You sure about that? There are a couple of murderers from where I grew up and tbh everyone knew they were bad eggs. Their brains are just seemed to be wired differently. Same upbringing as their siblings but you couldn’t reason with those guys.
Shamima Begum, IS teen wants to come back to the UK
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
No it doesn't sound like CSE because there was zero manipulation and she was asking for the people there to find her a partner. It sounds like she literally went there looking for a heroic Jihadi John that she couldn't find in England.
Up to a couple hundert women of from western nations joined ISIS during their insurgency. Its a small number, but Shamima Begum and her two friends weren't the only cases. Not all of these women were children/teenager either. Any statement that I have come across from her sounded like she was 100% convinced by ISIS ideology. The only thing she was probably naiv and mislead about is ISIS's chances to win and govern a territory. Moving illegally to a warzone to join an extremely brutal insurgency must be difficult especially for a teenager. This is not a snap decision without alternatives. It needs considerable dedication and conviction. I have no idea how anyone can get convinced by ISIS ideas, but a tiny percentage of people were. I am not sure that the process is all that different just because she was a 15 year old teenager.
On a slightly lighter note, I always have to think about Chapelle's "how old is 15 really?" bit. Its fitting.
On a slightly lighter note, I always have to think about Chapelle's "how old is 15 really?" bit. Its fitting.
IS is a cult.
A person joining a cult is as brainwashed as can be. It genuinely takes years to 'unlearn' the shit that's embedded your brain.
And again, a 15 year old brain is a lot more immature than an 18 year old brain, despite being in adolescence.
Plenty of people who weren't teenagers joined them in similar fashion. How do you explain that?
ISIS didn't try to hide their extreme level of violence against people of different faiths, aid workers and journalists. They were righteous about it and this uncompromising "consistency" was a selling point. Thats unusual even for extremists groups.15 year olds understood perfectly well what ISIS was doing. They were probably naive about what it means to live in a warzone, but there is little evidence that she or people like her didn't understand what kind of society ISIS wanted to create. Saying she was brainwashed doesn't really explain a lot.
I struggle a bit with understanding why the main focus is how culpable or of sound mind she was. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that it's uninteresting, and there's certainly parallells to how e.g. white supremacists online are targeting impressionable and often socially isolated young boys, but surely the main thing here is what responsibility a state has for its citizens.
It is, or at least was, pretty widely considered important rights both not to be made stateless and to get a fair trial, yet that's seemingly thrown out of the window. The trial bit is a bit murky because she's not un UK soil and it can be debated how much responsibility the UK has in actively bringing her home, but to deny her entry if she gets her on her own and even remove her citizenship when it's the only one she has is ... not unprecedented on a global scale but at minimum a serious breach of internationally accepted norms. If we only extend rights to citizens if we think they've behaved acceptably then they're not rights at all.
This isn't really directed at you, just a general observation.
I guess what you're saying here is that people who are groomed should know better.
Honestly, what your saying is so fecking despicable it makes me sick.
People of all ages join cults. It’s not a young person thing.
15 year olds don’t understand shit. That’s why they’re unable to do most things until they’re 18 year old. Look how many 15 year olds hurl the worst abuse online to celebrities. Do you think they understand the impact of their actions? That age is all about thinking you know everything (when you don’t) and thinking you know what’s best for you (when you don’t). It’s why they’re rebellious, impulsive, and genuinely don’t understand the consequences fully.
She, a gullible 15 year old, was definitely sold a story over some time, - whether that is brainwashing or not, I don’t know enough to say. But let’s stop this narrative that 15 year olds know what they’re doing and are fully cognisant of the consequences of their actions.
I’ll reiterate the point I’ve made from the start - she should be held accountable for her actions, and by that she should be given a trial in the UK. Rendering her stateless is an infringement of her human rights, and it’s a cowardly response from the Home Office.
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Literally every prison is filled with people who were brought into a life of crime by older people from a young age. How come this terrorist is the one we should make an exception for?
(And yes she went there to terrorize the population with the organization that she joined)
(And yes she went there to terrorize the population with the organization that she joined)
Of course. But bear in mind the age of consent in Syria is 15, when one is deemed able to choose who and when to have sex with, and who to marry.
