There seems little point in discussing potential targets until we know whether the ownership situation is resolved because, if it ends up being the Glazers staying, it will be something like Weghorst and Tielemans.
What do we still need? Aka The never ending story
- Thread starter Devil may care
- Start date
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Two strikers
Two central midfielders
Right Back
Centre Back
Keeper
That is what I feel our side needs next season, feek currently our squad is 7players short of challenging for major silverware....but I dont think we need to sign seven and I think the outgoings could and should cover a lot of the outlay this summer:
Out
All players currently here on loan
Henderson
Bailly
Jones
Maguire
Telles
Dalot
Williams
Tuanzabe
McTominay
VDB
Elanga
Martial
The one may be contentious there is DAlot. For me neither of our right backs have proven themselves to be a bonafide number one right back here, despite both having decent seasons/ DAlot is average defensively and decent going forward....that can be massively improved on in a starting right back. Bissaka is average going forward and has positional lapses....but 1 v 1 is as good as anyone, that is something worth holding on to as a second choice for me.
Wont even mention fees on the outgoings as always brings up arguments of "so and so isnt even worth £5m" etc etc, but suffice to say, its a good amount of money coming in, which we havent done bar a couple of sales individually (not for profit) for a long time.
As for the imcomings.
GK - I still rate DeGea and am not 100% convinced there is a ready made replacement tha is a serious upgrade able to handle the pressure. Ive seen little of the foreign youngsters mentioned, but I feel an imcoming keeper should be as competition for now. People can say this didnt work with Henderson....for me DeGea was at his worst during that spell and Henderson was never good enough anyway, so think it would be different.
CB - Varane/Martinez has looked a very good partnership but hasnt happened often enough. Shaw has looked very good as a left sided cb....but it isnt Martinez we need better cover for, its Varane. A young up and coming quality CB to compete and cover the niggle ainjury absenses of Varane definately brings us more point next season. Kim Man Jae is the big name with the release clause, I feel there are lots of good young cb at the moment, sadly a lot of them are left sided....but still plenty, Kotchap for example I like at SOuthampton.
RB - I think we require a swashbuckling attacking full back, we already have the 1 v 1 defensive one in Bissaka and Dalot has done well but I feel is over rated going forward and average defensively. Not seen a great deal of him but with Chelsea signign the Lyon RB and Lvaramentos injury woes.....for me it has to be Vanderson, so exciting going forward and can imagine him linking up so well with our rw options
2 x CM - Lot of people mentioning a back up to Casemeiro, competition for Eriksen and competition for Fernandes, so maybe three. Personally I think Mainoo can come through as the back up to Casemeiro. I also feel Eriksen should be further forward and be THE competition to Fernandes. For me Hannibale and Fred should be the competition for a new signing in CM. DeJong, Bellingham are the obvious answers....both cost a lot and neither actually seem intent to come here. Rice is also expensive and though far better going forward than some give him credit for....I feel a more technical box to box player is needed. I also dont think we can spend £100m on a cm when we prob have to on a striker. Caqueret, Kmbempe Thuram are two very good young players at probably relatively reasonable fees in todays market that can add to us both defensively and offensively at the same time over our current options alongside Casemeiro. So I think we only need to sign one of thes types.
2 CF - Well a lot of this is dependant on the Greenwood decision, does he come back, with the time out, backlash and mental pressure....can he even come back anywhere near the same player? If he doesnt then though I dont rate him, somebod like Dembele on a free as a second striker isnt such a bad thing....just not a really old stop gap signign like we have done....or one without any quality liek Weighorst....I would prefer us to sign a cheaper SOuth AMerican as an excitign wil card...But we have to make a real quality CF signing if not a Kane, Omishen, Vlahovic....someone with that ability.
