The rules don't say that.
Edit: and with all the teams having accounting teams how do you breach the limit and it not be deliberate?
F1 2022 Season
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Edit: and with all the teams having accounting teams how do you breach the limit and it not be deliberate?
Ok flower, I'm not trying to hook anyone, in my opinion you're overly emotional about a financial topic, go you. I'm not naive enough to assume all sporting teams work on a 100% moral code.
Oh sorry true. I do think that if they don't drop them points every other team needs to make it know that they will not stick to the cap in future.
Bingo. In football you know a tactical foul will earn you a yellow, so when you get a yellow that's to be expected. People here are expecting a 7 match ban.
I would be surprised if Aston Martin's punishment is any more than a £25k fine, Williams were in procedural breach this year and were fined by that amount if any precedent is used in this case.
And you've already been told, the rules don't say that.
I agree. If you stay with in the cap you only deserve a fine.
There needs to be a quick follow up of transparency though I appreciate they need to avoid a potential legal battle and decide punishment. The FIA needs to publish a report as this only creates more speculation.
The whole mess just got messier and fuels more speculations.
The adjudication panels guidance in determining penalties does say that. They have to consider aggravating factors. Obviously it wont be relevant in this case anyway because Red Bull and the FIA will agree a settlement for a fine and a cost cap reduction like everyone expects.
As for how you accidentally breach the limit, easily. If you interpret something as not counting to the cost cap, and the FIA disagree. Since the FIA said in their statement that they havent had to open any investigations, that means whatever Red Bull overspent on was presented in black and white, and it's all a matter of interpreting what should and should not count as expenses.
Then they might as well scrap it as they will just break it again next year. If you can afford to pay the fine then you can break the cap.
No no, the fine will be accompanied by a statement from the FIA saying now that its been clarified and everyone should be clear, next time it will be points.
It's believed that Red Bull have broke it again this year so that wont happen.
The fine will be accompanied by a statement from the FIA saying now that its been clarified, but its too late for this year so they'll use the same punishments whilst next year everyone should be clear, so from then on it will be points.
Yeah that's more like it.
This thread is so toxic.
I'll send it over to them now.
Because everyone else was trying to keep to the budget
Yes
Minor is such a bad word to use for this. Any over spend could be worth tenths a lap. Could be difference between being on pole or 2nd or 3rd on the grid. An extra £300,000 spend by Mercedes last year would have probably secured the title before abu dhabi. But they adhered to the cost cap and didnt spend the money and RedBull did spend the money.
Hope there is sufficient punishment. Cheating is cheating after all, no matter how you dress it up.
Binotto: "$5m is about half a second, $1-2m is 0.1-0.2secs, which can be the difference between second on the grid to pole."
Less anyone think "minor" breach is nothing important. FIA classifies minor as under $7.25mil. Basically a WHOLE season worth of car development.
Less anyone think "minor" breach is nothing important. FIA classifies minor as under $7.25mil. Basically a WHOLE season worth of car development.
The idea that a breach of cost cap is punishable by a fine is ludicrous.
Not really, it depends on the detail and the punishment guidelines are pre-agreed for the different severity. That’s why they need to be more transparent so we know how much and why.
Its a joke the integrity of the very sport is in question yet again.
Its nothing against max but human error (masi) and financial fraud won him his 1st wdc.
and second. and i’d wager any future titles, even if he moves teams.
Last season gets more and more dodgy with every passing minute.
Any significant breach needs to be punished appropriately but playing devil’s advocate for 2022, if you gave Merc and Ferrari a few million extra for this season they still wouldn’t have beat RB - it wouldn’t save them from the mistakes or a flawed concept.
I hope Binotto and Toto don’t use it as an excuse for the 2022 season in what will be a talking point for a while. Max finished so far ahead yesterday in a sprint race it was ridiculous almost a second for every minute.
My post had nothing to do with the guidelines. Principally, a fine to punish overspending is farcical.
Correct but it was because a Technical Directive fecked Ferrari's tire wear in the middle of the season. I think it's crazy how the FIA have gone from being called the "Ferrari International Association" to a point where it seems that Red Bull can do whatever they want there!
Hope serious action is taken, as people lost their jobs over the cost cap. If one team went over, other's livelihoods were affected. It isn't just about finishing first.
The fact of the matter is that Red Bull cheated to win the title last season no matter what the FIA decide.
Energy Drink addiction provides deep pockets.
There has to be leeway for minor amounts. In any business I’ve worked in there is always a few % allowed on reconciling spend with finance. What if you’re £1K or £100K or £1m over compared to £5m - £10m. The former is nothing when you’re spending £150m in overlapping seasons or whatever the cap is. That’s why I referenced the guidelines as I’m sure the team will have had input to sign-off.
A fine can also reduce future cap amounts and reduce any minor discrepancies.
Obviously this is irrelevant if RB have gone way over then a fine isn’t good enough or if it definitely impacted the championship.
Sickening. The sport had shag all integrity left after last year and the fact that you could bet your bottom dollar on Red Bull getting away with blatantly cheating is even worse.
Fining a team for overspending is not a punishment in my eyes.
Fining a team for overspending is not a punishment in my eyes.
All the teams agreed that fines and cost cap reductions were suitable punishments for minor cost cap breaches.
All hail Lewis Hamilton 8 times world champion. Feck the FIA and Red Bull.
I still think you’re missing my point; albeit I’m not really articulating it. I don’t really care who the team is or what the guidelines say, in my view a team who breaches a cap can’t be fined because by definition by overspending the issue isn’t financial capability.
Of course there has to be a threshold for different “levels” of breach. Absolutely. And there’s enough subjectivity in accounting you should have this concept of identifying minor and more deliberate infringements.
My point though the concept of a fine in itself is a flawed methodology. Punishments should actually hit teams where it hurts, with the level of “hurt” being determined by your thresholds. Deducting points, reducing development time, reducing future caps, other restrictions I haven’t thought of - all breaches should result in punishment of this nature. The question should be size.
I can’t remember who made the point but think about drug abuse in athletes - you almost always get banned and medals taken away, even if amounts were traced and the breach wasn’t intentional. Why? Because it is necessary to maintain the integrity of the sport and fair competition.
I’m not saying RB should have their title taken away, or Max, but in principle the two matters are similar by and large and therefore, to me, issuing a fine is just not appropriate. The only time I can see it is if it’s a procedural issue, in which case the entire breach itself is of a different nature.
Well the idea teams should define punishments in the first place is flawed, then. Have a say? Input into the process? Sure. But the idea you set your punishments based on the views of participants is just dumb in my view. Any regulator worth their money would identify this as an issue.
Marseille were stripped of the european cup. Lance armstrong stripped of his multiple titles. Ben johnson stripped of his olympic 100m gold medal.
The standards are there in other sports, have the FIA got the balls to protect the integrity of the sport? Have they feck.
The standards are there in other sports, have the FIA got the balls to protect the integrity of the sport? Have they feck.
The extra developement that RB did in 2021 helped them develop for 2022. Its given them an advantage that they will retain into 2023. Theres already allegations that RedBull have overspent for 2022 season i.e. the new floor that neither ferrari or mercs could afford under the budget cap. Doesnt matter if the RB was 10 seconds faster than the mercs or ferrari this season or 0.1 seconds. Cheating is cheating.
I think they are analogous but different. I think there is definitely a fair punishment which doesn’t immediately mean RB and Max lose their titles. I’m thinking NFL salary caps for example.
Depending how egregious it is, I could see a reasonable punishment being a reduction in future cap space and limited wind tunnel time, for example. But who knows.