Might not be 'nice' to those of other cultures, but in terms of sex she was not considered a child in Syria, nor is any other girl of that age now.
She is the exception. She's been stripped of her nationality and is being refused a fair trial.
Fortunately most posters here agree that the UK should take her back and deal with her. Its worth mentioning that this is extremely difficult and courts are not properly equipped to handle cases like that. Still, there are no good alternatives. One of the most important goals should be to help the victims of ISIS to get some semblance of justice. When I am talking about victims I am not including Shamima Begum, but the people in Syria and Iraq who were killed, abused, enslaved and robbed by ISIS regardless of their religion, ethnicity, gender or any other characteristic. Foreigners joining ISIS are particularly galling, because they exacerbate a horrible situation for the population of these countries. Our opinions about the mental capacities of 15 year olds and her actions differ too much to find common ground.
Formal justice for ISIS perpetrators is going to be difficult, because individual accountability is more or less impossible. The British prosecution is hardly going to find witnesses in Syria, who could testify. One consequences of this is that her victims are even less seen and have no voice at at all to tell their story. They won't have their day in court even if the justice system prosecutes her. Considering how flawed the situation is, painting voluntary ISIS members as victims is imo an insult to the people who suffered under ISIS.
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You either know that's not what I said or that's all you could understand from that post which is sad either way.
What makes me even sadder is the amount of people from the Muslim community in the UK that are so tolerant and "naive" about this whole Shamima Begum. It doesn't surprise me. UK has some some of the most extremist mindset Muslims I've met. Total contrast from North American Muslim immigrants.
This girl was getting off to beheading videos, unapologetic about the Manchester bombings and rape of yazidi women. You don't just stumble into a terrorist org like that.
She was not kidnapped. She went voluntary. Your comparisons of grooming for sex holds no value here
The UK has stricter rules than most other nations on punishing viewpoints, so she'll be pretty likely to get judicial punishent even if no victims can be located (if they exist). Alex Davies got sentenced to 8.5 years for membership in National Action, and is I believe just one out of about 20 convicted people from that single group. While they as a group actually did some stuff, like stockpiling weapons and going on marches that turned violent, I'm pretty certain most of them were convicted for membership rather than any specific action or incident.
Hardly an exception in the wider world. If you go to some 3rd world country to further your criminal enterprise you can't expect a first world trial there either. Actually you need to have money to have a "fair trial" in most western countries too...
Which third world countries make people stateless?
They don't do it as overtly but they do "loose documentation" and other shenaningans. It's the sort of thing that defines disfunctional countries.
However that wasn't what I wrote. I wrote that you can't go to a third world country and expect to bring your judiciary with you.
So you're okay with Britain operating like a 3rd world country?
Also, this is not loose documentation, this is actively stripping her of her citizenship, pretty big difference.
It's not what you wrote, but it's what you responded to. She's not just being denied a fair trial, she's being stripped of her nationality. And the criticism isn't that the UK isn't bringing its judiciary to Syria, or even that the UK isn't actively trying to bring her back to face its judiciary there, but that the UK is actively keeping her out. And making her stateless. This is what the whole case is about, so I'm very confused about why you've started comparing the UK to third world countries. And even if we overlook all this, then what you said was
Do you mean to say that "we" referred to Syria and Syrian prisons rather than the UK and UK prisons?
Syria is also not a third world country, unless you're using it in the original NATO vs Warsaw pact sense in which case maybe but that then doesn't say much. That's another matter, though.
I fully agree with you, that the UK should take her back and prosecute her. Not doing so violates core values of western societies and exacerbates the problem of a lack of justice for the victims of ISIS. Its also a slippery slope for further infringements of civil rights. Additionally forcing foreign counties, who are already struggling, to deal with these people doesn't sit well with me either. Overall there are many reasons to be angry about the UK government.
I don't know UK laws in this regard, but what you are describing highlights one of my concerns. She might be prosecuted and go to jail, but the local victims won't be part of this process.
