Mikel Arteta | Lego Pep watch

dbs235 said:
The point is more Arsenal are not what United should be copying, if we want to return to our past status. We had some of the best players in the world in every position, the same way City and Liverpool do now. If we started signing Ramsdale, White, Tomiyasu, etc and finished 5th, that absolutely isn't classed as success. Even finishing 4th would have been a shocking season back then. Like Keane said after his rant when we played Spurs a few years ago, we're just talking about getting into the top 4 never mind winning trophies. 4th shouldn't be good enough. And yes I'm aware that in United's current state, 4th is the best we can manage. But that isn't good enough.
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It's good to aim high, but it's also kind of pointless if there is no plan to get there. That's not a dig at United, but rather acknowledging the reality Arteta came into. He's made constant incremental progress, and he's done so in a holistic fashion. They decided the profile of player they would target, developing their playstyle as the quality improved, and overhauling the squad.

This isn't me being reactionary, I've gotten plenty of shit in this thread over the last few years for saying Arteta was heading in the right direction. You say that 4th isn't good enough for United atm, but it absolutely is. Names are meaningless (and clouded a lot of people's assessment of Arteta's early work), ETH will need a lot of time. It might take him a few years to get into that position. It's all good pointing out Arsenal went unbeaten a couple of decades and United won trophies every season under Fergie, but that has no bearing on the current situation and the current quality.

I'm not saying United should copy Arsenal, United are a bigger club with more options and they're starting from a different scenario. They should take note that things can take time though, and progress won't always be reflected instantly on the league table. There are a bunch of strong sides in the league, and the top two are almost unfathomably consistent and have the two best managers in the world with years at their respective clubs.
 
Cascarino said:
It's good to aim high, but it's also kind of pointless if there is no plan to get there. That's not a dig at United, but rather acknowledging the reality Arteta came into. He's made constant incremental progress, and he's done so in a holistic fashion. They decided the profile of player they would target, developing their playstyle as the quality improved, and overhauling the squad.

This isn't me being reactionary, I've gotten plenty of shit in this thread over the last few years for saying Arteta was heading in the right direction. You say that 4th isn't good enough for United atm, but it absolutely is. Names are meaningless (and clouded a lot of people's assessment of Arteta's early work), ETH will need a lot of time. It might take him a few years to get into that position. It's all good pointing out Arsenal went unbeaten a couple of decades and United won trophies every season under Fergie, but that has no bearing on the current situation and the current quality.

I'm not saying United should copy Arsenal, United are a bigger club with more options and they're starting from a different scenario. They should take note that things can take time though, and progress won't always be reflected instantly on the league table. There are a bunch of strong sides in the league, and the top two are almost unfathomably consistent and have the two best managers in the world with years at their respective clubs.
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I don't think United can afford to spend that long out of the top 4 though. I know that's not just Arteta, it was Wenger and Emery too. Arsenal's last top 4 finish was 2016. Can you imagine us being out of the top 4 for that long? The rest of the big 6 never spend more than a season or 2 out of it. I know you have to be realistic but the progress is too slow. It's definitely harder now its a big 6 and not a big 4, 2 big clubs have to finish out of it every year.
 
dbs235 said:
I don't think United can afford to spend that long out of the top 4 though. I know that's not just Arteta, it was Wenger and Emery too. Arsenal's last top 4 finish was 2016. Can you imagine us being out of the top 4 for that long? The rest of the big 6 never spend more than a season or 2 out of it. I know you have to be realistic but the progress is too slow. It's definitely harder now its a big 6 and not a big 4, 2 big clubs have to finish out of it every year.
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Yes, I can imagine.
 
dbs235 said:
:lol: Yeah the way things are going, I agree mate. It's just sad to think that in the next 6 years we won't be able to finish ahead of both Spurs and Arsenal at least once.
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I have zero faith in this dogshit crop of players. They have given up already, don't see any desire in them to do well. And we're not doing anything to replace them anytime soon. We are benching a WC winner for the mighty Maguire. What more do you want to see?
 
dbs235 said:
I don't think United can afford to spend that long out of the top 4 though. I know that's not just Arteta, it was Wenger and Emery too. Arsenal's last top 4 finish was 2016. Can you imagine us being out of the top 4 for that long? The rest of the big 6 never spend more than a season or 2 out of it. I know you have to be realistic but the progress is too slow. It's definitely harder now its a big 6 and not a big 4, 2 big clubs have to finish out of it every year.
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I get what you're saying, but I definitely don't think it'd be as long a wait. Arteta has improved a lot as a manager, but he's still in his first job and he's made plenty of mistakes, ETH is a much more proven manager, and while he's come to a new league, I think once he's had the first season to settle in he'll be far more ready than Arteta was.
 
ayushreddevil9 said:
I have zero faith in this dogshit crop of players. They have given up already, don't see any desire in them to do well. And we're not doing anything to replace them anytime soon. We are benching a WC winner for the mighty Maguire. What more do you want to see?
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Varane has been no better when he's played. And I'll be honest I have absolutely no idea why. Same with Sancho, Pogba, etc. Why can't they play well for us? :lol:
 
I was very jealous of the Ben White and Odegaard signings.

