Shamima Begum, IS teen wants to come back to the UK

Not sure this development in the story is as dramatic or interesting as the headlines are making out. Everyone knows ISIS were operating smuggling routes from Istanbul to Syria. The fact that some of the smugglers were passing on information to Western intelligence/embassies is hardly surprising either.
 
Carolina Red said:
I don’t buy that one bit.

“Ms Begum said she made the choice to go to Syria and could make her own decisions, despite being only 15 at the time. She said she was partly inspired by videos of fighters beheading hostages and also by videos showing "the good life" under IS.
She watched videos of the murders of British hostages, she told the BBC, but said she did not know the names of any of the victims.”
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-47276572
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What ages do you teach again? How much capacity do you think a 15 year old has to make such a life changing decision, without the knowledge of their parents?
 
maniak said:
I really don't understand this argument.
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No, I doubt many people do.

My point was her age at the time allowed her (in my opinion) some adolescent 'freedom to be wrong', to have made the wrong choice, to be mistaken and probably misled etc. However with her (relative) maturity/and experiences she has had, should come genuine regret. All the more important because she would be about to enter UK society once more, to take her place in that society, one she jeopardized when she was still basically a child. The Home Office has to be sure she is no longer a danger to herself, or anyone else.

If her involvement with Isis had taken place in this country she would probably (but not necessarily) have been imprisoned here that is true, but she might also have faced deportation there after.
It is not being imprisoned that is the issue, its being free to enter a society she once shunned!
 
ThierryFabregas said:
If a 15yo was groomed into a gang that collectively killed people they would be tried for multiple murders. That's what she's done, in aiding and abetting a genocide, she's not merely had sex with someone
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Who's saying she shouldn't stand trial? Whatever involvement she had should surely be investigated.
 
Maticmaker said:
No, I doubt many people do.

My point was her age at the time allowed her (in my opinion) some adolescent 'freedom to be wrong', to have made the wrong choice, to be mistaken and probably misled etc. However with her (relative) maturity/and experiences she has had, should come genuine regret. All the more important because she would be about to enter UK society once more, to take her place in that society, one she jeopardized when she was still basically a child. The Home Office has to be sure she is no longer a danger to herself, or anyone else.

If her involvement with Isis had taken place in this country she would probably (but not necessarily) have been imprisoned here that is true, but she might also have faced deportation there after.
It is not being imprisoned that is the issue, its being free to enter a society she once shunned!
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I guess I'll keep going without understanding.

Do people in UK prisons have to take a "are you sorry for what you did test" before being released?
 
maniak said:
I guess I'll keep going without understanding.

Do people in UK prisons have to take a "are you sorry for what you did test" before being released?
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I mean when someone who has committed a serious crime is in their parole window, showing contrition generally helps their case for release.
 
That'sHernandez said:
I mean when someone who has committed a serious crime is in their parole window, showing contrition generally helps their case for release.
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Not talking about parole. Let's say a guy gets 20 years in jail. After 20 years he goes free, right? Does it matter if he's sorry?
 
treat her the same as any other 15 year old kid and have her in and out of correctional facilities for the rest of her life, with her only being a blight on whatever community she is shoved into, in between bouts in the slammer. it’s a proven system that just plain works.
 
maniak said:
I guess I'll keep going without understanding.

Do people in UK prisons have to take a "are you sorry for what you did test" before being released?
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I think its part of the Parole process for prisoners wanting 'early release' to say they are sorry. In this case however it would be in terms of 'early admittance' rather than release, but the principle is the same.
 
Maticmaker said:
I think its part of the Parole process for prisoners wanting 'early release' to say they are sorry. In this case however it would be in terms of 'early admittance' rather than release, but the principle is the same.
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Can you explain the last part, I didn't understand it.
 
maniak said:
Not talking about parole. Let's say a guy gets 20 years in jail. After 20 years he goes free, right? Does it matter if he's sorry?
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Well no because his time's up. There will be parole windows after x amount of time though and it'd feature though.
 
Carolina Red said:
I don’t buy that one bit.

