Mikel Arteta | Lego Pep watch

danamann said:
Nothing will ever convince me that Arteta is a good manager. After all the time and money spent and 3 years of underperforming, they finally look like they assembled a decent squad to finish top 4. But when the pressure is on he will fail as he has already shown plenty of times in his tenure.
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This is such a strange attitude to have.

Where has 3 years of underperforming come from btw? 1.5 years maybe i'd allow people (Although even that has it's own stories). But, can you explain 3 years?

I'm sure he has done nothing to help assemble this squad either..

He's won a trophy, more than 90% of managers.
 
danamann said:
Nothing will ever convince me that Arteta is a good manager. After all the time and money spent and 3 years of underperforming, they finally look like they assembled a decent squad to finish top 4. But when the pressure is on he will fail as he has already shown plenty of times in his tenure.
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I’ve never understood proclaiming that nothing will ever convince you of something. Is the inability to potentially change your mind in the light evidence viewed as some sort of virtue?
 
Daydreamer said:
I’ve never understood proclaiming that nothing will ever convince you of something. Is the inability to potentially change your mind in the light evidence viewed as some sort of virtue?
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Which evidence are you referring to? I assume you are talking about this season, because there certainly isn't any evidence in any of his previous seasons in charge.

In fact, I recognize a pattern of coming up short, especially in high pressure situations.
He hasn't managed to come near the top 4 in any of the previous seasons. Maybe that wasn't the objective, fair enough, but he certainly only did the bare minimum. Then missing out on last seasons top 4 can only be described as failure.
He has a terrible record against top sides, often times being outsmarted tactically. He makes questionable personnel decisions like criminally underusing Martinelli until he could no longer ignore him. He cannot handle strong personalities in the dressing room (see Aubameyang) and I haven't even mentioned how cringeworthy he comes across in the documentary.

Yes, they are doing very well this seasons. Is this down to Arteta? I'd have to strongly disagree. What Arsenals success shows is that if you develop a coherent concept, work together as a team and give it time, you will have some sort of success. Obviously you need to spend money - and they have spent a lot during his tenure - to bring in the right players. They've been very hit an miss in regards to that but the hits have really improved the team.
In my view they will still come up short and disappoint eventually because Arteta is simply not good enough. In fact I'd suggest that if they had stuck with Emery they would have been more successful in less time.
 
WeePat said:
Look, fair is fair. We had a lot of fun bantering Arteta when things were going terribly for him, it's only fair to credit him when his team is producing great football and showing signs of the elusive consistency we're all looking for. It's been an amazing start to the season for Arsenal, and it can no longer just be dismissed as a favourable early schedule.

I hope everyone's right and they start tumbling down the table, but they've shown no signs of that happening any time soon. Every week I tune into their game hoping this is the week the wheels come off and they always churn out a win, even when they don't play particularly well.

Very annoying but you have to respect the form they're showing.
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Leeds played well to be fair to arsenal. They just didn't crumble usually they did in those situations. And of course football is confident sport once you start winning games things will go your way mostly.

I think they will struggle with coming up schedule.
danamann said:
Which evidence are you referring to? I assume you are talking about this season, because there certainly isn't any evidence in any of his previous seasons in charge.

In fact, I recognize a pattern of coming up short, especially in high pressure situations.
He hasn't managed to come near the top 4 in any of the previous seasons. Maybe that wasn't the objective, fair enough, but he certainly only did the bare minimum. Then missing out on last seasons top 4 can only be described as failure.
He has a terrible record against top sides, often times being outsmarted tactically. He makes questionable personnel decisions like criminally underusing Martinelli until he could no longer ignore him. He cannot handle strong personalities in the dressing room (see Aubameyang) and I haven't even mentioned how cringeworthy he comes across in the documentary.

Yes, they are doing very well this seasons. Is this down to Arteta? I'd have to strongly disagree. What Arsenals success shows is that if you develop a coherent concept, work together as a team and give it time, you will have some sort of success. Obviously you need to spend money - and they have spent a lot during his tenure - to bring in the right players. They've been very hit an miss in regards to that but the hits have really improved the team.
In my view they will still come up short and disappoint eventually because Arteta is simply not good enough. In fact I'd suggest that if they had stuck with Emery they would have been more successful in less time.
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Martinelli was injured often than fit. One of those players always in treatment table last few seasons. Arteta played him whenever he was available and fit.