If you are constantly scrapping the system you would like to build in favor of pragmatism, to get a few more results, then it will never materialize. I give Arsenal and Arteta for having resolve and patience. I saw a breakdown of how they play versus how they line up, flowing into different positions but always making sure they have a midfield “square” so they are never overrun there. It isnt just a clone of what Pep plays, so kudos to them there as well.

We will see how they match up against better teams… but I’m expecting them to do well this year. They have the look of a team that has belief.
 
We will get finish higher than Spurs from the 24/25 season.
Conte will leave Spurs soon. He left Juventus, Chelsea, Italy and Inter after only 2-3 years.
Also Kane and Son age is catching up soon.

Arsenal on the other hand will just become better and better. Youngest team In the league and if they resign Saliba, Saka and Martinelli with outgoing 2024 contracts, they can even become title contenders. Just need 2-3 more transfer windows .
 
Bluelion7 said:
I saw a breakdown of how they play versus how they line up, flowing into different positions but always making sure they have a midfield “square”
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Can you post the link?
 
Mikel’s plan looks to be really coming together now. I admit I was “Arteta out” when we bottled 4th last season, but am glad to have my slice of humble pie. He’s overhauled the team, made big decisions (eg new GK, got rid of star players who became toxic) and has developed great team spirit and style of play. The additions of the City boys have added that extra winning mentality to the squad as they know this league and what it takes to succeed, needing no adjustment period.
Yes our fixtures have been generous so far but after playing City and Chelsea in our first 3 games last season, we needed an easier start. I don’t take any games for granted and in recent years we’ve been thoroughly beaten by supposedly lesser teams too often. But we look very well drilled now and defensively much more solid as a unit, and I’m a bit surprised tbh. We really need to find a backup for Partey though, as I think he’s the screw that holds us together. Elneny is decent but we need to bring in another midfielder. We’re a bit light up top too.
 
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Man of Leisure said:
Big call on Aubameyang last season. And he nailed it.
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Yep, watching the doco series made me realise how well he really managed that situation. At the time I was on Auba’s “side”, but obviously I don’t know anything haha. He has made big decisions and I think has gotten them right so far. And just as importantly, he is being backed by the board. We actually seem to be a well run club and Edu as DoF has been brilliant.
 
ilrm said:
Can you post the link?
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I don’t have a link, it was on TV, but in the Arsenal thread someone posted most of the same thing I saw in much greater detail. It’s kind of a 3 2 2 3, where they focus on keeping midfield box even if another player slots into the square because a player shifted out of it.
 
Think we'll need 2 more players to be sure of top four. There's no backup to Partey/Xhaka, and with Pepe on the verge of leaving there's no one to compete with Saka for the right wing position.
 
ThatsGreat said:
Think we'll need 2 more players to be sure of top four. There's no backup to Partey/Xhaka, and with Pepe on the verge of leaving there's no one to compete with Saka for the right wing position.
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I don't think we can be sure of top 4, even with a couple of additions. Let's not get ahead of ourselves here, it's been a good start, but Spurs & Chelsea will still be there and there abouts, & Utd will improve as the season goes on.

3 games is nothing, remember Spurs were top after 3 games last season & we were bottom, & Spurs sacked their manager a few months later. Let's see how we cope with extra games when League Cup & Europa League starts.
 
GoonerBear said:
I don't think we can be sure of top 4, even with a couple of additions. Let's not get ahead of ourselves here, it's been a good start, but Spurs & Chelsea will still be there and there abouts, & Utd will improve as the season goes on.

3 games is nothing, remember Spurs were top after 3 games last season & we were bottom, & Spurs sacked their manager a few months later. Let's see how we cope with extra games when League Cup & Europa League starts.
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An injury to Jesus, Martinelli, Saka, Xhaka or Partey Arsenal will be in trouble. Arteta needs one more winger and midfielder this window.
 
I’m not saying I’m any different - but it’s great to have fans be wrong in their knowledge of football.

