Chelsea 2022/2023 | THIS IS LAST YEARS THREAD YOU NUMPTIES

[Rnd898]

You won the CL and reached two cup finals and finished 3rd in the last two years. You don't do that with bad players but if mid-table is your thing so be it.

UCL final squad:

Mendy -> form fell off the cliff last season and was already well on his way to losing his spot before Tuchel got the sack. Not good enough.
Rüdiger -> lost him due to previous owners neglectful contract policy and the sanctions placed on the club were just a final nail in the coffin for his departure
Silva -> still at the club and still a key player
Azpi -> not good enough anymore and wasn't last season either. Great servant for the club but his legs are not there anymore.
Chilwell -> still at the club and still a key player whenever fit
James -> our best player whenever fit
Kante -> still at the club and still probably good, but more and more injured so can't really count on him much
Jorginho -> gone and replaced by Enzo who may have cost too much money but is an obvious improvement
Mount -> still at the club and still a key player
Havertz -> less than 30 goals in almost three years from a supposed 'generational talent' is not good enough
Werner -> not at the club anymore, was considered a flop and fell out with Tuchel before leaving anyway

Subs:
Kovacic -> still at the club and still good
Pulisic -> terrible player and injury prone
Christensen -> same as Rüdiger, him having gone was down to the Abramovich regime's terrible contract management

So yeah, of the 14 players who played the UCL final (fully fit squad so best players that year) four of them have already left and among the remaining 10 players we have all of the six names who I said were still good enough to be key players for us.

That leaves just four other players in that squad: Azpi who is definitely on his last legs and doesn't seem to cut it at this level anymore, as well as the ever underperforming forwards Pulisic and Havertz who between them have scored 55 goals for the club in a total of 256 appearances and whose numbers and performances won't take too much to match by the newcomers.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

Lukaku has been a big problem for a few years - couldn't believe when Chelsea paid that much for him. You haven't bought cheap either. Enzo €120k bought by Benfica in June for €10k. Fofana and Cucurella for a fortune. Mudryk etc.But it's not so much the money. If Boehly can afford it and they lose money that's his problem .

I'm more focused on the football side of it. They is a huge possibility that Chelsea don't play in Europe next season and they've been knocked out early in the cups this season.

I don't see Potter being able to manage this. Thought he was out of his depth when he signed. Now even more convinced. Looks like he's been handed a load of new toys and been told to play with them.

We have 9 first team players out at the moment. Be mortified if the board went out and bought a load of unproven players for a fortune which we're stuck with. We've had enough bad buys but usually only one or two a season.

We got knocked out of the cups early because we drew those cheating frauds City away twice, which is obviously hugely unlucky.

I don't necessarily disagree with you about Potter - and I appreciate having a chat with you. I would say what we can agree on is that there seems to be a clear strategy employed this January - whether or not it's idiotic has yet to be determined!

Still though I just think it's a bit over the top to lump us in with City when they cheated and we are trying something that may or may not work out.

 

[Dancfc]

We got knocked out of the cups early because we drew those cheating frauds City away twice, which is obviously hugely unlucky.

I don't necessarily disagree with you about Potter - and I appreciate having a chat with you. I would say what we can agree on is that there seems to be a clear strategy employed this January - whether or not it's idiotic has yet to be determined!

Still though I just think it's a bit over the top to lump us in with City when they cheated and we are trying something that may or may not work out.

I'm a little perplex at our name being dragged into all this.

TPTB would have gone over every transaction with a fine tooth comb when Roman was sanctioned, we'd have been caught long before City if we were doing it.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

UCL final squad:

Mendy -> form fell off the cliff last season and was already well on his way to losing his spot before Tuchel got the sack. Not good enough.
Rüdiger -> lost him due to previous owners neglectful contract policy and the sanctions placed on the club were just a final nail in the coffin for his departure
Silva -> still at the club and still a key player
Azpi -> not good enough anymore and wasn't last season either. Great servant for the club but his legs are not there anymore.
Chilwell -> still at the club and still a key player whenever fit
James -> our best player whenever fit
Kante -> still at the club and still probably good, but more and more injured so can't really count on him much
Jorginho -> gone and replaced by Enzo who may have cost too much money but is an obvious improvement
Mount -> still at the club and still a key player
Havertz -> less than 30 goals in almost three years from a supposed 'generational talent' is not good enough
Werner -> not at the club anymore, was considered a flop and fell out with Tuchel before leaving anyway

Subs:
Kovacic -> still at the club and still good
Pulisic -> terrible player and injury prone
Christensen -> same as Rüdiger, him having gone was down to the Abramovich regime's terrible contract management

So yeah, of the 14 players who played the UCL final (fully fit squad so best players that year) four of them have already left and among the remaining 10 players we have all of the six names who I said were still good enough to be key players for us.