Other than that your arguments were valid. He was backed by their board only in hope not any clear indicator to think he can challenge for top honours. He got the chance now to prove he can challenge top teams for top honours. Have to wait how he develops his team.This season he is very good so for.
 
danamann said:
Which evidence are you referring to? I assume you are talking about this season, because there certainly isn't any evidence in any of his previous seasons in charge.

In fact, I recognize a pattern of coming up short, especially in high pressure situations.
He hasn't managed to come near the top 4 in any of the previous seasons. Maybe that wasn't the objective, fair enough, but he certainly only did the bare minimum. Then missing out on last seasons top 4 can only be described as failure.
He has a terrible record against top sides, often times being outsmarted tactically. He makes questionable personnel decisions like criminally underusing Martinelli until he could no longer ignore him. He cannot handle strong personalities in the dressing room (see Aubameyang) and I haven't even mentioned how cringeworthy he comes across in the documentary.

Yes, they are doing very well this seasons. Is this down to Arteta? I'd have to strongly disagree. What Arsenals success shows is that if you develop a coherent concept, work together as a team and give it time, you will have some sort of success. Obviously you need to spend money - and they have spent a lot during his tenure - to bring in the right players. They've been very hit an miss in regards to that but the hits have really improved the team.
In my view they will still come up short and disappoint eventually because Arteta is simply not good enough. In fact I'd suggest that if they had stuck with Emery they would have been more successful in less time.
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I’m referring to any evidence. If there is nothing that can possibly convince you of something, then no amount of evidence to the contrary could potentially change your view. Which… is odd.

The discussion has focused on whether or not Arteta was making progress that hadn’t been reflected in results (leaving the fact that he won a trophy beating City and Chelsea along the way to one side for now). There are reasonable arguments for and against that.

There’s also the argument that you seemed to be making, that managers should be judged on their results and that Arteta simply hasn’t been good enough in this regard. Once again, fair enough.

But now Arsenal have won 12/13 games to make the best start in our club’s entire history… suddenly our good results are not down to Arteta. But our bad results somehow still are because of Arteta.

As an argument, it’s all over the place.
 
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danamann said:
Which evidence are you referring to? I assume you are talking about this season, because there certainly isn't any evidence in any of his previous seasons in charge.

In fact, I recognize a pattern of coming up short, especially in high pressure situations.
He hasn't managed to come near the top 4 in any of the previous seasons. Maybe that wasn't the objective, fair enough, but he certainly only did the bare minimum. Then missing out on last seasons top 4 can only be described as failure.
He has a terrible record against top sides, often times being outsmarted tactically. He makes questionable personnel decisions like criminally underusing Martinelli until he could no longer ignore him. He cannot handle strong personalities in the dressing room (see Aubameyang) and I haven't even mentioned how cringeworthy he comes across in the documentary.

Yes, they are doing very well this seasons. Is this down to Arteta? I'd have to strongly disagree. What Arsenals success shows is that if you develop a coherent concept, work together as a team and give it time, you will have some sort of success. Obviously you need to spend money - and they have spent a lot during his tenure - to bring in the right players. They've been very hit an miss in regards to that but the hits have really improved the team.
In my view they will still come up short and disappoint eventually because Arteta is simply not good enough. In fact I'd suggest that if they had stuck with Emery they would have been more successful in less time.
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This is just odd. Us being top of the league has nothing to do with Arteta? My word..

You're going to hold him not coming close to top 4 in his first season down to him when he picked up the team in 11th place?

He never criminally underused Martinelli. What a clueless comment. Martinelli would play, then get injured. So, instead he took him out the team to work on his physical side, which is now paying off.

You must have no idea how bad it was with Emery, it was the worst i've ever see the club in every aspect.

In fact everything you said was just someone who has no idea tbh.
 
danamann said:
Which evidence are you referring to? I assume you are talking about this season, because there certainly isn't any evidence in any of his previous seasons in charge.