Arteta is doing well, at least in rebuilding Arsenal.
 
ThatsGreat said:
Think we'll need 2 more players to be sure of top four. There's no backup to Partey/Xhaka, and with Pepe on the verge of leaving there's no one to compete with Saka for the right wing position.
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I don't think it can be a sure regardless as it's going to be close between Chelsea Spurs and Arsenal regardless this year.

I'll admit that I'm surprised at how well Arsenal have started and the way his signings are coming access. Still a long way to go both this season and in general.
 
GoonerGirly said:
Mikel’s plan looks to be really coming together now. I admit I was “Arteta out” when we bottled 4th last season, but am glad to have my slice of humble pie. He’s overhauled the team, made big decisions (eg new GK, got rid of star players who became toxic) and has developed great team spirit and style of play. The additions of the City boys have added that extra winning mentality to the squad as they know this league and what it takes to succeed, needing no adjustment period.
Yes our fixtures have been generous so far but after playing City and Chelsea in our first 3 games last season, we needed an easier start. I don’t take any games for granted and in recent years we’ve been thoroughly beaten by supposedly lesser teams too often. But we look very well drilled now and defensively much more solid as a unit, and I’m a bit surprised tbh. We really need to find a backup for Partey though, as I think he’s the screw that holds us together. Elneny is decent but we need to bring in another midfielder. We’re a bit light up top too.
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It's been three games..

Still plenty of time for us to bottle 4th again this season.
 
Mogget said:
It's been three games..

Still plenty of time for us to bottle 4th again this season.
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Three games so far so good. He deserved the praise for what he did now and rightfully too. His negatives in the past. Will see how things go this season but his team looks good.
 
I remember United starting last season very well aswell.

If they're still doing this by the start of October then it might be worth taking a bit of notice of them then, still fully expect them to unravel as usual though.
 
Rajiztar said:
Three games so far so good. He deserved the praise for what he did now and rightfully too. His negatives in the past. Will see how things go this season but his team looks good.
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We'll see if we can maintain this form but to me it looks like a purple patch coinciding with a favourable fixture list.
 
Must be nice to be able to ignore rape allegations against one of your players and just start him like nothing ever happened too.
 
As to be expected, some incredibly over the top hype and praise for Arteta on here, on Twitter and especially in the media. Granted, no one can argue with the start they’ve made, 3 wins from 3.. it’s the perfect start but let’s not kid ourselves in to believing it’s been anything but a difficult start to the season fixture wise. Credit is due though, they are playing some good stuff and arteta is definitely getting a tune out of Jesus, a lot more so than what I thought he’d be capable of but right now he looks a great buy. The real test will come though once they start to play teams who expect to be up the top end of the table come May and when the European campaign kicks off.

All in all though, a good start.. but the talk of definite top four finish or even a challenge for the title is a little giddy for me.
 
Mogget said:
We'll see if we can maintain this form but to me it looks like a purple patch coinciding with a favourable fixture list.
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Again it's not his fault if schedule is kind to his team. He deserved all the praise for what his team did now. Nobody knows what future holds.

Football also a confident team sport. If you win then it add more confidence. Players willing to play for your ideas without a doubt. That's were pep klopp Conte won most games.

Will see how he manage expectations but no doubt he improved your game play lot.

Only problem in all games I found in your team was you are played extremely well in first thirty mins then energy go down. Then first 20 mins in second half then again look lethargic. Need to manage the game better. You couldn't able to set the tempo.
 
rajds89 said:
As to be expected, some incredibly over the top hype and praise for Arteta on here, on Twitter and especially in the media. Granted, no one can argue with the start they’ve made, 3 wins from 3.. it’s the perfect start but let’s not kid ourselves in to believing it’s been anything but a difficult start to the season fixture wise. Credit is due though, they are playing some good stuff and arteta is definitely getting a tune out of Jesus, a lot more so than what I thought he’d be capable of but right now he looks a great buy. The real test will come though once they start to play teams who expect to be up the top end of the table come May and when the European campaign kicks off.

All in all though, a good start.. but the talk of definite top four finish or even a challenge for the title is a little giddy for me.
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To be fair, people had no problem criticising Arteta and Arsenal when they had a terrible start last season. We can’t go all in on the banter and criticism when it’s going bad and then say ‘let’s pump the brakes on the praise’ when it’s going well.
 
WeePat said:
To be fair, people had no problem criticising Arteta and Arsenal when they had a terrible start last season. We can’t go all in on the banter and criticism when it’s going bad and then say ‘let’s pump the brakes on the praise’ when it’s going well.
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Exactly. The same people who say we have an easy fixture list now, are the same people who couldn't care less at the start of last season when we had 3 very tough games.
 