That leaves just four other players in that squad: Azpi who is definitely on his last legs and doesn't seem to cut it at this level anymore, as well as the ever underperforming forwards Pulisic and Havertz who between them have scored 55 goals for the club in a total of 256 appearances and whose numbers and performances won't take too much to match by the newcomers.

They were a team. Now you have loads of individuals who will take a long time to gel, if they can. Why is Enzo guaranteed to be better than Jorginho. He has played seventeen league games and a couple of good games at the WC since he signed for Benfica and that supposedly suddenly transformed him from a €10m player into a UK record signing. If he alone flops that's one almighty shock to the system, never mind all the others.

I bet if two years ago someone told you that what has happened over the last 9 months was going to happen you would have said they were insane. At least a lot of Chelsea supporters seemed convinced by all this - for the moment. Not convinced they will so enthusiastic by the beginning of next season.

 

[Dancfc]

They were a team. Now you have loads of individuals who will take a long time to gel, if they can. Why is Enzo guaranteed to be better than Jorginho. He has played seventeen league games and a couple of good games at the WC since he signed for Benfica and that supposedly suddenly transformed him from a €10m player into a UK record signing. If he alone flops that's one almighty shock to the system, never mind all the others.

I bet if two years ago someone told you that what has happened over the last 9 months was going to happen you would have said they were insane. At least a lot of Chelsea supporters seemed convinced by all this - for the moment. Not convinced they will so enthusiastic by the beginning of next season.

I knew Reece James would be elite before he kicked a ball in mens football, sometimes it's just obvious and Enzo falls into that category.

Also he was artificially that cheap due to the state of the economy in Argentina, yes it's fair to question why we didn't have the foresight then but the idea his value has shot up a six figure sum based on six months simply isn't true. Look at the cost for Endrick for a rough idea on what it would have cost to initially sign Enzo from South America if the Argentine economy was better placed.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

We got knocked out of the cups early because we drew those cheating frauds City away twice, which is obviously hugely unlucky.

I don't necessarily disagree with you about Potter - and I appreciate having a chat with you. I would say what we can agree on is that there seems to be a clear strategy employed this January - whether or not it's idiotic has yet to be determined!

Still though I just think it's a bit over the top to lump us in with City when they cheated and we are trying something that may or may not work out.

Funnily enough if City are banned from Europe next season it could let Chelsea into Europe. Liverpool and us have been harmed more by City over the years. You haven't cheated if you're within the rules but with rule changes and attention drawn by City, Boehly's strategy might not be quite as clever as he thinks. It really needs instant success which I don't see.

 

[Rnd898]

They were a team. Now you have loads of individuals who will take a long time to gel, if they can.

So what makes you so convinced these new players won't become 'a team' as well?

Of the UCL final starting lineup five of the players (Mendy, Chilwell, Silva, Havertz, Werner) were all signed less than one year prior.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I knew Reece James would be elite before he kicked a ball in mens football, sometimes it's just obvious and Enzo falls into that category.

Also he was artificially that cheap due to the state of the economy in Argentina, yes it's fair to question why we didn't have the foresight then but the idea his value has shot up a six figure sum based on six months simply isn't true. Look at the cost for Endrick for a rough idea on what it would have cost to initially sign Enzo from South America if the Argentine economy was better placed.

I'm not saying he won't but nobody knows. It's a whole new league , environment and country.

So what makes you so convinced these new players won't become 'a team' as well?

Of the UCL final starting lineup five of the players (Mendy, Chilwell, Silva, Havertz, Werner) were all signed less than one year prior.

Maybe they will in time. Two significant reasons is having too many players and having Potter dealing with the project.

 

[terraloo]

The financial side of this is one matter. Clearlake seem like they know very little about football. Looks like they are creating a logjam of players. On the other side which is more to what I'm referring to are the players, team performances, changing room morale, managerial competence etc are something else. If you're only playing in one competition you'll have a large number of players getting no or very little playing time.

As a minimum Chelsea will be playing in 3 competitions next year that is the numbers that most clubs play season after season.

Time will tell if Chelsea play in any European competition next season but you are judging what will be in terms of number of players who will be in the squad next season.

I think we have three players out of contract at seasons end. Two Kante and Silva will likely have their contracts extended ( Kante might be not so straight forward ) But at the end of the 20/23 season 9 players will be out of contract the talk seems to be that just two ( Mount & Kovacic ) will be at Chelsea post August 24 meaning almost certainly the club will be looking to move the bulk of these players out in the next two windows probably all in the summer.

You then start to look at players that will almost certainly be moved on if the rumours re correct that could be another 4 or so so in a blink of an eye that 33 +4 on loan is down to circa 25 ( including several who won’t be counted in the squad .