In fact, I recognize a pattern of coming up short, especially in high pressure situations.
He hasn't managed to come near the top 4 in any of the previous seasons. Maybe that wasn't the objective, fair enough, but he certainly only did the bare minimum. Then missing out on last seasons top 4 can only be described as failure.
He has a terrible record against top sides, often times being outsmarted tactically. He makes questionable personnel decisions like criminally underusing Martinelli until he could no longer ignore him. He cannot handle strong personalities in the dressing room (see Aubameyang) and I haven't even mentioned how cringeworthy he comes across in the documentary.

Yes, they are doing very well this seasons. Is this down to Arteta? I'd have to strongly disagree. What Arsenals success shows is that if you develop a coherent concept, work together as a team and give it time, you will have some sort of success. Obviously you need to spend money - and they have spent a lot during his tenure - to bring in the right players. They've been very hit an miss in regards to that but the hits have really improved the team.
In my view they will still come up short and disappoint eventually because Arteta is simply not good enough. In fact I'd suggest that if they had stuck with Emery they would have been more successful in less time.
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Frothing at the mouth. Have to love it.
 
Nish115 said:
This is just odd. Us being top of the league has nothing to do with Arteta? My word..

You're going to hold him not coming close to top 4 in his first season down to him when he picked up the team in 11th place?

He never criminally underused Martinelli. What a clueless comment. Martinelli would play, then get injured. So, instead he took him out the team to work on his physical side, which is now paying off.

You must have no idea how bad it was with Emery, it was the worst i've ever see the club in every aspect.

In fact everything you said was just someone who has no idea tbh.
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This is just not true. He was playing regularly under Emery. Then Arteta took over and didn't play him for a long time until he had to. Then he immediately got injured. I thought as an Arsenal fan you should know better.
 
danamann said:
This is just not true. He was playing regularly under Emery. Then Arteta took over and didn't play him for a long time until he had to. Then he immediately got injured. I thought as an Arsenal fan you should know better.
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Martinelli played 82 minutes of PL football under Emery. Total.
 
In 267 pages of Arteta's thread, 3/4 of them are the discussion of Arteta is shit vs he is not. How about just admit he is shit and then move on to other topics that is worth discussion such as may be his tactics or his man management.

Playing Xhaka as #8 and his resurgence under Arteta has been impressive when most of the fans gave up on him , and the idea of using Ben White who is a CB as inverted RB to play in a midfield 3 during attack works out quite well so far, and his coaching on Martinelli how to control and time his sprints.

https://breakingthelines.com/player-analysis/ben-white-arsenals-jack-of-all-trades-in-defense/

https://breakingthelines.com/player-analysis/gabriel-martinelli-arsenals-brazilian-sensation/
 
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GoonerBear said:
Just wondering, what would he need to do to convince you by May?
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Why are Arsenal fans so desperate for everyone to say he's a great manager? Weren't the majority of them calling for him to be sacked not long ago?
 
danamann said:
He has a terrible record against top sides, often times being outsmarted tactically.
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Others have pulled you up on other points, I feel as if I need to pull you up on this.
I wouldn't say his record is terrible.

19/20, In his first half season Wins Vs Utd and Liverpool, drew with Chelsea and defeats by Chelsea, Spurs and City in the league. He beat City and Chelsea to win the FA Cup.

20/21 Wins Chelsea x2, Utd, and Spurs, drew with Utd, defeats by x2 City, x2 Liverpool and Spurs.

21/22 Wins vs Utd, Spurs and Chelsea, defeats to City x2, Liverpool x2, United and Spurs.

22/23 so far. Wins Vs Liverpool and Spurs, defeat Vs Utd.

He has a poor record vs City and not so good against Liverpool but he wins games Vs Chelsea, Utd and Spurs every season, while also usually losing against them as well.
So I'd say his record wasn't probably par considering it's been acknowledged his team was probably weakest out the top 6 as well.
 
Edwards6 said:
Why are Arsenal fans so desperate for everyone to say he's a great manager? Weren't the majority of them calling for him to be sacked not long ago?
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It's a discussion forum, someone gave an opinion, his opinion currently is perfectly valid. I asked what it would take for that opinion to change. Nothing sinister, just a question prompting further discussion.
 
