Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

Where the feck will this end.
The West will never run out of money to supply arms and it appears Russia aren't affected by sanctions at all.

How long can this last or will it take until Ukraine is totally made defunct before Russia pull back.
 
McGrathsipan said:
Where the feck will this end.
The West will never run out of money to supply arms and it appears Russia aren't affected by sanctions at all.

How long can this last or will it take until Ukraine is totally made defunct before Russia pull back.
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There is also the fact that Russia may use chemical weapons if they start really losing ground. They know that the west is to feckless(or are too scared of the possibility of nuclear war) to directely intervene.
 
McGrathsipan said:
The West will never run out of money to supply arms and it appears Russia aren't affected by sanctions at all.
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Russia pushing on and persevering in spite of the sanctions does not mean they are not affected at all. There's plenty of research on this subject.

Here's a 10-day old, Yale research paper on how sanctions are crippling their economy:
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4167193

PS: Expectations that sanctions would immediately affect their war efforts were wide off the mark from the start. Sanctions tend to affect the medium term. Not the short term.
 
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sun_tzu said:
suspect, they will be handed over in port somewhere and the Ukranians will sail in under a Ukranian flag
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In a Ukrainian port or in a UK port and then sailed under a Ukrainian flag across the Black Sea?

Because I can see a lot of ways that scenario 2 doesn’t go well.
 
Carolina Red said:
In a Ukrainian port or in a UK port and then sailed under a Ukrainian flag across the Black Sea?

Because I can see a lot of ways that scenario 2 doesn’t go well.
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Im not sure there is a safe Ukrainian port... certainly we are sending in everything by land so I would imagine hand over in international waters, Uk port or perhaps somewhere in the med - italy, gibralta

Anything you look at there at the moment you take the attitude it goes in with a target on it but its better than not helping
 
I'd say they just announced that they will give the ships after war is done? Ukraine has said numerous times, they don't fancy doing any de-mining right now as orcs tend to be unpredictable.
 
sun_tzu said:
Im not sure there is a safe Ukrainian port... certainly we are sending in everything by land so I would imagine hand over in international waters, Uk port or perhaps somewhere in the med - italy, gibralta

Anything you look at there at the moment you take the attitude it goes in with a target on it but its better than not helping
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Yeah I get that everything is a target, but sending arms and vehicles across land borders is a bit different than sailing them through the confined waters of the Mediterranean, very close to the Russian sub port at Tartus, and then up the Bosporus and then across a Black Sea that’s almost a Russian lake.

I’ve always felt that ships were basically off the table as something to realistically send Ukraine.
 
Thread from pro-Ukrainian Australian ex-Army Major on Ukrainian military strategy, including how they ended up fighting the war Russia wanted them to fight in the Donbass:

 
Foxbatt said:
I don't understand what you mean? The US of course has invaded countries that are in other regions. Iraq and Afghanistan. NATO has invaded Afghanistan too. Or rather taken over the mission in Afghanistan so it's not a defensive organization.
The Russian invasion of Ukraine and the US invasion of Iraq should be condemned equally. Both are violent acts of war.
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that's exactly what i said if you follow the logic of the post.

Lemoor said:
A memo to Soviet Union minister saying that NATO won't move forces to East Germany after reunification is not equivalent to treaty saying that NATO will not accept any new members. It's really not that complicated.
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it went back on its understanding. you can pretend otherwise but it's dishonest and i don't see the reason in doing it because nato's expansion doesn't change the ultimate conclusion. but my post was basically a decision tree in text form which always leads to "russian preemptive war = unjustified".

anyway will ignore replies plus thread as this has become more of wedge-issue than anything else. when not about direct news updates at least which i'm myself not contributing to either rn.
 
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RedDevilQuebecois said:
With this musical chair game between Eastern Ukraine and Southern Ukraine, you have to wonder how long until both fronts collapse from the Russian perspective.
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I think it may happen sooner rather than later given that beyond already being depleted, they are also struggling to deal with US weapons now in the hands of Ukrainians.
 
Jeremy Corbyn urges west to stop arming Ukraine

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/aug/02/jeremy-corbyn-urges-west-to-stop-arming-ukraine

Ex-Labour leader also tells Beirut-based TV channel he was criticised over antisemitism because of stance on Palestine

Jeremy Corbyn has urged western countries to stop arming Ukraine.

“Pouring arms in isn’t going to bring about a solution, it’s only going to prolong and exaggerate this war,” Corbyn said. We might be in for years and years of a war in Ukraine.”

Corbyn gave the interview on Al Mayadeen, a Beirut-based TV channel that has carried pro-Russia reporting since Vladimir Putin’s invasion of Ukraine.