Whether we an manage this is another thing. I think we are looking at a £250-300m spend to get things right this summer, and that is being fairly frugal bar the CF signing and bottom line spend too. We havent spent near that before in a window, so maybe unrealistic....but a new board and a manager with a clear vision....maybe we may actualyl be realistic in terms of our sales this summer and raise more transfer fees from sales than we ever have before
Two central midfielders
Right Back
Centre Back
Keeper
That is what I feel our side needs next season, feek currently our squad is 7players short of challenging for major silverware....but I dont think we need to sign seven and I think the outgoings could and should cover a lot of the outlay this summer:
Out
All players currently here on loan
Henderson
Bailly
Jones
Maguire
Telles
Dalot
Williams
Tuanzabe
McTominay
VDB
Elanga
Martial
The one may be contentious there is DAlot. For me neither of our right backs have proven themselves to be a bonafide number one right back here, despite both having decent seasons/ DAlot is average defensively and decent going forward....that can be massively improved on in a starting right back. Bissaka is average going forward and has positional lapses....but 1 v 1 is as good as anyone, that is something worth holding on to as a second choice for me.
Wont even mention fees on the outgoings as always brings up arguments of "so and so isnt even worth £5m" etc etc, but suffice to say, its a good amount of money coming in, which we havent done bar a couple of sales individually (not for profit) for a long time.
As for the imcomings.
GK - I still rate DeGea and am not 100% convinced there is a ready made replacement tha is a serious upgrade able to handle the pressure. Ive seen little of the foreign youngsters mentioned, but I feel an imcoming keeper should be as competition for now. People can say this didnt work with Henderson....for me DeGea was at his worst during that spell and Henderson was never good enough anyway, so think it would be different.
CB - Varane/Martinez has looked a very good partnership but hasnt happened often enough. Shaw has looked very good as a left sided cb....but it isnt Martinez we need better cover for, its Varane. A young up and coming quality CB to compete and cover the niggle ainjury absenses of Varane definately brings us more point next season. Kim Man Jae is the big name with the release clause, I feel there are lots of good young cb at the moment, sadly a lot of them are left sided....but still plenty, Kotchap for example I like at SOuthampton.
RB - I think we require a swashbuckling attacking full back, we already have the 1 v 1 defensive one in Bissaka and Dalot has done well but I feel is over rated going forward and average defensively. Not seen a great deal of him but with Chelsea signign the Lyon RB and Lvaramentos injury woes.....for me it has to be Vanderson, so exciting going forward and can imagine him linking up so well with our rw options
2 x CM - Lot of people mentioning a back up to Casemeiro, competition for Eriksen and competition for Fernandes, so maybe three. Personally I think Mainoo can come through as the back up to Casemeiro. I also feel Eriksen should be further forward and be THE competition to Fernandes. For me Hannibale and Fred should be the competition for a new signing in CM. DeJong, Bellingham are the obvious answers....both cost a lot and neither actually seem intent to come here. Rice is also expensive and though far better going forward than some give him credit for....I feel a more technical box to box player is needed. I also dont think we can spend £100m on a cm when we prob have to on a striker. Caqueret, Kmbempe Thuram are two very good young players at probably relatively reasonable fees in todays market that can add to us both defensively and offensively at the same time over our current options alongside Casemeiro. So I think we only need to sign one of thes types.
2 CF - Well a lot of this is dependant on the Greenwood decision, does he come back, with the time out, backlash and mental pressure....can he even come back anywhere near the same player? If he doesnt then though I dont rate him, somebod like Dembele on a free as a second striker isnt such a bad thing....just not a really old stop gap signign like we have done....or one without any quality liek Weighorst....I would prefer us to sign a cheaper SOuth AMerican as an excitign wil card...But we have to make a real quality CF signing if not a Kane, Omishen, Vlahovic....someone with that ability.
Whether we an manage this is another thing. I think we are looking at a £250-300m spend to get things right this summer, and that is being fairly frugal bar the CF signing and bottom line spend too. We havent spent near that before in a window, so maybe unrealistic....but a new board and a manager with a clear vision....maybe we may actualyl be realistic in terms of our sales this summer and raise more transfer fees from sales than we ever have before
The actual amount that we spend on incomings will likely depend on what happens with the ownerships. So no idea how much we'll be looking to spend in terms of actual targets.
But as regards the positions of the incomings, then obviously the #9 role is the main one and the one we'll spend the most on. After that, I'd like us to address the central midfield options - hopefully, somehow, offload VDB and McTominay. And maybe make Sabitzer permanent and bring in an understudy DM for Casemiro. The expensive ball playing CM in the De Jong mould as an upgrade on Eriksen will probably have to wait for another window (with the amount we'll need to spend on a #9).
