And I’ll continue to believe that the opinion of the Ministry of Defense actually dying for their homeland trumps Yours on this issue
Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion
- Thread starter Wednesday at Stoke
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
It was back then, but a lot has happened since 2014.
Not trying to be rude, but what relevant expertise do you have to support this?There looks to be 3 big craters in this photo, the fact that all 3 seems to be the same size indicates some kind of missile strike.
Judging by the size of the craters a warhead of a considerable size must have been used, this is Kalibr, Tomahawk, ATACMS or Iskander sized craters in my opinion.
Yes.
I have no expertise what so ever, I'm just a regular guy with a slightly unhealthy interest in military stuff. I wrote it was just my own opinion and I don't make any claimes about being an expert.
Graphics are images, not sound.
Finally! So we have someone saying dead russian civilians is ok. Thanks for proving my point.
OK, so are you going to comment all the posts where someone isn't in line with the ministry of defense or did I win some kind of raffle?
Close the thread! Everyone has been proven wrong.
You are transforming into a meme.What have I missed?
You keep complaining about the "funny music" so just mute it if you don't like. Meanwhile we will celebrate Ukraine's success with sound on.
I think I was clear about not liking the entertainment aspect of this war, but I guess I wasn't.
Seeing some entitled people bursting into tears once they get karma they deserve is quite entertaining, not gonna lie.
Different strokes...
I think it's a bit weird that when a poster straight out comes out saying that it's ok to celebrate dead civilians as long as they're Russians (or evil corrupted monsters, which is what orcs canonically are), the reaction is to make fun of another poster who doesn't like the fact that a deadly war is serving as entertainment competing with Netflix and cat videos.
From quite a few posters I expect this, so it's maybe not weird in that sense, but from other posters it's very surprising.
A deadly war is serving as entertainment behause tourists feck off from an occupied area of a Country at war ? Oh and if you don‘t like this „fact“ don‘t watch these videos.
By 7 August official figures estimate at least 28,500 Ukrainian civilian casualties.
There are also estimates of around 850 civilian casualties in the Donetsk and Luhansk People's Republics.
There have been Russian reports of two civilians killed by Ukrainian shelling in the Belgorod Oblast and a further seven workers reported missing after an alleged Ukrainian attack on Crimea.
Every deliberate targeting of Russian civilians by the Ukrainians is a war crime. Every Russian civilian casualty caused by Ukrainian military action is a tragedy. I don't condone anyone who would celebrate a Russian death, and that includes the thousands of young men and boys who are being pretty much press ganged and forced into serving and dying in a war they know nothing about and care even less about.
I grow frustrated when an individual's response to a post (to which my first reaction was that he must have misunderstood, but is in no way defensible on any level) is somehow implied to stand for the rest of our views on this conflict.
I'm very well aware of all the civilian deaths, and the seemingly endless line of Russian war crimes. Everyone (with one exception) in this thread is. If people were posting memes about those I'm sure people would object, and if they didn't I would.
At no point was that user's stance implied to stand for the rest of the thread. Not only that, the topic we're talking isn't even close to cover people's overall view on the conflict, it's about one small part of it. If you've actually read the comments over the last pages there's no reasonable way for you to interpret it like that, and you're a very reasonable person.
it's serving as entertainment in general terms. @calodo2003 made the point earlier that war has been entertainment since 1991 and the gulf war. he was right. that marked a new period in war as entertainment because of 24/7 coverage. it had been entertainment before that but it was never on that continuous scale. and this one is different because it's being driven by social media and weird memes which, at times, make the serious and heavy very blasé and light. i think it's aimed at the tiktok generation but who knows. i've personally never seen war marketed like this before outside of israel which seemed to pioneer it some years back.
on earlier topic, just a small snippet.
it's the "out-group" which also "consists of those who question the ideas of the propagandist" that i've frequently noticed in play throughout this thread. if you're questioning this or that or running against the grain, then you're not with us on every point and so must be russian or anti-west. it's the product of intense propaganda barrage. useful in ukraine which has to fight an actual war but destructive outside it.
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They are not random civilians. They are civilians entitled enough to go to an occupied region from a country that they are in a war that their government started. They knew were they were going, and they had little regard (bordering insult) for the Ukranian Crimean's that they don't want them there. I don't want them any harm but distress and kharma? all the way
Should I feel pity for the Russian woman that was mocking Ukranians on the streets in Vienna? not at all. I enjoyed when they cancelled their bookings? absolutely. Do I want any physical harm happen to her? not at all
But hey, I guess you have a holier than thou approach. Good for you
Yeah looking at the videos, I'm sure the kids know what the feck is going on and adults are all collectively guilty of russian imperialist policies. I'm also sure there were absolutely no locals in those videos, 100% of the people are evil russians who moved in 2014 to steal from ukranians and insult them.
You see, that's how generalizations work, and because I know jack shit about the individual circumstances of people, I prefer not to cheer their misfortune and distress. I would definitely not turn them into memes on social media.
I want russia to lose and be embarassed, but in a general way, with their military and political forces being pushed back to russia, but I take no joy in looking at individual civilians and turn their suffering (big or small, deserved or not) into twitter entertainment.
Even if I can recognize the karma that's falling on some people who might deserve it, and I don't feel any sympathy for them, my main point is that taking these individual incidents and use them to make memes, viral videos, and jokes turns war into something you'd follow online like a reality show. I don't like it and I find it distasteful.
I've donated to help ukraine, I've been in front of the russian embassy in lisbon with ukranian protesters, I am happy when I read news ukraine is gaining ground and my eyes water when I see the news and ukranian civilian suffering. But I won't dehumanize the other side and turn them into jokes and someone you can use to go viral with a funny clip on instagram.