“Ms Begum said she made the choice to go to Syria and could make her own decisions, despite being only 15 at the time. She said she was partly inspired by videos of fighters beheading hostages and also by videos showing "the good life" under IS.
She watched videos of the murders of British hostages, she told the BBC, but said she did not know the names of any of the victims.”
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-47276572
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That’s how grooming works. In sex cases, they’re often given alcohol, cigarettes, taken to parties, shown what the ‘good life’ is. It’s a glamourised but fake ideal. In this case, she was undoubtedly influence by the material/propaganda ISIS put out. And furthermore, I think she was in contact with someone already out there who was highlighting the good life.

She should be tried, no doubt, but as a UK citizen. Rendering her stateless just means you create a problem for a different country.
 
That'sHernandez said:
Well no because his time's up. There will be parole windows after x amount of time though and it'd feature though.
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OK, that was my point then, it's a strange argument. Why does it matter if this woman is sorry or not? Just follow the law like you do for everyone else.
 
That'sHernandez said:
Sure but if they've been groomed into thinking that actually ISIS isn't bad and they would have a great life there?
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Yeah, that’s so obvious by the beheading videos she was watching.

She shouldn’t get a free pass for “grooming” for the same reason a German teen shouldn’t get a free pass for “grooming” for joining the SS. Some things are so clearly wrong that it doesn’t take a 40 year old philosophy professor the figure it out.
 
maniak said:
Can you explain the last part, I didn't understand it.
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She is seeking admission, in this case into the UK, where as prisoners are seeking release out from Prison

In both cases some show of regret/sorrow for their actions is required.

Shamima Begum is (or would be) I suspect be asked to make the same declaration, in order to pass among the UK public once again, it might prove a better option for her than going to prison in the first place?
 
Carolina Red said:
Yeah, that’s so obvious by the beheading videos she was watching.

She shouldn’t get a free pass for “grooming” for the same reason a German teen shouldn’t get a free pass for “grooming” for joining the SS. Some things are so clearly wrong that it doesn’t take a 40 year old philosophy professor the figure it out.
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No one has mentioned her getting a free pass for anything. But some context needs to apply to her situation, just as it would if it was to play out in court.

Again, let me reiterate, no one is condoning any action she has taken. She was 15 at the time. There’s definitely an element of grooming and trafficking here which doesn’t make it an open and shut case at all. Does that mean she should get a free pass? Not at all.
 
Maticmaker said:
She is seeking admission, in this case into the UK, where as prisoners are seeking release out from Prison

In both cases some show of regret/sorrow for their actions is required.

Shamima Begum is (or would be) I suspect be asked to make the same declaration, in order to pass among the UK public once again, it might prove a better option for her than going to prison in the first place?
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OK, but the problem is exactly that, she only needs permission because you decided to strip away her citizenship. Or do other british alleged criminals also need permission to enter the UK to stand trial?
 
maniak said:
OK, but the problem is exactly that, she only needs permission because you decided to strip away her citizenship. Or do other british alleged criminals also need permission to enter the UK to stand trial?
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I don't think they are usually (voluntarily anyway) seeking permission to 'stand trial', quite the opposite their legal teams try to keep them out of the UK jurisdiction.
I may be wrong on this but Ms Begum I believe just wants to come back to her family in the UK, I don't think she is volunteering to stand trial, but I assume she accepts that might be a possible outcome if she is granted leave to return.
 
Maticmaker said:
I don't think they are usually (voluntarily anyway) seeking permission to 'stand trial', quite the opposite their legal teams try to keep them out of the UK jurisdiction.
I may be wrong on this but Ms Begum I believe just wants to come back to her family in the UK, I don't think she is volunteering to stand trial, but I assume she accepts that might be a possible outcome if she is granted leave to return.
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So it seems this move to remove her citizenship just created extra legal problems.

I mean, it will get the desired outcome eventually, which is her ending up dead somewhere, but that's hardly justice.
 
ThierryFabregas said:
I actually do prefer having their citizenship revoked after they chose instead to be citizens of a Nazi state so A) the taxpayer doesn't pay for them B) They're not a danger of indoctorinating others British citizens their death cult.
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Making people stateless is a pretty extreme thing to do, but lucky for you extremists are in charge right now.
 
