Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

You are certainly not being honest if you are suggesting that I gave my support to the invasion I didn't. While there may be evidence of war crimes, by both sides, there is no evidence of a campaign to wipe out any ethnic group,

Of course these countries joined NATO of their own free will, what's the alternative? Even then this has no relevance. NATO have actually expanded- fact, Are you seriously suggesting NATO haven't expanded because other former Eastern block countries applied to join. How they joined is not important the real question is why.

Frankly I can't be bothered to debate with someone as dishonest and ignorant as you appear to be.

If you are a victim of the US eduction system, please accept my apologies.

NATO is a defensive alliance ffs. Nobody on this whole planet honestly believes that NATO under any circumstances would have invaded Russia preemptively. In fact, nobody believes that NATO would invade Russia under ANY circumstances.

It's like criticizing somebody for learning self defense. What is even Russia's problem with "NATO expansion"? "If you join NATO now, you rob us of the option of invading you, so unfortunately we have to do it immediately! Sorry, but the blame is on you!"

Jesus. Do you guys have any capacity for independent thinking at all? Start using your head.
 
NATO is a defensive alliance ffs. Nobody on this whole planet honestly believes that NATO under any circumstances would have invaded Russia preemptively. In fact, nobody believes that NATO would invade Russia under ANY circumstances.

It's like criticizing somebody for learning self defense. What is even Russia's problem with "NATO expansion"? "If you join NATO now, you rob us of the option of invading you, so unfortunately we have to do it immediately! Sorry, but the blame is on you!"

Jesus. Do you guys have any capacity for independent thinking at all? Start using your head.

Yeah Nato is this existential threat to Russia, because it means they will get hammered if they attack a Nato country. How unfair. With Russian officials atm blustering about retaking the old soviet bloc, it's no wonder these countries are in Nato and it's not surprising that Ukraine would want to part of that considering they are experiencing a full scale invasion hell bent on anexing the country.
 
I know that is a rhetorical question, but I worked in Estonia for a little while, and practically everyone I met was very grateful for being a part of both the EU and NATO.

Visited once and loved it, had an ex from there. Would go back tommorow if I could.
 
I know that is a rhetorical question, but I worked in Estonia for a little while, and practically everyone I met was very grateful for being a part of both the EU and NATO.

Yes, we are, it's been our foreign policy agenda ever since 1992.
 
Can anyone see this ending in anything other than WW3?

The Russian people will eventually turn on Putin. He has brought them to ruin and when they properly feel the effects of his actions he will be chased out. And with that the war will end. Atleast this is what I'm hoping for that high standing Russians do a coup soon.
 
The Russian people will eventually turn on Putin. He has brought them to ruin and when they properly feel the effects of his actions he will be chased out. And with that the war will end. Atleast this is what I'm hoping for that high standing Russians do a coup soon.

Doubt it. Dictators are impossible to get rid of. And the state media will brainwash them anyway.
 
Doubt it. Dictators are impossible to get rid of. And the state media will brainwash them anyway.

Several dictators in history who have been removed from power by his own people. Might have to get real bad before it happens though.
 
Several dictators in history who have been removed from power by his own people. Might have to get real bad before it happens though.

Putin has high approval ratings though. It would take a massive revolution for it happens and I just dont see it.
 


Russia is plundering gold in Sudan to boost Putin's war effort in Ukraine

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/07/29/africa/sudan-russia-gold-investigation-cmd-intl/index.html

Khartoum, Sudan (CNN) - Days after Moscow launched its bloody war on Ukraine, a Russian cargo plane stood on a Khartoum runway, a strip of tarmac surrounded by red-orange sand. The aircraft's manifest stated it was loaded with cookies. Sudan rarely, if ever, exports cookies.

A heated debate transpired between officials in a back office of Khartoum International Airport. They feared that inspecting the plane would vex the country's increasingly pro-Russian military leadership. Multiple previous attempts to intercept suspicious Russian carriers had been stopped. Ultimately, however, the officials decided to board the plane.

Inside the hold, colorful boxes of cookies stretched out before them. Hidden just beneath were wooden crates of Sudan's most precious resource. Gold. Roughly one ton of it.

This incident in February -- recounted by multiple official Sudanese sources to CNN -- is one of at least 16 known Russian gold smuggling flights out of Sudan, Africa's third largest producer of the precious metal, over the last year and a half.
 
what else? nato. did it expand contrary to its promises? yes.

Did NATO expand contrary to its treaty commitments? No.

can you understand why russia might do it using the logic of another state like the us? yes.

What does that even mean?

does this logic make russia's invasion morally ok? no, because no one, except die hard american exceptionalists, justify america's invasions, either.

What on earth has the morality of Russia's actions in Ukraine got to do with the US?
 
Did NATO expand contrary to its treaty commitments? No.



What does that even mean?



What on earth has the morality of Russia's actions in Ukraine got to do with the US?
i've given you a quick summary of every argument that derails the thread from news updates and decent answers to all of them. let's say ukraine are angels are russia is the devil. problem solved. no one disagrees that preemptive war was good. when people say "what would the us have done" they're saying "can you judge russia's response according to the logic of another state and major power like the us?" the answer is yes but that only holds if you want to leave morality behind completely because while the us has and will act like this in its own region, do the people who defend russia's war also defend those wars made by the us? the answer to that question is no. well, some do to be fair but they at least don't pretend that morality matters in their calculations. mearsheimer and that crowd.
 


Russia is plundering gold in Sudan to boost Putin's war effort in Ukraine

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/07/29/africa/sudan-russia-gold-investigation-cmd-intl/index.html

Khartoum, Sudan (CNN) - Days after Moscow launched its bloody war on Ukraine, a Russian cargo plane stood on a Khartoum runway, a strip of tarmac surrounded by red-orange sand. The aircraft's manifest stated it was loaded with cookies. Sudan rarely, if ever, exports cookies.