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Real Name said:
You dont like it?
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1. I don't understand why some arsenal fans think there is a need to defend Arteta. Arteta will defend himself by his own work.
2. In a forum 99.9% of the time you can't convince anyone anyway. In redcafe Pep is a fraud, Ancelotti is "past" it when he coached Everton. I don't understand what those Arsenal fans are trying to do.
3. I believe it is more healthy to discuss Arteta's man management, tactic, or mistake he made in a match, rather than have 267 pages talked about he is shit or not. You click on any page basically is the same discussion over and over.
 
Remember when Solskjaer was top in January but still shit? Finished 2nd but it was only because other teams had a poor season. Arteta is top after 10 games and apparently he's now a great manager and we need to forget what he did the last 3 years
 
danamann said:
This is just not true. He was playing regularly under Emery. Then Arteta took over and didn't play him for a long time until he had to. Then he immediately got injured. I thought as an Arsenal fan you should know better.
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As the post below me said, again, absolute rubbish.

I do know better. I know you are just making up stuff.
 
danamann said:
This is just not true. He was playing regularly under Emery. Then Arteta took over and didn't play him for a long time until he had to. Then he immediately got injured. I thought as an Arsenal fan you should know better.
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Honestly mate, you need to quit while you are... ahead(?). With respect, you don't know better and are chatting rubbish.

I love this thread, and the fact it has 267 pages. It is a badge of honor for Mikel, as people clearly hate him doing well. :)
 
The Corinthian said:
No. You don’t win a medal for being top in mid October mate.

Happy to reassess in May.
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If you really mean "no" I am surprised. If I'm not wrong you rated him as a joke of a manager. Clueless etc.

I get if your "no" means you don't think he's a top manager. Personally, I am also not getting carried away like some here claiming he's the next Pep already. I have always said, Arteta at least warranted a chance to prove himself if he is good enough or not. When people thought he was a joke I felt he hadn't been given a chance yet.

In my books, Arteta has proved he is a very capable premier league manager. That in itself is no small achievement given the current quality of the league. Beyond that, just as I was cautious about putting him in the failure ex-player manager bucket, I am cautious about putting him in the league of top managers.

Also, being top of the league is not the issue for me. A few points here and there and our current team could be second right now but it's the manner in which they've gone there that does impress me.
 
Josh on Arsenal rebuilding strategy. I would say this season so far we are overachieving.

Josh claims their recruitment strategy mirrors that of their sports team which they own in America. It has resulted in success across the pond with the Los Angeles Rams winning the most recent Super Bowl and the Arsenal chief is confident "special times are ahead".


He said: “In the United States we have a certain model [used at other organisations run by Kroenke Sports & Entertainment] and we’re implementing that here, and we have over the last three years, which is, young players, talented players with the right mentality, let them grow together while continuing to sprinkle in talent throughout the squad.


“Eventually it grows into something very special. The power of continuity behind the scenes and people working together and pulling in the same direction is an underrated aspect of pro sports. With the power of continuity and allowing this group to grow together, special times are ahead for this club.”
 
shamans said:
If you really mean "no" I am surprised. If I'm not wrong you rated him as a joke of a manager. Clueless etc.

I get if your "no" means you don't think he's a top manager. Personally, I am also not getting carried away like some here claiming he's the next Pep already. I have always said, Arteta at least warranted a chance to prove himself if he is good enough or not. When people thought he was a joke I felt he hadn't been given a chance yet.

In my books, Arteta has proved he is a very capable premier league manager. That in itself is no small achievement given the current quality of the league. Beyond that, just as I was cautious about putting him in the failure ex-player manager bucket, I am cautious about putting him in the league of top managers.

Also, being top of the league is not the issue for me. A few points here and there and our current team could be second right now but it's the manner in which they've gone there that does impress me.
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We were top around Jan time under Ole in the 20/21 season, we ended up finishing 2nd, and losing a Europa League final on penalties.

Like I said above - let's see where they are May time. I'd either be proven wrong or proven right with my initial comments (whatever they were).

Right now, I don't think he's done a job that special considering -

a) The amount that he's spent
b) The significant drop off from other members of the 'big 6' (Chelsea, Liverpool and us, I mean we're always in turmoil)
c) The amount of luck (this is a bit of a woolly factor admittedly)

But I can only give him and the team credit for being top of the league in mid-October. You can only beat what's in front of you, and they've done that bar the game at OT.
 