Ok huge amount of speculation in there but lets return to this at seasons end which is what 15 or so weeks time.Players maybe sulking but many of those purchased in the last two windows aren’t yet with the first team squad

As for Potter not being up to the job to be fair to the man he has had to deal with a massive injury list and yes I know all teams get injuries but would suggest that the one luxury he hasn’t been afforded is time to work with the squad in pre season

 

[terraloo]

If they're not playing or playing badly who's going to take them , and after how many seasons? Presumably you're not going to stop buying players in two or three years so what happens to those not playing or are clearly not good enough and they've still got many years left on their contracts.

My opinion, but if United had acted like Boehly I'd be horrified. Don't see it working at all but we'll have to wait and see.

Boehly changed the manager. The players he bought them .The players already there were good. That they're where they are now is entirely down to Boehly. Don't see it improving much.

Anyone that has watched Chelsea closely over the last few seasons could see that the squad was in need of a rebuild add to that close season losing Rudiger and Christensen compounded matters.

As for players not playing or playing badly well that’s the conundrum every club faces yes 8 year contracts add another factor but clubs have and always will find away around long contracts the irony is a club loaning a player with a smaller amount of fee to factor in may well be more attractive than a player whose amortisation trying to be recovered is higher even though the fee wasnt

[QUOTE="Paul the
They were a team. Now you have loads of individuals who will take a long time to gel, if they can. Why is Enzo guaranteed to be better than Jorginho. He has played seventeen league games and a couple of good games at the WC since he signed for Benfica and that supposedly suddenly transformed him from a €10m player into a UK record signing. If he alone flops that's one almighty shock to the system, never mind all the others.

I bet if two years ago someone told you that what has happened over the last 9 months was going to happen you would have said they were insane. At least a lot of Chelsea supporters seemed convinced by all this - for the moment. Not convinced they will so enthusiastic by the beginning of next season.
[/QUOTE]

Reading your posts I can only assume that if you had your way Utd would never buy a player, because they might fail, never transfer a player out because the forms they once had they would retain forever..

Of course Enzo isn’t guaranteed to be better than Jorginho but if you really think that Jorginho is guaranteed to be better than Enzo then sorry you are living in cloud cuckoo land.

Every supporter at every club was doing a jig when RA was forced to sell up . Every supporter and their dog was telling us Chelsea supporters that the days of spending big were gone so yes we are surprised what has happened over the last 9 months just as it’s sees to have surprised football in general.

The accounting cycle for FFP has changed . It now runs from January to December I am far from sure that the changes to the time over which amortisation will be made till the 24/25 starts . I know its been put out there that changes will be introduced from the summer but at this time it’s not been passed by UEFAs Council so It’s worth keeping an eye on that one

 

[Rnd898]

Maybe they will in time. Two significant reasons is having too many players and having Potter dealing with the project.

This 'too many players' problem will be gone before next season starts You can quote me on that in August if you want.

Maybe we won't get as good values for the players on the chopping block because everyone knows we currently have too many players and will need to trim the squad considerably but as long as we still get rid of them and don't get in deep waters with any FFP issues I couldn't really care less.

The club clearly thought there was some value in bringing in some future long-term core players early despite it resulting in a bloated squad in the short term. That value obviously being that by the time next season starts we'll hope to have these new players fully settled in and that they'll have already developed some kind of chemistry together on the pitch as well which at least on paper should make it much easier for the team to hit the ground running next season instead of having to bed in many players over pre-season and continue their settling in period once the season is already underway. Whether it works out like that or if there'll just be lots of unhappy players, both old and new, who keep stinking up the place is another question and that's where our opinions differ.

As for Potter leading the projet, the jury is still out. Right now it's not looking all that great as far as the manager is concerned and I've seen many of our fans turning on him too but I've said all along I'll reserve my judgement till I see if he can do better with a healty and rejuvenated playing squad or not. We've had James and Chilwell return from their injuries in the last game and we also have Kante, Zakaria and Wes Fofana returning within a couple of weeks, on top of the new signings Enzo/Felix/Mudryk/Madueke/Badiashile who only have a handful of starts between the lot so far and most of whom will play most games going forward. I still wouldn't expect any immediate fireworks given there's many players who haven't played in ages because of their injuries as well as a few new signings who are still settling in, but at the very least we need to start seeing what Potter wants out of them even if it's not honed to perfection yet. If GP still looks out of his depth with those players at his disposal, I would start getting a bit more worried and I'm sure the club leaders would too.

 

[terraloo]

If they're not playing or playing badly who's going to take them , and after how many seasons? Presumably you're not going to stop buying players in two or three years so what happens to those not playing or are clearly not good enough and they've still got many years left on their contracts.

My opinion, but if United had acted like Boehly I'd be horrified. Don't see it working at all but we'll have to wait and see.

Boehly changed the manager. The players he bought them .The players already there were good. That they're where they are now is entirely down to Boehly. Don't see it improving much.

Anyone that has watched Chelsea closely over the last few seasons could see that the squad was in need of a rebuild add to that close season losing Rudiger and Christensen compounded matters.