VorZakone said:
Pretty sure he's referring to Arsenal.
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I think the inference is that United’s top scorer last season moved to the club with a rape allegation hanging over him. In fact, the intention to appeal against the dismissal of the lawsuit against him was announced yesterday. All of this follows an out of court settlement for the incident.

Going back a decade, incredibly talented Dutch striker was top scorer for both of our clubs while under allegation for the same crime.

And Spurs new midfield enforcer, who many Arsenal fans wanted us to sign, was actually charged with sexual assault - though the charges have now been dropped. Charges are a legal stage beyond arrest.

The point being, it’s difficult to point fingers at any club without being hypocritical. Clubs will generally use their best players under the presumption of innocence. That makes me uncomfortable in a lot of cases, including the current one for Arsenal, but there could be legal implications for a club that suspends a player that is yet to be charged with a crime.

An obvious exception would be when audio/visual evidence of said crime has been released. It would be difficult for the player to take legal action against his club under those circumstances, regardless of the outcome.
 
I don't think he's a top class manager but he has carried out a fantastic rebuild and has made a lot of big calls and stuck to his beliefs. Even if he gets sacked, he will leave a much better squad than the one he inherited
 
Daydreamer said:
I think the inference is that United’s top scorer last season moved to the club with a rape allegation hanging over him. In fact, the intention to appeal against the dismissal of the lawsuit against him was announced yesterday. All of this follows an out of court settlement for the incident.

Going back a decade, incredibly talented Dutch striker was top scorer for both of our clubs while under allegation for the same crime.

And Spurs new midfield enforcer, who many Arsenal fans wanted us to sign, was actually charged with sexual assault - though the charges have now been dropped. Charges are a legal stage beyond arrest.

The point being, it’s difficult to point fingers at any club without being hypocritical. Clubs will generally use their best players under the presumption of innocence. That makes me uncomfortable in a lot of cases, including the current one for Arsenal, but there could be legal implications for a club that suspends a player that is yet to be charged with a crime.

An obvious exception would be when audio/visual evidence of said crime has been released. It would be difficult for the player to take legal action against his club under those circumstances, regardless of the outcome.
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Not really comparable to this situation, are those? Your player was literally accused of rape 3 times this summer and the club acted like nothing happened. We've literally just binned a seemingly generational talent(rightly so) due to apparent domestic violence issues. As long as you're winning games I suppose...
 
Conor said:
Not really comparable to this situation, are those? Your player was literally accused of rape 3 times this summer and the club acted like nothing happened. We've literally just binned a seemingly generational talent(rightly so) due to apparent domestic violence issues. As long as you're winning games I suppose...
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Spot on there pal, and there was exactly the same amount of cast iron evidence in both cases...

You ever thought of becoming a detective?

Lets keep this to football eh?
 
Conor said:
Not really comparable to this situation, are those? Your player was literally accused of rape 3 times this summer and the club acted like nothing happened. We've literally just binned a seemingly generational talent(rightly so) due to apparent domestic violence issues. As long as you're winning games I suppose...
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I don’t see what’s so different about the situations. They are literally all accusations about rape / sexual assault. Including the one you’ve described as “domestic violence”. That was dealt with differently (which I applaud btw) but any club would have done the same once the audio evidence of the alleged crime as it was taking place got released.
 
Daydreamer said:
I don’t see what’s so different about the situations. They are literally all accusations about rape / sexual assault. Including the one you’ve described as “domestic violence”. That was dealt with differently (which I applaud btw) but any club would have done the same once the audio evidence of the alleged crime as it was taking place got released.
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You don't see a difference in something that happened years ago when the player had nothing to do with the club, which has already gone through extensive legal proceedings, and something that happened this summer while your player was on holidays, and he's just strolled back into the team as if nothing has happened, because your backups are crap?
 
I honestly saw Arteta as a joke untill All or Nothing. I went into it; like most, expecting to see a Brent like figure...

I genuinely respect the bloke now and can see why Arsenal back him.

Of course, some of his techniques are memes, but the players clearly love him. He's made massive decisions and ultimately, he's chosen to do a proper rebuild with young players instead of short term fixes.
 
Man of Leisure said:
Big call on Aubameyang last season. And he nailed it.
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Nah, we missed out on top 4 and couldn't score a goal to save our lives because Laca's form went in the toilet, meanwhile Auba went on to score a lot of goals for Barcelona. Quite possible that we would have finished in the top 4 if he had stayed.

He nailed nothing.
 
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