The Corinthian said:
We were top around Jan time under Ole in the 20/21 season, we ended up finishing 2nd, and losing a Europa League final on penalties.

Like I said above - let's see where they are May time. I'd either be proven wrong or proven right with my initial comments (whatever they were).

Right now, I don't think he's done a job that special considering -

a) The amount that he's spent
b) The significant drop off from other members of the 'big 6' (Chelsea, Liverpool and us, I mean we're always in turmoil)
c) The amount of luck (this is a bit of a woolly factor admittedly)

But I can only give him and the team credit for being top of the league in mid-October. You can only beat what's in front of you, and they've done that bar the game at OT.
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As I mentioned, I think there can be a big difference between how you get to that league position. This season with some luck, we could be top 4 but have we really played like a top 4 team for instance?
 
shamans said:
As I mentioned, I think there can be a big difference between how you get to that league position. This season with some luck, we could be top 4 but have we really played like a top 4 team for instance?
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Yea, I get that point. However, you can play some of the prettiest football on the pitch, but it doesn't mean you're guaranteed the medal end of the year. Ironically, that was some of the criticsim that mired Wenger's time at Arsenal as well - the football was great but his teams didn't have enough mettle.

We've only played good football in fits and spurts, but I do like the way our team is headed overall. I'm surprised at some of the criticism that has come EtH's way considering we've beaten two of our big 6 rivals, and picked up points at teams we always tend to drop points to - Leicester, Southampton and Everton. We had 2 games at the start of the season which really set us back, but maybe a bit of short term pain was needed for EtH to understand the depth of the job.
 
shamans said:
As I mentioned, I think there can be a big difference between how you get to that league position. This season with some luck, we could be top 4 but have we really played like a top 4 team for instance?
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Well not turning it to a different thread but barring Arsenal City and spurs no other side has played like a top 4 club. So if we finish 4th, we won't be lucky or anything.
 
What amuses me is why are some arsenal fans here so hell bent on seeking approval from United fans in United forum to praise their manager. You guys are on top of the league, enjoy that. Like if United were on top of the league I couldn't care what arsenal fans in arsenal forum think about ETH.

Is arteta a shit or average manager? Probably not. I always maintained he can be a really good manager but one can only be judged by the present results. He is doing a great job this season and if he continues to do this and actually takes city to the limit then fair play to him and I will acknowledge then that he is actually good but till then too soon to jump the gun.
 
Right now the hair bit of the lego fell off and it's somewhere under the cupboard, once it is found he will return to full form Lego Pep. Right now he is Pep.
 
SuperiorXI said:
Right now the hair bit of the lego fell off and it's somewhere under the cupboard, once it is found he will return to full form Lego Pep. Right now he is Pep.
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Good assessment.

He is an intense, dedicated manager who probably at times is overthinking it. I am happy enough to have him. He is still making mistakes but he is also very new at this still and there are less clear mistakes lately. So...he is growing in the role.
 
The Corinthian said:
Yea, I get that point. However, you can play some of the prettiest football on the pitch, but it doesn't mean you're guaranteed the medal end of the year. Ironically, that was some of the criticsim that mired Wenger's time at Arsenal as well - the football was great but his teams didn't have enough mettle.

We've only played good football in fits and spurts, but I do like the way our team is headed overall. I'm surprised at some of the criticism that has come EtH's way considering we've beaten two of our big 6 rivals, and picked up points at teams we always tend to drop points to - Leicester, Southampton and Everton. We had 2 games at the start of the season which really set us back, but maybe a bit of short term pain was needed for EtH to understand the depth of the job.
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Yeah, I am not criticizing us or our manager. Just making a point we are not a true "top 4" team yet but could end up there. Which is fine. Our squad has a new look, and new faces. It will take time.

To get back to the Arteta comparison, I wouldn't dream of trading ETH for him. Arteta has a long, long way to go to achieve what ETH has and deserve that sort of backing. But then, Arsenal is not Man United and they have lower standards. Arteta might be punching above his weight category for now but I think he has the potential to be a good premier league manager. If he can clinch top 4 for Arsenal a few seasons in a row I think he'd have done well. Time will tell.