As for players not playing or playing badly well that’s the conundrum every club faces yes 8 year contracts add another factor but clubs have and always will find away around that. Of course clubs will take a financia hit

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Also he was artificially that cheap due to the state of the economy in Argentina, yes it's fair to question why we didn't have the foresight then but the idea his value has shot up a six figure sum based on six months simply isn't true. Look at the cost for Endrick for a rough idea on what it would have cost to initially sign Enzo from South America if the Argentine economy was better placed.

If the gap between Enzo's real value and the fee that Benfica paid for him was so massive because of "the economy" then he wouldn't have been at Benfica; any other bigger club would have been aware of this market failure and simply offered River Plate 5-10 more millions for him.

His transfermarkt value was about the same as Benfica paid for him and was only 55m in December 2022.

 

[terraloo]

If the gap between Enzo's real value and the fee that Benfica paid for him was so massive because of "the economy" then he wouldn't have been at Benfica; any other bigger club would have been aware of this market failure and simply offered River Plate 5-10 more millions for him.

His transfermarkt value was about the same as Benfica paid for him and was only 55m in December 2022.

By that logic clubs ( plural ) almost certainly have been offering that sum he would have been an absolute bargain but. As we well know Benefica placed a far higher value and yes it’s a fair point to question as to his true value but as we know in any market it’s what the seller will sell fair that determines the sum you have to pay

 

[Rnd898]

If the gap between Enzo's real value and the fee that Benfica paid for him was so massive because of "the economy" then he wouldn't have been at Benfica; any other bigger club would have been aware of this market failure and simply offered River Plate 5-10 more millions for him.

His transfermarkt value was about the same as Benfica paid for him and was only 55m in December 2022.

Would River Plate have sold him for 5-10 more if one of the big boys came knocking? Selling him to Benfica, a club well known for developing young players and selling them on for big profits, for a fair price and including a 25% sell-on clause in the deal was a masterstroke. If they'd sold him to one of the big clubs straight away for 15-20M€ that's all they'd have got but now thanks to the sell-on clause they earned a total of around 45M€.

Either way there's no denying he'd have been available for a fraction of the price we now ended up paying and it's definitely an obscene amount of money to pay for a single player but it's not like this is totally unprecedented. The fee itself is but the phenomenom of a player's value skyrocketing in just a short time really isn't anything new.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Anyone that has watched Chelsea closely over the last few seasons could see that the squad was in need of a rebuild add to that close season losing Rudiger and Christensen compounded matters.

As for players not playing or playing badly well that’s the conundrum every club faces yes 8 year contracts add another factor but clubs have and always will find away around that. Of course clubs will take a financia hit

Everyone talks as if Rudiger and Christensen were the whole team. Half the time they weren't even in the team. And I wouldn't have wanted United to sign them even though we had a horrendous central defence of Maguire and Lindelof - two of our previous big mistakes.

Last summer was the first transfer window for ages where I was really happy with our signings. They were brought in because the manager wanted them to suit his style and they have succeeded. Antony has a little way to go but you know there is a very good player there. EtH will gradually bring in another few players over the next transfer windows. But they'll be the players he wants.

You could buy all the players you want but things have to be done gradually to mould the team into the way the manager wants to play. Three, four or five max at a time. Get the impression that Potter has very little input into who they signed.

Then the manager has to have the personality to deal with all these players. Really don't see it. Even Brighton look better after losing players and the lauded manager.

 

[UsualSuspect]

Half the time they weren't even in the team.

You could buy all the players you want but things have to be done gradually to mould the team into the way the manager wants to play. Three, four or five max at a time. Get the impression that Potter has very little input into who they signed.

You would be wrong on both accounts. Also, the team had been underperforming for a solid 14 months, largely due to an insane amount of injuries but combined with the unbalanced nature of the squad and some consistently poor performers there were only 2 options. Option 1, as you said, introduce new players gradually - but this is most effective when you have a performing team. Option 2, is a quick rebuild as it's not really going to matter in terms of results and you just may end up with a net positive performance-wise. The board chose the latter and rightfully so.

What benefit would it have to add 3 players to a team of - glass legs Pulisic and Ziyech who both want to leave, Havertz unfit for purpose, Mount has been drastically overplayed for 2 seasons and having a horrible season, Kovacic, RLC, and Kante can't keep fit for half the games, and I'll forego mentioning the fitness issues surrounding James, Chilwell and Fofana. Our most fit players were a 38-year-old; and Jorginho and Azpi who should have been sold 2 seasons ago.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

You would be wrong on both accounts. Also, the team had been underperforming for a solid 14 months, largely due to an insane amount of injuries but combined with the unbalanced nature of the squad and some consistently poor performers there were only 2 options. Option 1, as you said, introduce new players gradually - but this is most effective when you have a performing team. Option 2, is a quick rebuild as it's not really going to matter in terms of results and you just may end up with a net positive performance-wise. The board chose the latter and rightfully so.