If this is what passes for being holier than thou in this thread, than so be it.
Again, will you show us those posters or just continue inventing your stories and convince yourself it’s true? Just quote, shouldn’t be that hard unless you imagined it in your head.
I seriously believe this thread is in need of maintenance before we can carry on.
Really does. We are in the loop. Someone can't stop talking about Iraq and the US, someone creating their stories in the head about people celebrating the deaths of Russian civilians ("future civilians potentially dying because no one has died yet"), a few others who cannot handle seeing a random video which happens to show 5 seconds of some explosions of a military base in the distance while people are sunbathing basically on the frontlines of the biggest military conflict in decades, and then you have a few like me who are wasting their time here replying to those. Need a reset.
So be it
There was a poster who confirmed it was okay to celebrate dead Russia civilians briefly before his post
When no civilians died I think its really really difficult to draw parallels to the bombing of dresden in this case. Dresden was horrific. This wasn't not in anyway in terms of scale and essentially no warcrime in a conventional sense was committed.
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Any proof of this? Sure as hell it isn't there now, and unless it was deleted by mod in less than 15mins I doubt it happened at all. And even if there was 1 poster doing that, she was generalising way beyond it involving only 1 poster. And given zero Russian civilians died or injured or were even in any sort of danger, it is totally disingenuous comment in relation to the tweet by dove, that started the whole conversation. But that is what she does, we knew that already.
I was trying to illustrate the mechanism of cheering the military achievement vs cheering the consequences for civilians, and I wanted an example where the Russians are compared to the Nazis because people here are so incredibly quick to baselessly label people as Russian propagandists.
But yes, I of course agree that there's no comparison between this and Dresden in magnitude, and I guess the example might have been counterproductive. The attack itself was perfectly legitimate and in no way a war crime, I have no criticism of that. I also don't think Dresden was a war crime.
I don't think the fact that no civilians died makes this not about celebrating death, though. The meme is not just about this attack, it's about all the coming ones as well. They say that Russians shouldn't come to Crimea because of the danger, but the attack already happened so they're obviously not in danger from that anymore. The coming attacks will also be dangerous, and as (if, but that's the promise here) the likelyhood of civilian deaths increases, and it's all part of the meme.
This is also released at a time when Zelensky has started talking about how this war isn't won before Crimea is back in Ukrainian control, and when we're talking about a promised invasion (or re-invasion, or whatever else you want to call a large scale offensive against a huge geographical territory, once again to walk on egg shells I'm not saying that this would be illegitimate), then the number of civilian deaths will inevitably be substantial. In the Donbas conflict, thousands of civilians have died so far. This is of course partly a consequence of the fact that the conflict has lasted for eight years, but also because of the sad inevitable fact that civilians die in wars. That, for me personally, is not something to celebrate. It doesn't really matter to me if the victims are Ukrainian or evil corrupted monsters as the Russian apparently are with the whole orc thing, and it doesn't really matter to me if they're unfortunate victims of legitimate attacks.
Also, though, even though I find it distasteful and wrong, it's not really about that for me. People do things I find distasteful and wrong all the time, and of course in the context of this war it's pretty irrelevant. What gets me, or interests me, is how weird it is. And what it says about us as a society that we're watching this stuff as a form of entertainment. Several people in here are talking about this being holier than thou or high horsy or whatever, which makes sense because of how extremely defensive people are here, but it's really not about that. I'm not immune to it myself, not here or in general, and e.g. on the Syrian civil war I took it way too far, and I don't particularly care about the morality of some people I don't know on an internet forum.
I've taken up enough space, though. I'll let the future memification pass with no comment.
I think some are confusing 'orcs' with Russian civilians, that is not what the term is meant for, though I expect it has been used also for those Russian civilians that fervently support the war.
Post 34,206 I think.
No I agree that there is something distasteful about turning wars into entertainment, but I think in the case of this war its the least polemic war in my lifetime in terms of people in the west rooting for the good guys and cheering any demise of the bad guys. But in any case war always makes well a lot of people fecked up in the sense that a lot people have a inner warmonger inside them. My half-brother served in the 1st gulf War and he essentially doesn't even feel the west should supply arms to Ukraine for the fear of escalation into a nuclear war. Having witnessed his best friends being blown to bits I doubt veterans who have kept their moral compass intact can find any entertainment in war at all. I presume most of us havnt witnessed war 1st hand and find it easier to have a more lax approach to well for instance the meme of Crimea. In some ways it's to be expected on essentially a social media site with keyboard warriors including myself. But yeah I don't disagree with anything in the post I'm responding to.
I don't get how someone can get so upset by the music choice of a propaganda video that doesn't show any crimes or anything particularly upsetting in it that they are willing to write this many words in the subject. What does that say about us as a society?
Yeah, they say that people who have served in active wars and become prime ministers or presidents are far less likely to start wars or risk escalation. They’ve seen the human cost, they’ve probably met the wives and young children of soldiers who they knew and saw killed in graphic and horrible ways. But you’re right, it’s only a proportion. So many ex-soldiersgo into private armies (Wagner etc) after serving, so maybe they enjoy the violence, or maybe it’s the camaraderie and adrenaline. Difficult to pinpoint a single reason.
She has a time machine? That is after her comment.
I always thought Hectic would be the one to invent it.
I don't know what it says about society, I didn't know I was so upset, and I didn't know it was about the music choice.
I don't know what you mean. The poster replies its okay to celebrate the death of Russian civilians when it's going to happen.