The first choice CB's are sorted. But I guess some business may have to be done with the understudies - depending on how much Lindelof and Maguire want to leave, or how much they and ETH are happy for them to stay? So there may be an outgoing and incoming in the understudy role.
An upgrade at RB is an option, but I can't see much other business really*. Unless we also decide to bring in an alternative understudy #9 and try to move on Martial? But I imagine we'll just have the one big signing and, at most, a Weghorst type addition who'll be happy to be a squad player.
*There's the GK situation, but I'm really not sure what's likely to happen with that, or even what I'd prefer?
But as regards the positions of the incomings, then obviously the #9 role is the main one and the one we'll spend the most on. After that, I'd like us to address the central midfield options - hopefully, somehow, offload VDB and McTominay. And maybe make Sabitzer permanent and bring in an understudy DM for Casemiro. The expensive ball playing CM in the De Jong mould as an upgrade on Eriksen will probably have to wait for another window (with the amount we'll need to spend on a #9).
The first choice CB's are sorted. But I guess some business may have to be done with the understudies - depending on how much Lindelof and Maguire want to leave, or how much they and ETH are happy for them to stay? So there may be an outgoing and incoming in the understudy role.
An upgrade at RB is an option, but I can't see much other business really*. Unless we also decide to bring in an alternative understudy #9 and try to move on Martial? But I imagine we'll just have the one big signing and, at most, a Weghorst type addition who'll be happy to be a squad player.
*There's the GK situation, but I'm really not sure what's likely to happen with that, or even what I'd prefer?
I think we should be looking at Maignon as GK, on the cusp of being one of the very best
What we Need ;
- New Owners
- A Total clear out of 8-10 players (Henderson, Teles, Bailey, Tuanzebe, S Mctominay, Jones, Maguire, VDB, A Elanga)
- Solid Loans to PL teams for (A Dialo, F Pellistri, Z IQbal , C Savage)
- New Contracts for (Rashford, Shaw and Garnaucho)
- A New Director of Football
- Seven new players ; A young GK(D Raya), CB (K Min Jae), Rabiot (CM), Sabitzer (CM), Number 10 (M Kudas) , CF (V Osimhen) , Back up striker (K Muani or E Ferguson)
What we will get :
- The Glaziers !
- New Owners
- A Total clear out of 8-10 players (Henderson, Teles, Bailey, Tuanzebe, S Mctominay, Jones, Maguire, VDB, A Elanga)
- Solid Loans to PL teams for (A Dialo, F Pellistri, Z IQbal , C Savage)
- New Contracts for (Rashford, Shaw and Garnaucho)
- A New Director of Football
- Seven new players ; A young GK(D Raya), CB (K Min Jae), Rabiot (CM), Sabitzer (CM), Number 10 (M Kudas) , CF (V Osimhen) , Back up striker (K Muani or E Ferguson)
What we will get :
- The Glaziers !
In order of preference:
GK: Maignan, Diogo Costa, Raya + Verbruggen, Yehvann Diouf, Lafont
RB: Geertruida, Vanderson
RCB: Omari, Tomás Araújo
LCB: Branthwaite, Lukeba
DM/CM: Ugarte, Caicedo, Caqueret, André, Koné, Palacios
RW/AM: Kudus, J. Bakayoko
FW: Muani, Ramos, M. Thuram, Ferguson, Højlund, J. David
Maignan, Muani and Caicedo are mostly there because I like them, I think their clubs will demand too much. The rest should be attainable. The CBs are young players with a lot of potential that could develop behind Varane and Martinez. André, Koné and Palacios are players that would need to time to adjust, whereas Ugarte and Caqueret should be able to have an immediate impact on our midfield. Kudus and Bakajoko are excellent dribblers and should provide competition for Antony. I think both Diallo and Pellistri need another loan. Furthermore Diallo similar to Sancho could be a player that ten Hag simply doesn't like as a winger and if anything sees more centrally. Kudus' versatility could be a much needed bonus. There are some players here I haven't seen enough of, however I've read mostly good things and their stats look promising, namely Verbruggen, Diouf, Araújo, André and Højlund.
I am not entirely convinced that spending a lot of money for Muani or Ramos makes sense, with everything else we need to do, to improve our squad, which is why I think Thuram would make sense coupled with a young striker like Højlund.