What benefit would it have to add 3 players to a team of - glass legs Pulisic and Ziyech who both want to leave, Havertz unfit for purpose, Mount has been drastically overplayed for 2 seasons and having a horrible season, Kovacic, RLC, and Kante can't keep fit for half the games, and I'll forego mentioning the fitness issues surrounding James, Chilwell and Fofana. Our most fit players were a 38-year-old; and Jorginho and Azpi who should have been sold 2 seasons ago.

How do you know what Potter's input has been? He didn't join until after the summer window closed. Why do you say they were underperforming when they had good seasons for the last two seasons, maybe they were overperforming because they were a team but the individual players were lesser than the sum of the parts. Now you've got a mishmash of randomly selected players who will take time to gel even if most of them turn out to be good.

A mid-table finish, no cup progress and no Europe is not a quick rebuild, it's a disaster.
It's too early to give a final verdict but nothing suggests this will be a success. Time will tell.

 

[NLunited]

Chelsea is PL version of Barça right now. Spending away its future. Next player signed will be offered a 20 year contract.

 

[Sassy Colin]

@Paul the Wolf I don't know why you're bothering with this bunch of Chavs.

I'm not even sure what they're doing on a United Forum to willy wave their disgusting excess of expenditure on, mostly, crap players.

Why are they here and not on The Shit End?

We spent a lot in the summer, although less than that shower of shite club and we've improved immensely. They've spent even more in the Winter and are just as bad.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

@Paul the Wolf I don't know why you're bothering with this bunch of Chavs.

I'm not even sure what they're doing on a United Forum to willy wave their disgusting excess of expenditure on, mostly, crap players.

Why are they here and not on The Shit End?

We spent a lot in the summer, although less than that shower of shite club and we've improved immensely. They've spent even more in the Winter and are just as bad.

I find it fascinating that such a bad idea is defended so vigorously - if someone had said to any club - this is what we're going to do - supporters of every club would have thought you were insane.

It reminds me of Brexit - which was clearly , from the start , a very bad idea and proved to be so. There is no plan.

 

[Zaphod2319]

 

[WeePat]

@Paul the Wolf I don't know why you're bothering with this bunch of Chavs.

I'm not even sure what they're doing on a United Forum to willy wave their disgusting excess of expenditure on, mostly, crap players.

Why are they here and not on The Shit End?

We spent a lot in the summer, although less than that shower of shite club and we've improved immensely. They've spent even more in the Winter and are just as bad.

Because, unlike some, he is able to have a civil discussion with people he disagrees with without resorting to childish nonsense.

 

[Rnd898]

How do you know what Potter's input has been?

You ask how we know what Potter's input has been and the truth is we don't but neither do you to suggest otherwise.

The fact is our current sporting director Paul Winstanley, who joined in November and was very influential for the signings made in January, is someone Potter worked many years at Brighton with. Now which do you think is more likely:

A) The people who share a long working relationship identified together what the team needs to suit the preferred style?

B) The director went over the manager's head and just signed a bunch of random players without input from the man himself?

You're free to believe or at the very least hope for option B if you want.

Why do you say they were underperforming when they had good seasons for the last two seasons, maybe they were overperforming because they were a team but the individual players were lesser than the sum of the parts.

In attack the likes of Havertz, Pulisic and Ziyech have never had good seasons for us, neither as individuals nor as an overall attacking unit. Since our last title win in fecking 2017 our team has consistently been scoring 30-40 goals a season less in the league than the highest scoring teams, and thats despite us getting an unsustainable amount of goals being chipped in by the defenders. Our attacking play has been stale for years so I wouldn't exactly say we've had good seasons in this regard and the individuals have to share at least a good chunk of the blame for that.

In midfield, for a multitude of seasons N'Golo Kante was the glue that held everything together and made everyone around him play better so there was definitely an element of the collective being greater than the sum of its parts. Now that Kante is getting older and more importantly has been injured all the time (played just two games this season) it's all fallen apart and every weakness of the individuals have been exposed so a midfield overhaul has been a long time coming.

Now you've got a mishmash of randomly selected players who will take time to gel even if most of them turn out to be good.

Our league season is basically dead and was before the January window even started, meaning it just so happens time is something we currently have an abundance of.

The idea is to get these players to gel during whatever's left in this season instead of having to do that next season when there is again a lot more to play for.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

I find it fascinating that such a bad idea is defended so vigorously - if someone had said to any club - this is what we're going to do - supporters of every club would have thought you were insane.

It reminds me of Brexit - which was clearly , from the start , a very bad idea and proved to be so. There is no plan.

Perhaps this is revisionist history, but I don't really think too many people raised a stink after our spending during the summer - it was correctly critiqued for being somewhat scattergun and without a defined strategy, and certain deals were noted to be perhaps not very cost-effective, but there wasn't this sort of fundamental opposition to the approach. But I just don't see how you can compare that to what we did this past winter and think that there's no plan - looking at the numbers it's incredibly obvious.