For now, I have no doubt we have the superior manager. Not going to minimize what Arteta has done for Arsenal, but let's face it United is a different beast. The pressure and fan expectations can even crush world class managers. With Arsenal, Arteta has had a bit of a free swing.


AshRK said:
Well not turning it to a different thread but barring Arsenal City and spurs no other side has played like a top 4 club. So if we finish 4th, we won't be lucky or anything.
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I'll argue against Arsenal. I think they've played like a top 4 club (and not a premier league winning club) which is why I give Arteta some credit.

City have played some of the best football in the league. They are a class apart. There is no doubt they are at least top 4. That's not even debatable for me.

Spurs is arguable. They haven't played all that amazing but they seem to grind out results.
 
shamans said:
Yeah, I am not criticizing us or our manager. Just making a point we are not a true "top 4" team yet but could end up there. Which is fine. Our squad has a new look, and new faces. It will take time.

To get back to the Arteta comparison, I wouldn't dream of trading ETH for him. Arteta has a long, long way to go to achieve what ETH has and deserve that sort of backing. But then, Arsenal is not Man United and they have lower standards. Arteta might be punching above his weight category for now but I think he has the potential to be a good premier league manager. If he can clinch top 4 for Arsenal a few seasons in a row I think he'd have done well. Time will tell.

For now, I have no doubt we have the superior manager. Not going to minimize what Arteta has done for Arsenal, but let's face it United is a different beast. The pressure and fan expectations can even crush world class managers. With Arsenal, Arteta has had a bit of a free swing.




I'll argue against Arsenal. I think they've played like a top 4 club (and not a premier league winning club) which is why I give Arteta some credit.

City have played some of the best football in the league. They are a class apart. There is no doubt they are at least top 4. That's not even debatable for me.

Spurs is arguable. They haven't played all that amazing but they seem to grind out results.
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I did include arsenal in that list. So not sure what you mean by argue against Arsenal.
 
The Corinthian said:
We were top around Jan time under Ole in the 20/21 season, we ended up finishing 2nd, and losing a Europa League final on penalties.

Like I said above - let's see where they are May time. I'd either be proven wrong or proven right with my initial comments (whatever they were).

Right now, I don't think he's done a job that special considering -

a) The amount that he's spent
b) The significant drop off from other members of the 'big 6' (Chelsea, Liverpool and us, I mean we're always in turmoil)
c) The amount of luck (this is a bit of a woolly factor admittedly)

But I can only give him and the team credit for being top of the league in mid-October. You can only beat what's in front of you, and they've done that bar the game at OT.
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You know what, the more I think about it the more I think you are right in your thinking. You reference Ole, I'll go 1 further and mention Poch. Done a good job at Southampton, done a really good job at Spurs getting them 2nd and 3rd place finishes and to a Champions League final, and although I thought he was a good manager, I never really thought he was a great manager. So why should we expect other fans to think otherwise of Arteta currently.
 
AshRK said:
What amuses me is why are some arsenal fans here so hell bent on seeking approval from United fans in United forum to praise their manager. You guys are on top of the league, enjoy that. Like if United were on top of the league I couldn't care what arsenal fans in arsenal forum think about ETH.

Is arteta a shit or average manager? Probably not. I always maintained he can be a really good manager but one can only be judged by the present results. He is doing a great job this season and if he continues to do this and actually takes city to the limit then fair play to him and I will acknowledge then that he is actually good but till then too soon to jump the gun.
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This is a fair point and I pretty much agree with you. It’s kind of the inverse of a question I asked a couple months back, 'Why do Arteta's critics care enough for this thread to be as long as it is?'

The responses ranged from the reasonable (He’s a media darling who received more club backing than, for example, Ole) to the laughable (Typical delusional Arsenal fans believing anyone gives a crap about your Manager).

I personally share your worldview on this matter. Who cares if rival fans rate your Manager when you’re playing well? For me - and I can’t speak for anyone else - it’s more the curiosity around why Arteta inspires so much commentary. There is no ETH thread on Arsenal Mania (it’s folded into the Man United thread) but if there was, I can’t imagine it being very long.

And it’s not like it’s purely Gooners discussing Arteta amongst ourselves in here; swathes of the posts are from United fans who seem strangely salty.
 
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