GK: Maignan, Diogo Costa, Raya + Verbruggen, Yehvann Diouf, Lafont
RB: Geertruida, Vanderson
RCB: Omari, Tomás Araújo
LCB: Branthwaite, Lukeba
DM/CM: Ugarte, Caicedo, Caqueret, André, Koné, Palacios
RW/AM: Kudus, J. Bakayoko
FW: Muani, Ramos, M. Thuram, Ferguson, Højlund, J. David
Maignan, Muani and Caicedo are mostly there because I like them, I think their clubs will demand too much. The rest should be attainable. The CBs are young players with a lot of potential that could develop behind Varane and Martinez. André, Koné and Palacios are players that would need to time to adjust, whereas Ugarte and Caqueret should be able to have an immediate impact on our midfield. Kudus and Bakajoko are excellent dribblers and should provide competition for Antony. I think both Diallo and Pellistri need another loan. Furthermore Diallo similar to Sancho could be a player that ten Hag simply doesn't like as a winger and if anything sees more centrally. Kudus' versatility could be a much needed bonus. There are some players here I haven't seen enough of, however I've read mostly good things and their stats look promising, namely Verbruggen, Diouf, Araújo, André and Højlund.
I am not entirely convinced that spending a lot of money for Muani or Ramos makes sense, with everything else we need to do, to improve our squad, which is why I think Thuram would make sense coupled with a young striker like Højlund.
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The most important thing for me is for us to have a squad that is well adept at keeping the ball.
Caicedo - 70m
Ramos - 85m
cheap young keeper - 20m
Timber - 50m
Ramos
Rashford Sancho Bruno
Caicedo Casemiro
Shaw Martinez Varane Timber
DDG
Caicedo - 70m
Ramos - 85m
cheap young keeper - 20m
Timber - 50m
Ramos
Rashford Sancho Bruno
Caicedo Casemiro
Shaw Martinez Varane Timber
DDG
Don't you think it would be ideal to sign a midfielder who is a ball retention specialist and an elite passer instead of Caicedo if you want to have a squad who keeps the ball? Caicedo isn't particularly known for these two traits.
Why do we need a new Dof when we have a perfectly capable one?
If I was to focus on just young players to sign..
GK: Bart Verbruggen
RB: Frimpong
CM: Kokcu
CF: Ferguson
I'm hoping we can sign Evan Ferguson, because he seems like a forward that has all the traits to go to the very top.
GK: Bart Verbruggen
RB: Frimpong
CM: Kokcu
CF: Ferguson
I'm hoping we can sign Evan Ferguson, because he seems like a forward that has all the traits to go to the very top.
And an Irishman to boot!
Something that I didn't see in this thread and needs to be said is :
Our all midfield squad are in their 30's or close to it including Sabi. All of them have maybe 3, 4 years at top level(maybe even more for Casimiro)
We really need to start bringing young quality prospects because if we don't - we'll need to replace all of them in 1 or 2 summers.
Our all midfield squad are in their 30's or close to it including Sabi. All of them have maybe 3, 4 years at top level(maybe even more for Casimiro)
We really need to start bringing young quality prospects because if we don't - we'll need to replace all of them in 1 or 2 summers.
Absolutely bang on about squad needing 7 players which is made up of 4 first XI (GK,RB,CM,ST) and 3 squad (CB,DM,ST). Ideally we get new ownership sorted and are able to get 5 of these which I know sounds ambitious.
I don't really want us to be a possession team per say...more so that we stop losing the ball carelessly with unnecessary long balls and poor passes. I think Caicedo offers that simplicity, and with Sancho moved to the middle, it should tame down the frequent possession loss. But the problem with a Sancho- Caicedo- Casemiro midfield is that it might be a bit too passive. So I'll replace Caicedo with Kovacic
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What kind of player do you think Caicedo is exactly? I wouldn't have ever described him as passive.
Off the ball he's far from passive. When on the ball he keeps things simple. Doesn't go for the risky pass but would make the forward pass when available. Also doesn't tend to hold on to the ball. Maybe passive was the wrong word. I meant Casemiro and Caicedo aren't really ball carriers
For the central midfield, I would go for Mateo Kovacic, Enzo Le Fee or ManuKone. All three should be not too expensive (even Kovacic, as Chelsea need money and he has one year left on his contract).