To help with this, I went ahead and compiled everything into a spreadsheet - I think it's pretty intuitive but ask questions if you like. Obvious caveats - not all players have their wages available so some are educated guesses based on our other young players (e.g. Badiashile on £90k per week, Santos and Fofana on par with Broja's recent extension, etc.). Another major caveat is no add-ons have been included yet - in terms of transfer fees or contract bonuses. Here's a screenshot from my Excel copy:



And here's a link in Google Docs:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1MdPmV2jLi6WvzNgJxz5hKF5eDR8IlBlySTkl05VhDo0/edit?usp=sharing

We've committed less than half of what we did in summer towards annual wages - and when transfer fees are included, our winter signings cumulatively cost ~£48.2m less per year than the summer ones do. In terms of the total commitment over the lengths of all contracts, it's still lower than what we did in the summer.

For me it's quite clear what happened - this summer during the chaos of the takeover, the new owners signed whoever they could to fill the gaps in the team and agreed to crazy contracts because they didn't know any better. This winter in contrast we haven't signed a single player who entered this season aged over 21 yet all with multiple seasons of top flight experience - all of whom will retain significant resale value and won't be especially difficult to move on given their low annual cap hit.

 

[NLunited]

The pieces are there now to put out a good team. Enzo will be your new ‚Kante‘. No more excuses.

 

[WeePat]

 

[SirReginald]

The pieces are there now to put out a good team. Enzo will be your new ‚Kante‘. No more excuses.

Maybe next season. But I don’t expect this team to gel properly until then. It will simply be more individual performances getting us through games. Though I will be happy to be proven wrong.

 

[Rajiztar]

Perhaps this is revisionist history, but I don't really think too many people raised a stink after our spending during the summer - it was correctly critiqued for being somewhat scattergun and without a defined strategy, and certain deals were noted to be perhaps not very cost-effective, but there wasn't this sort of fundamental opposition to the approach. But I just don't see how you can compare that to what we did this past winter and think that there's no plan - looking at the numbers it's incredibly obvious.

To help with this, I went ahead and compiled everything into a spreadsheet - I think it's pretty intuitive but ask questions if you like. Obvious caveats - not all players have their wages available so some are educated guesses based on our other young players (e.g. Badiashile on £90k per week, Santos and Fofana on par with Broja's recent extension, etc.). Another major caveat is no add-ons have been included yet - in terms of transfer fees or contract bonuses. Here's a screenshot from my Excel copy:



And here's a link in Google Docs:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1MdPmV2jLi6WvzNgJxz5hKF5eDR8IlBlySTkl05VhDo0/edit?usp=sharing

We've committed less than half of what we did in summer towards annual wages - and when transfer fees are included, our winter signings cumulatively cost ~£48.2m less per year than the summer ones do. In terms of the total commitment over the lengths of all contracts, it's still lower than what we did in the summer.

For me it's quite clear what happened - this summer during the chaos of the takeover, the new owners signed whoever they could to fill the gaps in the team and agreed to crazy contracts because they didn't know any better. This winter in contrast we haven't signed a single player who entered this season aged over 21 yet all with multiple seasons of top flight experience - all of whom will retain significant resale value and won't be especially difficult to move on given their low annual cap hit.

Indication of decision making process done by professional persons knew about football and finance too. .

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

Indication of decision making process done by professional persons knew about football and finance too. .

Yes 100%. I can understand arguing that a strategy is misguided or unlikely to work - but arguing that there isn't a strategy is bonkers in my opinion. Just look at the data, it's blindingly obvious.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

You ask how we know what Potter's input has been and the truth is we don't but neither do you to suggest otherwise.

The fact is our current sporting director Paul Winstanley, who joined in November and was very influential for the signings made in January, is someone Potter worked many years at Brighton with. Now which do you think is more likely:

A) The people who share a long working relationship identified together what the team needs to suit the preferred style?

B) The director went over the manager's head and just signed a bunch of random players without input from the man himself?

You're free to believe or at the very least hope for option B if you want.



In attack the likes of Havertz, Pulisic and Ziyech have never had good seasons for us, neither as individuals nor as an overall attacking unit. Since our last title win in fecking 2017 our team has consistently been scoring 30-40 goals a season less in the league than the highest scoring teams, and thats despite us getting an unsustainable amount of goals being chipped in by the defenders. Our attacking play has been stale for years so I wouldn't exactly say we've had good seasons in this regard and the individuals have to share at least a good chunk of the blame for that.

In midfield, for a multitude of seasons N'Golo Kante was the glue that held everything together and made everyone around him play better so there was definitely an element of the collective being greater than the sum of its parts. Now that Kante is getting older and more importantly has been injured all the time (played just two games this season) it's all fallen apart and every weakness of the individuals have been exposed so a midfield overhaul has been a long time coming.