“What I find disappointing is that hardly any of the world’s leaders use the word peace; they always use the language of more war, and more bellicose war.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/aug/02/jeremy-corbyn-urges-west-to-stop-arming-ukraine

Making the mistake of assuming Russia wants to negotiate I am sad to say.
 
Frosty said:
The HIMARS news is unconfirmed by Reuters.
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Also worth saying they’ve claimed that multiple times before (to the point there’d be none left). I’d be surprised if they haven’t managed to counter a few of them given how much Ukraine is using them though.
 
Frosty said:
Jeremy Corbyn urges west to stop arming Ukraine

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/aug/02/jeremy-corbyn-urges-west-to-stop-arming-ukraine

Ex-Labour leader also tells Beirut-based TV channel he was criticised over antisemitism because of stance on Palestine

Jeremy Corbyn has urged western countries to stop arming Ukraine.

“Pouring arms in isn’t going to bring about a solution, it’s only going to prolong and exaggerate this war,” Corbyn said. We might be in for years and years of a war in Ukraine.”

Corbyn gave the interview on Al Mayadeen, a Beirut-based TV channel that has carried pro-Russia reporting since Vladimir Putin’s invasion of Ukraine.

“What I find disappointing is that hardly any of the world’s leaders use the word peace; they always use the language of more war, and more bellicose war.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/aug/02/jeremy-corbyn-urges-west-to-stop-arming-ukraine

Making the mistake of assuming Russia wants to negotiate I am sad to say.
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Corbyn the useful idiot.
 
He wants the leaders to use the word "peace"! That's his solution for this war. Why didn't we think of this before???




Frosty said:
Jeremy Corbyn urges west to stop arming Ukraine

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/aug/02/jeremy-corbyn-urges-west-to-stop-arming-ukraine

Ex-Labour leader also tells Beirut-based TV channel he was criticised over antisemitism because of stance on Palestine

Jeremy Corbyn has urged western countries to stop arming Ukraine.

“Pouring arms in isn’t going to bring about a solution, it’s only going to prolong and exaggerate this war,” Corbyn said. We might be in for years and years of a war in Ukraine.”

Corbyn gave the interview on Al Mayadeen, a Beirut-based TV channel that has carried pro-Russia reporting since Vladimir Putin’s invasion of Ukraine.

“What I find disappointing is that hardly any of the world’s leaders use the word peace; they always use the language of more war, and more bellicose war.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/aug/02/jeremy-corbyn-urges-west-to-stop-arming-ukraine

Making the mistake of assuming Russia wants to negotiate I am sad to say.
Click to expand...
 
Frosty said:
Jeremy Corbyn urges west to stop arming Ukraine

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/aug/02/jeremy-corbyn-urges-west-to-stop-arming-ukraine

Ex-Labour leader also tells Beirut-based TV channel he was criticised over antisemitism because of stance on Palestine

Jeremy Corbyn has urged western countries to stop arming Ukraine.

“Pouring arms in isn’t going to bring about a solution, it’s only going to prolong and exaggerate this war,” Corbyn said. We might be in for years and years of a war in Ukraine.”

Corbyn gave the interview on Al Mayadeen, a Beirut-based TV channel that has carried pro-Russia reporting since Vladimir Putin’s invasion of Ukraine.

“What I find disappointing is that hardly any of the world’s leaders use the word peace; they always use the language of more war, and more bellicose war.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/aug/02/jeremy-corbyn-urges-west-to-stop-arming-ukraine

Making the mistake of assuming Russia wants to negotiate I am sad to say.
Click to expand...

I wonder how he'd feel about that if Britain was invaded by one of the largest countries in the world.
 
Frosty said:
Jeremy Corbyn urges west to stop arming Ukraine

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/aug/02/jeremy-corbyn-urges-west-to-stop-arming-ukraine

Ex-Labour leader also tells Beirut-based TV channel he was criticised over antisemitism because of stance on Palestine

Jeremy Corbyn has urged western countries to stop arming Ukraine.

“Pouring arms in isn’t going to bring about a solution, it’s only going to prolong and exaggerate this war,” Corbyn said. We might be in for years and years of a war in Ukraine.”

Corbyn gave the interview on Al Mayadeen, a Beirut-based TV channel that has carried pro-Russia reporting since Vladimir Putin’s invasion of Ukraine.

“What I find disappointing is that hardly any of the world’s leaders use the word peace; they always use the language of more war, and more bellicose war.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/aug/02/jeremy-corbyn-urges-west-to-stop-arming-ukraine

Making the mistake of assuming Russia wants to negotiate I am sad to say.
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Retire already, Corbyn. This episode is one of the reasons why people don't see you fit to lead anything anymore.