A heated debate transpired between officials in a back office of Khartoum International Airport. They feared that inspecting the plane would vex the country's increasingly pro-Russian military leadership. Multiple previous attempts to intercept suspicious Russian carriers had been stopped. Ultimately, however, the officials decided to board the plane.

Inside the hold, colorful boxes of cookies stretched out before them. Hidden just beneath were wooden crates of Sudan's most precious resource. Gold. Roughly one ton of it.

This incident in February -- recounted by multiple official Sudanese sources to CNN -- is one of at least 16 known Russian gold smuggling flights out of Sudan, Africa's third largest producer of the precious metal, over the last year and a half.

The Girl Scout’s guide to gold smuggling
 
And this expanding NATO, is it in the room with us right now?

this thread is consistently the worst one in the ce section. the same old debates are rehashed time and time again. it's circular beyond parody.
every argument and counter argument about the war has been made a hundred times over. yet somehow we're on page 840 making the same arguments that were made and in better context imo back in february and march.

are their neo nazis in ukraine? yes. were they incorporated into ukraine's official military apparatus? yes. is it just the azov? no. does this justify preemptive war on the part of russia? no. have ukrainians committed war crimes? yes. have the russians committed war crimes? yes. why has this happened? it has something to do with ordering hundreds of thousands of people to pick up guns and murder each other and pretend that it's normal. tends to happen in every war. that's that one finished.

what else? nato. did it expand contrary to its promises? yes. is that a reason for russia to invade ukraine? no. can you understand why russia might do it using the logic of another state like the us? yes. does this logic make russia's invasion morally ok? no, because no one, except die hard american exceptionalists, justify america's invasions, either.

i've lost the point of this thread. will only say that this reaffirms my view that you're seeing a stalemate which will not change much and the substantial facts of war could be condensed into a biweekly article. that's typically the case for these tangents which were very relevant at the outset but are now like banging your head against the wall after everyone has argued over them ad nauseum.

I'd propose an alternative approach:

Is invading countries bad? Yes. /Thread.
 
Saw that. The Ukrainians denied it almost immediately which makes me think that it was another piss-poor attempt at a false flag.

Hard to say what happened, although I wouldn't be surprised if the Ukrainians are involved in some form of sabotage against Russian navy assets (which they would obviously deny publicly).
 
Saw that. The Ukrainians denied it almost immediately which makes me think that it was another piss-poor attempt at a false flag.

Why should they deny it and why shouldn't they attack it either?
 
i've given you a quick summary of every argument that derails the thread from news updates and decent answers to all of them. let's say ukraine are angels are russia is the devil. problem solved. no one disagrees that preemptive war was good. when people say "what would the us have done" they're saying "can you judge russia's response according to the logic of another state and major power like the us?" the answer is yes but that only holds if you want to leave morality behind completely because while the us has and will act like this in its own region, do the people who defend russia's war also defend those wars made by the us? the answer to that question is no. well, some do to be fair but they at least don't pretend that morality matters in their calculations. mearsheimer and that crowd.

I don't understand what you mean? The US of course has invaded countries that are in other regions. Iraq and Afghanistan. NATO has invaded Afghanistan too. Or rather taken over the mission in Afghanistan so it's not a defensive organization.
The Russian invasion of Ukraine and the US invasion of Iraq should be condemned equally. Both are violent acts of war.
 
Why should they deny it and why shouldn't they attack it either?

I don't get it either. Ever since Russia began the invasion, I don't think anyone sane would expect Ukraine to not fire back into Crimea if they get the right weapons to do so (which they do now). I cannot tell how many ships are still left in that naval base, but Sevastopol remains as huge of a target as Pearl Harbor would be if an enemy has the resources and the guts to attack it.
 
I don't get it either. Ever since Russia began the invasion, I don't think anyone sane would expect Ukraine to not fire back into Crimea if they get the right weapons to do so (which they do now). I cannot tell how many ships are still left in that naval base, but Sevastopol remains as huge of a target as Pearl Harbor would be if an enemy has the resources and the guts to attack it.

I see firing into Crimea and launching sabotage attacks against Russian naval assets docked in Sevastopol as being a bit different. Zelenskyy has been pretty good about selectively going after ammo depots and Russian military targets so far without doing something like attacking Crimea proper that would incentive Putin to escalate with more destructive weapons (such as thermobarics). I think the Ukrainians have so far done a good job of mitigating that risk by sticking to military targets.
 
Thread on why Russian weapons may be underperforming:


Very interesting insights. Some comments:
1. The "4 bolts are gonna crack, so let's put 8 instead" is very on point to other Soviet/Russian engineering, eg. nuclear reactor design: a wall needs to be somewhere above half a meter thick for optimum safety/cost efficiency but we can't calculate how much exactly so we make it 1 meter thick and that's that.
2. The abundance of controls on the more sophisticated systems is similar to any other Soviet professional equipment - lack of embedded computing and in general subpar digital electronics make for terrible UX , because you need to perform 10 button toggles which would have been automated in the US made equivalent for example. This is slightly different outcome to what the tweet author described, but it is also different types of application.
3. Using pre 1986 maps of Chernobyl area is so mad I almost can't believe it. Almost.
 
i've given you a quick summary of every argument that derails the thread from news updates and decent answers to all of them.
If you consider these to be decent answers it says more about you than about this thread.

what else? nato. did it expand contrary to its promises? yes.
A memo to Soviet Union minister saying that NATO won't move forces to East Germany after reunification is not equivalent to treaty saying that NATO will not accept any new members. It's really not that complicated.