Our league season is basically dead and was before the January window even started, meaning it just so happens time is something we currently have an abundance of.

The idea is to get these players to gel during whatever's left in this season instead of having to do that next season when there is again a lot more to play for.

I don't want to keep going over the same ground but the idea or reasoning behind this comes from Boehly or Clearlake or whoever, not from Tuchel or from Potter or Winstanley. Potter nor Winstanley obviously did not have any input into the summer signings. Tuchel obviously never had any input into the winter signings.

So all the signings were done with not one single strategy in mind unless it was Boehly. The financial side of it is something else. How you keep the value of a player when he's not playing I'm not sure. Keeping him happy neither and if he's not getting playing time or earning salaries like other players in other clubs how long can you keep them. If he doesn't play he doesn't earn the bonuses.

I don't know, but it looks like Boehly bought the summer signings and Tuchel was not too happy. Now Potter has got either Tuchel's signings or Boehly's signings from the summer plus the winter signings which may or may not have anything to do with Potter. Plus the original players and now all the players returning from injury and have 17 league games left and maybe 2 or 4 CL games. In the summer Boehly will obviously want to sign more players because despite all the signings so far the team doesn't look improved.

Your season wasn't dead a few games into the season when Tuchel was sacked. It is now and has probably killed next season as well.

I'm expecting Rees-Mogg to appear on the BBC to announce that Chelsea will see the benefits in 50 years.

 

[Rajiztar]

Yes 100%. I can understand arguing that a strategy is misguided or unlikely to work - but arguing that there isn't a strategy is bonkers in my opinion. Just look at the data, it's blindingly obvious.

Little data only available but badiashile,Felix,mudryk,madueke and fofana all of their performances were encouraging. Badiashile impressed me more. Cl without him very disappointing.

 

[Zaphod2319]

I don't want to keep going over the same ground but the idea or reasoning behind this comes from Boehly or Clearlake or whoever, not from Tuchel or from Potter or Winstanley. Potter nor Winstanley obviously did not have any input into the summer signings. Tuchel obviously never had any input into the winter signings.

So all the signings were done with not one single strategy in mind unless it was Boehly. The financial side of it is something else. How you keep the value of a player when he's not playing I'm not sure. Keeping him happy neither and if he's not getting playing time or earning salaries like other players in other clubs how long can you keep them. If he doesn't play he doesn't earn the bonuses.

I don't know, but it looks like Boehly bought the summer signings and Tuchel was not too happy. Now Potter has got either Tuchel's signings or Boehly's signings from the summer plus the winter signings which may or may not have anything to do with Potter. Plus the original players and now all the players returning from injury and have 17 league games left and maybe 2 or 4 CL games. In the summer Boehly will obviously want to sign more players because despite all the signings so far the team doesn't look improved.

Your season wasn't dead a few games into the season when Tuchel was sacked. It is now and has probably killed next season as well.

I'm expecting Rees-Mogg to appear on the BBC to announce that Chelsea will see the benefits in 50 years.

All this was really well documented so I guess this is just a theory that you have without looking into what was happening or the timeline of the recruiting staff that was brought in to Chelsea. Tuchel absolutely had input into the people bought in the summer. One of the points of contention was the minimal effort he gave to giving his input on a player they were targeting. It got to the point that he would just give a thumbs up or thumbs down on the app they used to communicate. It is one of the reasons that the relationship between Tuchel and the new owners broke down. Potter brought in his recruiting people with him. Vival, Stewart, Shields, and Winstanley have all been involving Potter. To think that his staff and the other people brought in leave him out of recruitment decisions is bonkers. All of them have a clear type of player they are looking to bring in.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

I don't want to keep going over the same ground but the idea or reasoning behind this comes from Boehly or Clearlake or whoever, not from Tuchel or from Potter or Winstanley. Potter nor Winstanley obviously did not have any input into the summer signings. Tuchel obviously never had any input into the winter signings.

So all the signings were done with not one single strategy in mind unless it was Boehly. The financial side of it is something else. How you keep the value of a player when he's not playing I'm not sure. Keeping him happy neither and if he's not getting playing time or earning salaries like other players in other clubs how long can you keep them. If he doesn't play he doesn't earn the bonuses.

I don't know, but it looks like Boehly bought the summer signings and Tuchel was not too happy. Now Potter has got either Tuchel's signings or Boehly's signings from the summer plus the winter signings which may or may not have anything to do with Potter. Plus the original players and now all the players returning from injury and have 17 league games left and maybe 2 or 4 CL games. In the summer Boehly will obviously want to sign more players because despite all the signings so far the team doesn't look improved.

Your season wasn't dead a few games into the season when Tuchel was sacked. It is now and has probably killed next season as well.

I'm expecting Rees-Mogg to appear on the BBC to announce that Chelsea will see the benefits in 50 years.

