating straw man nonsense about Arsenal supporters making excuses for Arteta and bringing up Ole, a manager for a decade plus, for some reason.
Arsenal supporters saw reasons for encouragement last season, not least some young players who looked like they could actually play instead of pensioners and prima donnas with their best years behind them. That was counter balanced by Artetas stubbornness and idiocy (Spurs away). It doesn't mean hes shit or he's great, just that he's a young manager yet and unfortunately we get to see his mistakes play out as well as his wins.
He will be out the door the moment we've not accomplished the basics mentioned by someone above this season (though I doubt we're reaching any Cup finals).
Arsenal supporters saw reasons for encouragement last season, not least some young players who looked like they could actually play instead of pensioners and prima donnas with their best years behind them. That was counter balanced by Artetas stubbornness and idiocy (Spurs away). It doesn't mean hes shit or he's great, just that he's a young manager yet and unfortunately we get to see his mistakes play out as well as his wins.
He will be out the door the moment we've not accomplished the basics mentioned by someone above this season (though I doubt we're reaching any Cup finals).
Going into last season only 5 of the starters were players he bought, none costing more than 50m. He's been supplemented by Tierney and Xhaka who most of the Caf laugh about, as Arsenal fans get frustrated with him. And 2-3 youth team players in Saka, ESR and Martinelli. That's hardly an embarassment of riches. The back ups are also simply not up to task and are a huge downgrade.
Two points
It was also 1/4 Nuno's Spurs as well we mustn't forget.GD is usually a solid indicator of how teams are really performing and where they're going. Nuno was -7 after 10 games whilst Conte was +36 over 28. Arteta for reference was +13 over 38. I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that a full season of Conte would have seen a bigger points gap but I guess next season will tell us more. I don't think Arteta is doing a bad job for what it's worth and you are generally trending upwards. You can't hang onto the young squad thing forever though as a) not all of them will stick around if the "process" isn't going fast enough and b) sometimes young players just don't follow the trajectory you thought they would - Dele Alli for example.
Missing the point. Even if he didn’t buy them, it’s obvious he rates Saka, Martinelli, Xhaka etc. They’re his players and this is his team.