How long until Starmer gives him the boot? Mind you, I say he's as much of a liability as Stéphane Dion used to be before he was removed from the Canadian cabinet.
 
Frosty said:
“Pouring arms in isn’t going to bring about a solution, it’s only going to prolong and exaggerate this war,” Corbyn said. We might be in for years and years of a war in Ukraine.”
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is that not right though? those who would argue in favour of sending arms would also mostly acknowledge that it will mean a prolonged war. i think he has half a valid argument. if he said "just pouring arms in" isn't a good idea, he'd be on to something. followed by "initially it made sense to give ukraine arms to defend itself and perhaps still does up to a point". problem with his statement is that not giving them arms would mean no ability for self-defense. other than that i agree with him about the lack of diplomatic overtures aside from the grain deal. i don't think ukraine can beat russia and don't think russia can beat ukraine so in for a long war without a settlement.

depends on goal. if it's peaceful settlement then sending arms only and no talk of peace is not smart. if it's military defeat of russia, which i don't think is possible, then sending arms only and no talk of peace makes sense but also doesn't seem smart.
 
neverdie said:
anyway will ignore replies plus thread as this has become more of wedge-issue than anything else. when not about direct news updates at least which i'm myself not contributing to either rn.
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Well you made it for over 24h, 22h longer than I thought.
 
massi83 said:
Well you made it for over 24h, 22h longer than I thought.
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it's news related. seems worthy of talking about. don't take logical reasoning personal.

also gets right to the heart of the "wedge" quality. what is the goal here? peace or defeat of russia?
 
neverdie said:
is that not right though? those who would argue in favour of sending arms would also mostly acknowledge that it will mean a prolonged war. i think he has half a valid argument. if he said "just pouring arms in" isn't a good idea, he'd be on to something. followed by "initially it made sense to give ukraine arms to defend itself and perhaps still does up to a point". problem with his statement is that not giving them arms would mean no ability for self-defense. other than that i agree with him about the lack of diplomatic overtures aside from the grain deal. i don't think ukraine can beat russia and don't think russia can beat ukraine so in for a long war without a settlement.

depends on goal. if it's peaceful settlement then sending arms only and no talk of peace is not smart. if it's military defeat of russia, which i don't think is possible, then sending arms only and no talk of peace makes sense but also doesn't seem smart.
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A prolonged war == orcs advance at a slower rate and kill and tortutute fewer civilians.
 
neverdie said:
is that not right though? those who would argue in favour of sending arms would also mostly acknowledge that it will mean a prolonged war. i think he has half a valid argument. if he said "just pouring arms in" isn't a good idea, he'd be on to something. followed by "initially it made sense to give ukraine arms to defend itself and perhaps still does up to a point". problem with his statement is that not giving them arms would mean no ability for self-defense. other than that i agree with him about the lack of diplomatic overtures aside from the grain deal. i don't think ukraine can beat russia and don't think russia can beat ukraine so in for a long war without a settlement.

depends on goal. if it's peaceful settlement then sending arms only and no talk of peace is not smart. if it's military defeat of russia, which i don't think is possible, then sending arms only and no talk of peace makes sense but also doesn't seem smart.
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You joking, right? Lack of diplomatic overtures? We tried many diplomatic approaches to the point of humiliating ourselves just to arrange any kind of discussions with them. But Russia is clearly not interested in any of that, they want to win the war using warfare as they are terrorists.
 
The Firestarter said:
A prolonged war == orcs advance at a slower rate and kill and tortutute fewer civilians.
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in the end, though, is it a peace settlement or a defeat of russia? i'd imagine there's some kind of longterm planning even if there are obvious shortterm goals like defending against the russian advance.
 
dove said:
You joking, right? Lack of diplomatic overtures? We tried many diplomatic approaches to the point of humiliating ourselves just to arrange any kind of discussions with them. But Russia is clearly not interested in any of that, they want to win the war using warfare as they are terrorists.
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neverdie said:
in the end, though, is it a peace settlement or a defeat of russia? i'd imagine there's some kind of longterm planning even if there are obvious shortterm goals like defending against the russian advance.
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^
 
neverdie said:
^
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I think it should be quite clear that peace is the ultimate goal for us. But peace should not be solely based on the Russian terms, there will have to be compromises which Russians are obviously reluctant to do. Who is even talking about the defeat of Russia? Get the feck out of the lands you have no right to be in and the war (at least the military war) is over, it's as simple as that. Nobody is going to invade Russia to defeat them.
 
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