I have posted about 20 times in this very thread that i'm in favour of bringing her back and putting her on trial (and the same for all other western feckwits that went there).
21 times now.
However not because of her. She doesn't deserve shit anymore. She went out of her way to support genocide. I don't care what happens to here. It's the countries and communities now saddled with these feckwits that deserve better than us acting like we have nothing to do with it.
Congratulations, you're a consistently shocking poster, regardless of topic. It's exciting to finally have someone on my ignore list.
Where is jihad jack nowadays?
I know the UK revoked his citizenship too. I can't find anything on him, the only stuff is from 2020-ish. Seems like he's linked to Canada.
I know the UK revoked his citizenship too. I can't find anything on him, the only stuff is from 2020-ish. Seems like he's linked to Canada.
Exactly. Almost every terrorist got radicalized or brainwashed at a young age and they all get punished and thrown out of the society for the acts they have committed. Why is this case being treated differently?
Is it? Almost every time a young terrorist or terrorist sympathizer is in the media spotlight there's a lot of focus on what lead up to it and how it happened: social circles, trips abroad, Internet activity, etc. After Philip Manshaug murdered his adoptive sister and attacked a mosque in an attempt to start a race war there were endless talk and written articles about his life. His changing personality, reaction from his friends, both during and after the fact, his social isolation, his Internet activity.
Manshaug got a trial and is in prison now. He is still a Norwegian citizen. We've also had several so-called "IS brides", as far as I know they're still Norwegian citizens.
I thought he was killed a couple of years ago?
I can poll several classrooms full of them to see if they think joining ISIS is a good idea if you want.
Edit: currently at a 100% hit rate on "she's an idiot, don't let her back in" among all 15 year olds polled
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Yeah it's so shocking to suggest a terrorist should not be compared to someone who got groomed ffs
That's odd. You'd think he'd have surfaced or we would know where he is. He was a headline figure for a long time.
For some reason I thought I remembered reports that he was killed when we/the US dropped bombs on a target during the fighting.
EDIT: I'm thinking of his mate John
a quick Google says Jack was being detained for 18 months in 2019. I'd be surprised if he's still alive to be honest. Either that or he's turned informant/working undercover as a mole somewhere.He's still in prison in Syria, as far as I can see. Canada doesn't want him, although he happens to have Canadian citizenship too.
Yes, because no 15 year old would like to their teacher about what they really think.
I've now asked 4 classes, only 1 of them mine. Of that group, only 1 student has said anything other than "she's an idiot, don't send her back" and that person said "okay, I can see how a 15 year old could do that, even if I wouldn't... but they'd have to be the dumbest person in the school".
Maybe you should rethink your opinion of 15 year olds.
I doubt there is many people who joined ISIS who has more pr. than Shamina. Plenty of articles of how she was led astray and tv inputs about it. I agree though, she should have stayed a UK citizen, i'm not sure whether it's the case that she's joined a death cult abroad rather than join at home that's made the difference.
There is doing stupid things when you are 15 and then there is joining a world wide famous terrorist organisation which is something you could hardly miss in the UK.
https://www.spiked-online.com/2022/08/31/shamima-begum-is-a-villain-not-a-victim/
You are surely aware that this is the point of grooming gangs!?! Make the minor dependant on you, build an unhealthy relationship with them, so when you ask them to go to X or Y play they do so ‘voluntary’ as you say.
If she’d been groomed by a teacher and they ran off to France, police forces in UK and France would be working to return them, prosecute him and rescue her.
The only difference here is context, the type of context being quite obvious.
Being a victim of rape in your example and joining ISIS in Shamima's case?
I’d offer the example where a white male who joined a white nationalist terror group was (originally) sentenced to ‘reading the classics’, then later given a prison sentence. At no point was it suggested that he have his citizenship revoked.
Three guesses to the difference between that white male in his twenties, and Begum, who was Groomed as a minor.
I’d also highlight the children that she’s lost, I believe two of whom were conceived via statutory rape…or doesn’t that count for her?
Oh no doubt. Some actions are inexcusable, 15 years old or not. It isn't hard to tell right from wrong when one side is committing a genocide.