The Striking positions are the most important but clearly followed by the Midfield area. We started the season thinking we might need one of each in the summer, now it’s clearly obvious we need two of both and we don’t have huge money
So here’s my options which can be done and don’t cost a fortune;
DM/CM - A Rabiot (Free)
CM/AM - M Sabitzer (20M) or M Kudas (45M)
CFW - I Toney (55M)
Versatile Striker - R Hojlund (45M)
All decent ages and Ivan Toney sorts the HG issue out too plus whilst he’s serving a likely 10 match ban we can use R Hojlund with Martial still being around as no one’s buying him full stop.
I don’t think we can get Kane because Levy will just be impossible to deal with an Osimhen will be £130-150m, the sort of money we could get all 4 players for plus we will waste so much time pursuing these two players, wasting valuable time.
Brentford will want £80m for Toney normally but he has 2 years left on his contract and will be out for 2-3 months they might as well take the money and cut their losses?
I am with you. But the situation is a bit saved by them trying to get in a mechanism where DDGs salary is reduced if he doesn’t play more than a certain amount of games in a year. 200k a week is “just” 10m per season.
I am also concerned, because we are of course not resigning DDG and then ‘out-of-the-blue’ bringing in one of the top candidates for the starting position.
But — I don’t think DDG is the biggest weakness on our team. We have no depth at all at several positions. The striker position must be mentioned. And if money is tight, if spending will be limited to 150-200m, do you put 80-85m of those between the pipes to upgrade DDG? (If you say ‘yes’, I don’t think it’s wrong per se, but if DDG choose differently, I can see that too).
And ultimately, I would be very surprised if DDG starts for us in August 2024.
It seems very likely that De Gea will renew his contract.
With that in mind I would think the obvious areas to address in the first eleven are CF, CM and RB (which is an area we reportedly wanted to address last summer anyway). But then we also need a goalkeeper signing of some description even if De Gea stays given the situation of our backups, and quite probably a CB signing too if Maguire/Lindelof leave.
When you consider the limited scope to spend and the fact that we could quite justifiably "need" to sign a CF, CM, RB, CB and GK this summer anyway, a decision to keep De Gea for now is more justifiable. I would prefer he was replaced but it was always likely to be borderline whether it was this summer or not.
I probably didn't have LB or LCB signings as high a priority as ETH seemed to last summer either and those have worked well, so I'm not overly perturbed if he thinks problem x should be fixed before problem y. Not like I don't think we have plenty of areas to strengthen anyway.
With that in mind I would think the obvious areas to address in the first eleven are CF, CM and RB (which is an area we reportedly wanted to address last summer anyway). But then we also need a goalkeeper signing of some description even if De Gea stays given the situation of our backups, and quite probably a CB signing too if Maguire/Lindelof leave.
When you consider the limited scope to spend and the fact that we could quite justifiably "need" to sign a CF, CM, RB, CB and GK this summer anyway, a decision to keep De Gea for now is more justifiable. I would prefer he was replaced but it was always likely to be borderline whether it was this summer or not.
I probably didn't have LB or LCB signings as high a priority as ETH seemed to last summer either and those have worked well, so I'm not overly perturbed if he thinks problem x should be fixed before problem y. Not like I don't think we have plenty of areas to strengthen anyway.
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Why spend 80-85m on gk?
There are multiple sub40m options that are massive improvements on De Gea, including Raya who is PL proven.
Do these guys have that low release clauses? Hopefully Murtough isn’t in charge this summer, but at least as long he is in charge — I would be a little cautious expecting them to not get hosed.
I am really concerned about going forward with DDG next season — especially against the better teams.
Why would you hope Murtough is not in charge?
Kane
Bellingham
That’s it.
We all worry when Casimero is injured, we have Bruno and Erickson but McT, Fred, VDB aren’t at the very top level.
We’ve all watched Weghorst miss chance after chance that Kane and Haaland would have buried.
With FFP If we got these two or similar we’d be done and the rest of the squad can cope. We’ll get more out of Anthony next season, hopefully Gernacho will push on and Pellestri too. Then there’s the issue of can Sancho be the poster we thought we’d bought, seeing Rashford explode this season I won’t write him off.