The Corinthian said:
No one has mentioned her getting a free pass for anything. But some context needs to apply to her situation, just as it would if it was to play out in court.

Again, let me reiterate, no one is condoning any action she has taken. She was 15 at the time. There’s definitely an element of grooming and trafficking here which doesn’t make it an open and shut case at all. Does that mean she should get a free pass? Not at all.
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By free pass, I mean allowing her back into the UK.

Were she American, there's absolutely no way I'd want her back in the States.
 
Carolina Red said:
By free pass, I mean allowing her back into the UK.

Were she American, there's absolutely no way I'd want her back in the States.
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While I completly agree I also don't think leaving them in some 3rd world country without the resources to deal with them is the solution either. There's plenty of people in supermax prisons serving life without parole for all sorts of different RICO charges (I'd argue most organisations they were part of were less evil and caused less pain than ISIS).

We should let them back and never let them out again. (By we I mean all western countries who've had feck ups travelling to join them).
 
Carolina Red said:
Yeah, that’s so obvious by the beheading videos she was watching.

She shouldn’t get a free pass for “grooming” for the same reason a German teen shouldn’t get a free pass for “grooming” for joining the SS. Some things are so clearly wrong that it doesn’t take a 40 year old philosophy professor the figure it out.
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Just out of interest, what's your opinion on American teenagers who get caught up in white supremacism/neo-nazism? Do you have this same 'one-strike and you're out' energy for them?
 
Carolina Red said:
By free pass, I mean allowing her back into the UK.

Were she American, there's absolutely no way I'd want her back in the States.
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She's British and our problem. To me making her stateless was the UK washing its hands of its responsibilities and dumping them on Syria.
She should be tried and jailed in the UK.
 
Carolina Red said:
By free pass, I mean allowing her back into the UK.

Were she American, there's absolutely no way I'd want her back in the States.
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so just wash your hands of her and force someone else to deal with her? great.

if i recall correctly the only way UK was able to remove her citizenship in the first place was because she has a right to Bangladeshi citizenship, but why should they have to deal with her? She wasn't born there and has never lived there. it was a pathetic decision by the UK government. bring her back and put her on trial. simple.
 
Mogget said:
Just out of interest, what's your opinion on American teenagers who get caught up in white supremacism/neo-nazism? Do you have this same 'one-strike and you're out' energy for them?
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They're not leaving the country for us to keep them out.

I'd love it if they did.
 
Abizzz said:
While I completly agree I also don't think leaving them in some 3rd world country without the resources to deal with them is the solution either. There's plenty of people in supermax prisons serving life without parole for all sorts of different RICO charges (I'd argue most organisations they were part of were less evil and caused less pain than ISIS).

We should let them back and never let them out again. (By we I mean all western countries who've had feck ups travelling to join them).
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There's always the option of making a supermax run by the UK government that's not "in in" the UK just for these types of cases.

That didn't go over well when we did it though.
Jippy said:
She's British and our problem. To me making her stateless was the UK washing its hands of its responsibilities and dumping them on Syria.
She should be tried and jailed in the UK.
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That's why I said "Were she American". Good luck with dealing with her.
stepic said:
bring her back and put her on trial. simple.
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And then what?
 
Carolina Red said:
They're not leaving the country for us to keep them out.

I'd love it if they did.
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Shouldn't the US take responsibility for their shitty citizens? Why would another country have to deal with america's nazis?
 
there should also be a public inquest regarding the extent to which we have been complicit in fostering fundamentalist movements abroad and especially if not exclusively insofar as it involves the use of children. that is, that british state, among others, is here more guilty than any individual whose citizenship they question.
 
We should let them back and never let them out again. (By we I mean all western countries who've had feck ups travelling to join them).
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we haven't just had people travelling to join, we've actively aided in the transfer of such people from one place to another. that's the biggest crime here. we've supported al qaeda and its various offshoots in syria. do people know this? or do they ignore it? that the weapons we pay for end up in such hands, as a matter of intent?

called dirty wars for various reasons, this is but one.

this girl was a child. what's the government's and the spooks' excuses?
 
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