Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

Walrus said:
Whilst I would never advocate for the targeting and killing of civilians, it does feel like for the average Russian, they probably don’t particularly care about this war because it doesn’t really affect them in most cases.

Perhaps a few strikes on actual urban areas would open their eyes and bring reality home a bit, and therefore put more pressure on Putin. It would be hard to justify though, and would risk causing Ukraines support and morale high ground to dry up. Still it’s ridiculous that Russia can just keep striking Ukrainian civilian centres but apparently Ukraine isn’t allowed to retaliate.
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The obvious drawback of Ukraine doing the same is that Russia can use it as a pretext to escalate with far more destructive (but not nuclear) weapons in Ukraine. This is one of the reasons the Ukrainians often publicly deny their operations inside Russia, as publicizing them would needlessly cede moral leverage to Putin.
 
Walrus said:
Whilst I would never advocate for the targeting and killing of civilians, it does feel like for the average Russian, they probably don’t particularly care about this war because it doesn’t really affect them in most cases.

Perhaps a few strikes on actual urban areas would open their eyes and bring reality home a bit, and therefore put more pressure on Putin. It would be hard to justify though, and would risk causing Ukraines support and morale high ground to dry up. Still it’s ridiculous that Russia can just keep striking Ukrainian civilian centres but apparently Ukraine isn’t allowed to retaliate.
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Or it would sway/cement the sentiment amongst Russian people, then escalate the war which could have a major effect on the morale of Ukrainians. Could also affect sentiment elsewhere.

I think Ukraine need to be seen as the good guys as much as possible.
 
VeevaVee said:
Or it would sway/cement the sentiment amongst Russian people, then escalate the war which could have a major effect on the morale of Ukrainians. Could also affect sentiment elsewhere.

I think Ukraine need to be seen as the good guys as much as possible.
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With a typical mindset, this would certainly be the case. If this war has taught us anything though, it seems to be that the typical Russian mindset is very different.

I dont know, and it probably isnt a risk worth taking.
 
the hea said:
Bombing civilians can never be the answer, never. I can't beleive someone is actually suggesting that on here.
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I assume you are referring to my post which started with "Whilst I would never advocate for the targeting and killing of civilians"
 
I think fighting fire with fire is a completely wrong approach for Ukraine. Russia is clearly on the losing end and despite the war crimes commited by them, Ukraine shouldn't lose sight of the bigger picture. Putin is doing as much harm to his own country as he is to Ukraine and it will show in the mid to long term. He's currently wiping out a whole generation of young Russian males and has lead his country into recession. It's already firing back at Russia and this fire will only intensify until they back down.
 
Raoul said:
Those are obviously not terms the Ukrainians will ever agree to given that it would cement Russian victory and theft of internationally recognized Ukrainian land.
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Agreed, tough the poster I was alluding to said that the continuation of the conflict favoured Russia, which doesn't make sense for a country looking to wrap things up and legalize their thefts as soon as possible.
 
Krakenzero said:
Agreed, tough the poster I was alluding to said that the continuation of the conflict favoured Russia, which doesn't make sense for a country looking to wrap things up and legalize their thefts as soon as possible.
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Yeah, I would agree with that. The only plausible reason I could see Putin wanting to play the long game is for a new US administration to be elected in 2024, that would then reduce western funding for the war, which would obviously help Russia. Other than that, Putin will want to end this as soon as possible because he can't sustain the level of loss he's endured over the past year - both in terms of human life and national resources.
 
the hea said:
Bombing civilians can never be the answer, never. I can't beleive someone is actually suggesting that on here.
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You mean the Ukrainians bombing Russian civilians, right?
In my question I questioned an attack on the kremlin. What a message that would send. Still, the bloody Russians would massacre even more UKR civilians than they already are.
 
RoyH1 said:
Yes. Let's legalize theft, pillage and rape why don't we.

Why do you link and pay credence to this garbage?
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I humbly suggest you count to ten and read the context of the discussion again.

On topic, I don't think that Putin gains anything from prolonging the conflict, and that's why he's trying to legalize his conquests ASAP. The more he waits, the weaker Russia becomes geopolitically speaking and himself personally on internal politics (plus, he is not getting any younger). If he was confident in a long term win, he won't even be bothered with diplomatic action.
 
Walrus said:
I assume you are referring to my post which started with "Whilst I would never advocate for the targeting and killing of civilians"
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From the director of: " I am not racist but..."

Doesn't matter what sentence you use when you propose attaching urban areas
 
4bars said:
From the director of: " I am not racist but..."

Doesn't matter what sentence you use when you propose attaching urban areas
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I was quite clear on avoiding civilian casualties. The spirit of the post - and that I maintain - is that if Ukraine/the West can find a way to 'make it real' for the everyday Russians, then it will be advantageous. Ukraine is constantly being bombarded, power outages, air raid sirens etc, whilst the average Russian doesnt seem to be affected much at all. Its been a year and Putin doesnt seem to care much about the sanctions, or companies pulling out - their economy may be very slowly collapsing, but very slowly isnt good enough when Ukraine is being bombed everyday.
 
Walrus said:
I was quite clear on avoiding civilian casualties. The spirit of the post - and that I maintain - is that if Ukraine/the West can find a way to 'make it real' for the everyday Russians, then it will be advantageous. Ukraine is constantly being bombarded, power outages, air raid sirens etc, whilst the average Russian doesnt seem to be affected much at all. Its been a year and Putin doesnt seem to care much about the sanctions, or companies pulling out - their economy may be very slowly collapsing, but very slowly isnt good enough when Ukraine is being bombed everyday.
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What I fear is that if it becomes "more real" for the Russian population, they'll rally behind Putin.