Unless we lose a right back or Maguire I think these two will do.
Bellingham
That’s it.
We all worry when Casimero is injured, we have Bruno and Erickson but McT, Fred, VDB aren’t at the very top level.
We’ve all watched Weghorst miss chance after chance that Kane and Haaland would have buried.
With FFP If we got these two or similar we’d be done and the rest of the squad can cope. We’ll get more out of Anthony next season, hopefully Gernacho will push on and Pellestri too. Then there’s the issue of can Sancho be the poster we thought we’d bought, seeing Rashford explode this season I won’t write him off.
Unless we lose a right back or Maguire I think these two will do.
Possibly due to the poster believing that Murtough was in charge of transfer negotiations last season. But it was actually Matt Judge, and this time around it will be Matt Hargreaves who will be leading on transfer negotiations. And then people can critique Murtough's decisions, because Hargreaves has been brought in by Murtough.
Echeverri from River Plate. 17 years of age. Sign him now or latyer for an insane amount
Already trained with ARgentina's first squad.
In any case, I think that the topic of negotiations is so complex and opaque for us, fans, that it is ridiculous to blame/praise individuals. For example, Antony's price tag. If Ajax were determined not to sell for a penny less than the price we paid and Ten Hag was determined to have him last summer, there isn't a negotiator in this world to get him for less.
There are so many factors that we have zero information about. I am always very, very hesitant to throw labels or evaluate a top professional's performance, especially in context which is foreign to me.
But we do know who was in charge of transfer negotiations last summer and that was Matt Judge. And I agree about the complexities that are involved when it comes to negotiations. Even Bayern Munich bring in a third party when it comes to complex negotiations from what I've read.
And according to the reputable sources who report on the club, we had a transfer budget of £120m going into the summer window of 2022. And that only changed when we lost our first two games and the owners were put under pressure.
And the best outlet to learn about the structural side of a foothall club is the transfer ground guru, here in the UK. Their entire existence revolves around how things develop on the structural side of football clubs. They regularly have performance analysts, scouts, data scientists, DoFs etc on their podcasts.
All of these help to draw a blurry and vague map of the land. At best they also add some rumour-level assumptions, hearsay and guesses around actual cases but do not give anything remotely close to facts or a full picture of what has been and is going on when it comes to the transfer windows, transfer strategy or negotiations.
We don't need to know the intricate details that's not important imo. What's important is to know who is in charge and hence who the buck stops with. Erik ten Hag is the head coach and the buck stops with him because he's brought the people in to make up his backroom staff.
John Murtough will also be responsible for the structure he's created. But Matt Judge wasn't part of his structure but rather part of structure of the previous regime.
If you think under new owners they will not want to replace everyone at Director level your clearly do not understand how a takeover works, Murtourgh is not terrible by any means but who ever buys the club will want their own people in charge.
Not laughing at you, mate.A negotiator isn't the one that making decision how much a player should cost, or whether to buy or not. Negotiator is just a middle man.
A transfer negotiator is directly involved in negotiations and Matt Judge was the guy that was directly contacted by agents per reports and per Patrice Evra.
I don't know how transfer works, but in other field of works, negotiator is not a decision maker. They're just a middleman.
But i don't know. His role seems like pretty limited to put in blame of any absurd price on players, or who to buy. Did he decide of who to buy? Did he have a final say of how much we spend on any player? Did he decide on players wages and contract length?
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The selling club places a sporting value on the player they want to sell. And the lead negotiator for the buying club has to negotiate against the value that has been placed on the player.
If United are selling a player, then Murtough will be the one who places a Sporting value on the player being sold. Like for example Dan James, Jimmy Garner and Andreas Pereira. But it will be the chief negotiator who will be leading on negotiations. Matt Hargreaves who has recently been brought to the club is said to be taking a lead on negotiations.
And the above information I've heard routinely on transfer ground guru podcasts who are known to be well versed when it comes to breaking down a clubs football structure.
Since there are so many external factors that influence on things like transfers and contract renewals, I am not comfortable evaluating professionals purely on the scarce publicly known information.
And all of the above may mean nothing if the selling club has both the resolve and negotiation power to not accept anything below their asking price, and the manager is resolved to get his desired target, no matter the price.