Why would Potter have nothing to do with the recruitment team that we brought in specifically because they had worked with him previously?

 

[Paul the Wolf]

All this was really well documented so I guess this is just a theory that you have without looking into what was happening or the timeline of the recruiting staff that was brought in to Chelsea. Tuchel absolutely had input into the people bought in the summer. One of the points of contention was the minimal effort he gave to giving his input on a player they were targeting. It got to the point that he would just give a thumbs up or thumbs down on the app they used to communicate. It is one of the reasons that the relationship between Tuchel and the new owners broke down. Potter brought in his recruiting people with him. Vival, Stewart, Shields, and Winstanley have all been involving Potter. To think that his staff and the other people brought in leave him out of recruitment decisions is bonkers. All of them have a clear type of player they are looking to bring in.

You've missed my point. Even if Potter had a say in the winter signings and Tuchel had a say in the summer signings they are two different managers with different ideas. Maybe Potter doesn't want all the Tuchel signings. Why did Boehly sign all those players in the summer for vast amounts of money if he sacked Tuchel in early September? It makes zero sense and then, Potter is without doubt a downgrade on Tuchel. So it's not one strategy.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

You've missed my point. Even if Potter had a say in the winter signings and Tuchel had a say in the summer signings they are two different managers with different ideas. Maybe Potter doesn't want all the Tuchel signings. Why did Boehly sign all those players in the summer for vast amounts of money if he sacked Tuchel in early September? It makes zero sense and then, Potter is without doubt a downgrade on Tuchel. So it's not one strategy.

No one is arguing that it's one strategy across both windows?

Again - it's very obvious that in the summer things were completely chaotic and deals were made that were sub-optimal. What you and others have tried to argue is that there is no strategy in place based on our winter signings - which pretty clearly couldn't be further from the truth as they all fit the same profile.

 

[Zaphod2319]

You've missed my point. Even if Potter had a say in the winter signings and Tuchel had a say in the summer signings they are two different managers with different ideas. Maybe Potter doesn't want all the Tuchel signings. Why did Boehly sign all those players in the summer for vast amounts of money if he sacked Tuchel in early September? It makes zero sense and then, Potter is without doubt a downgrade on Tuchel. So it's not one strategy.

If you are involving different managers, of course it will be different. I have not seen anyone say differently? Tuchel seemed to prefer established players and often players he had personal experience with. Potter is going to be different. Potter does not have the resume that Tuchel has, but his story is still being written. I am much more excited about our recruiting going after diamonds in the rough that could get much better or bust. Our success with bringing players in that are at the peak of their career has been very hit or miss and when it is a miss, there is no getting rid of them.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

No one is arguing that it's one strategy across both windows?

Again - it's very obvious that in the summer things were completely chaotic and deals were made that were sub-optimal. What you and others have tried to argue is that there is no strategy in place based on our winter signings - which pretty clearly couldn't be further from the truth as they all fit the same profile.

That makes it even worse. You're saying that they had no idea what they were doing in the summer and the excuses for signing all those players by the posters on here was because Rudiger and Christiansen left on frees.

Signing Enzo looks like - oh he played a couple of good games in the WC , let's sign him; what's more we'll pay over and above the release clause. What?

 

[Paul the Wolf]

If you are involving different managers, of course it will be different. I have not seen anyone say differently? Tuchel seemed to prefer established players and often players he had personal experience with. Potter is going to be different. Potter does not have the resume that Tuchel has, but his story is still being written. I am much more excited about our recruiting going after diamonds in the rough that could get much better or bust. Our success with bringing players in that are at the peak of their career has been very hit or miss and when it is a miss, there is no getting rid of them.

I was told over and over again that there was one clear strategy. Now there isn't. Spending all this money for an unproved manager who has only managed smallish clubs with a 31% win rate sounds even worse than us appointing Moyes to replace Fergie.

I'm not getting convinced.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

That makes it even worse. You're saying that they had no idea what they were doing in the summer and the excuses for signing all those players by the posters on here was because Rudiger and Christiansen left on frees.

Signing Enzo looks like - oh he played a couple of good games in the WC , let's sign him; what's more we'll pay over and above the release clause. What?

I mean, yes? Clearly we were not operating from a position of strength in the summer and we signed players willy-nilly to plug gaps. Again - no one is arguing that there was/is a comprehensive strategy covering the summer and winter periods. But it's very obvious that now a strategy has been implemented.

Respectfully you seem to be poorly informed over the Enzo transfer. His profile is as good as any young midfielder in the world's bar Bellingham - and we ultimately paid €1m more than the release clause to allow for a more favourable payment structure and avoid the colossal tax and FFP penalties associated with actually triggering the clause.

Sure - €1m is a lot in a vacuum but it hardly constitutes us paying "over and above" when you consider the fact that we avoided something like €40m in taxes and would not have been able to amortise Enzo's contract making it impossible to comply with FFP.