In my opinion it's therefore in Ukraine's interest to not involve the Russian people. Don't give them reasons to blame you. Let them organically realize that they should be angry at Putin.

PR-wise it's also much better for Ukraine to maintain the fact that they're only trying to push Russia out of their country, not to escalate to the Russian homeland.
 
VorZakone said:
What I fear is that if it becomes "more real" for the Russian population, they'll rally behind Putin.

In my opinion it's therefore in Ukraine's interest to not involve the Russian people. Don't give them reasons to blame you. Let them organically realize that they should be angry at Putin.

PR-wise it's also much better for Ukraine to maintain the fact that they're only trying to push Russia out of their country, not to escalate to the Russian homeland.
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Exactly. It should be Russian recruitment officers who are seen forcefully taking fathers away from their children, not Ukrainian missiles killing the children.
 
Walrus said:
I was quite clear on avoiding civilian casualties. The spirit of the post - and that I maintain - is that if Ukraine/the West can find a way to 'make it real' for the everyday Russians, then it will be advantageous. Ukraine is constantly being bombarded, power outages, air raid sirens etc, whilst the average Russian doesnt seem to be affected much at all. Its been a year and Putin doesnt seem to care much about the sanctions, or companies pulling out - their economy may be very slowly collapsing, but very slowly isnt good enough when Ukraine is being bombed everyday.
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How you avoid civilian casualties attacking urban areas?
 
4bars said:
How you avoid civilian casualties attacking urban areas?
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You don't, unless of course you're fighting an insurgency in a city, which isn't on the table given that we are talking about inside Russia.
 
Walrus said:
I was quite clear on avoiding civilian casualties. The spirit of the post - and that I maintain - is that if Ukraine/the West can find a way to 'make it real' for the everyday Russians, then it will be advantageous. Ukraine is constantly being bombarded, power outages, air raid sirens etc, whilst the average Russian doesnt seem to be affected much at all. Its been a year and Putin doesnt seem to care much about the sanctions, or companies pulling out - their economy may be very slowly collapsing, but very slowly isnt good enough when Ukraine is being bombed everyday.
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The making it real bit is already being accomplished in slow motion through sanctions and by Putin himself through his mass mobilization and the subsequent fleeing of Russians to avoid being sent into the meat grinder.
 
Walrus said:
I was quite clear on avoiding civilian casualties. The spirit of the post - and that I maintain - is that if Ukraine/the West can find a way to 'make it real' for the everyday Russians, then it will be advantageous. Ukraine is constantly being bombarded, power outages, air raid sirens etc, whilst the average Russian doesnt seem to be affected much at all. Its been a year and Putin doesnt seem to care much about the sanctions, or companies pulling out - their economy may be very slowly collapsing, but very slowly isnt good enough when Ukraine is being bombed everyday.
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You mean like sanctions or rather something even more substantial such as being mobilized and dragged into a war they don't want to fight?

On a more serious note, the people being mobilized seem to consist primarily of non-Russian ethnicities. I think the Russians living in metropolitan areas feel less involved and that might be something that needs to be changed but if Russia's war efforts continue like this, it is only a matter of time until they mobilize those people, too. Plus they'll feel the sanctions hitting hard as well.
What I would want to see more is the informational war being fought at their door step. Let them see the heartbreaking stories of murdered and raped civilians, show them how Putin sends the mobilized into the meat grinder and how Russian POWs are treated with much more respect than their Ukrainian counterparts. I'm actually surprised we aren't seeing more of this. I'd think Russia isn't up to Western standards in terms of cyber security.
 
Walrus said:
I assume you are referring to my post which started with "Whilst I would never advocate for the targeting and killing of civilians"
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And follow it up with suggesing bombing urban areas as retribution. There is no bombing urban areas without civilian casualties, if you drop bombs into cities there will be civilian casualties.
If Ukraine started doing what you suggest they would become exatly what they are described as in Russian propaganda. They need to be better then that or the support in the west will go away very quickly, no country wants their weapons used to kill civilians.
 
Krakenzero said:
If he was confident in a long term win, he won't even be bothered with diplomatic action.
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Why exactly? If invasion went fully according to his plan, he would be "pushing for peace" this way since march. Long term he will want economic sanctions lifted regardless of how the invasion goes.
 
Again, I question people talking about how Russian can't do this for long and how their armies and weapons were gone.

They are still doing it and will do it while gaining more land than the UKR has for the past few weeks (?). I think people are really underestimating what Putin (and his people) will endure to keep going.

The support does not seem to be good or fast enough for the UKR which is obvious and the fatigue will hit them really hard very soon. The UKR should really have gotten Kreminna and Savtone (sp?) last year to keep the momentum. At this point, it does not look good for the UKR more so than the Russians.
 
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The United said:
Again, I question people talking about how Russian can't do this for long and how their armies and weapons were gone.

They are still doing it and will do it while gaining more land than the UKR has for the past few weeks (?). I think people are really underestimating what Putin and (his people) will endure to keep going.

The support does not seem to be good or fast enough for the UKR which is obvious and the fatigue will hit them really hard very soon. The UKR should really have gotten that city and Savtone (sp?) last year to keep the momentum. At this point, it does not look good for the UKR more so than the Russians.
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It's a damn good thing I'm not a western politician. I'm over this.
 
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