Apart from their rhetoric, I'm not sure if there is any difference between those mentioned and Starmer's shadow cabinet.
Westminster Politics
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Apart from their rhetoric, I'm not sure if there is any difference between those mentioned and Starmer's shadow cabinet.
Yep 9.6 percent vote share increased from Millibands government. The most by any labour leader since pre war times.
Yet corbyns the electoral cancer.. The 2019 election was won on brexit not manifestos. Corbyns lead would just be as big if not bigger now. Fortunately for starmer the right wing media seem to quite like him so at least he probably won't have the same media manipulation to go up against. That in itself is worrying.
Yvette Cooper certainly has alot of blood on her hands with welfare changes she made. And she's not disfamiliar with taking advantage of expenses for financial gain either.
In her defence though she does speak bloody well in Westminster and actually has a brain. Not a fan of her history but she's 100x the person braverman is.
The point is though she shouldn't be immune from criticism. Better than a tory she is though.
Labour just seems like a Tory Lite to me right now. A better prospect than the Tories no doubt, but not a party that will ultimately do much good either.
Yvette Cooper is one of the most competent politians in Westminster. And you're right, she'd be many levels above Braverman, or any Tory cabinet minster, including PMs in terms of ability. Not a particular high bar at the minute.
There is far more to politics than just being good at it though. The acid test is what would she do different to Braverman? Given her track record, probably not a lot.
Yes, but he LOST - against the worst Tory campaign in living memory. And typically Labour drew the wrong conclusions, ignored the massive, MASSIVE problem of their leadership, doubled down and almost took the party out as an electoral force. You'd think a little bit of humility would be nice from that side? It's not Starmer who led the party to being almost extinguished is it? So maybe some credibility is due for the turnaround?
Corbyn had fans who didn't want to look facts in the eye. And still don't.
That lead is party because Starmer has kicked out the people who were electoral poison. The evidence of just how repellent Corbyn was to potential voters in the last election is clear.
How marvellous.
Ha! My sides are splitting.
This some serious projection tbf
There are those that vote Tory because they feel it’s in their best interest.
He lost because people didn't trust or like him. And it was really hard to model that personal dislike and distrust in advance.
Starmer is far too far right for my liking, and almost as authoritarian as corbyn/the tories, but he's at least an improvement and electable.
I quite like her, but she's certainly no Margaret Beckett. She tends to go with her party flow.
From the outside looking in if corbyn is unelectable after Boris Johnson and Lizz Truss then you need to change how your elections work. I think its made up bolox but if i was to take it seriously then your electoral system is totally fecking broken
I mean, it is broken. We use first past the post, meaning a government can win a majority and do whatever they want for 5 years (thanks to no codified constitution) with around 12-13m votes, out of a population of 67m or so.
Starmer is considerably more authoritarian than Corbyn. So much so that the first word that I'd use to describe him is authoritarian.
Yeah, i guess you have the play the system as it exists. Just sounds like a bizarre statement when he has decades of being elected, widespread support for all the policies hes advocating for and Lizz Truss as prime minister.
Electoral reform really should be the no1 public issue that's hammered home incessantly.
Hardly the worst tory campaign in living memory given that the tories called a snap election to try and get a larger majority.
And then considering it was the highest vote share increase for any labour leader since the war. I do find it quite surprising that you continue to push this "took the party out as an electoral force". Unless your referencing Millibands campaign and I'm misunderstanding something here? Or are you referencing 2019, the campaign about brexit?
Please share them. Your facts seem to be mostly opinions so far and largely incorrect ones.
But please tell me more about how Ed Milliband was a much better leader than the one who's campaign you describe as a cancer. Despite getting the largest vote share increase for labour in near a century. 10% more votes than Milliband managed...
Oh really? Well then please tell me why labour were doing better in the polls in October compared to now? And Corbyn was still a potential labour candidate in October. If the lead is down to starmer kicking people out, surely it should have taken a big increase after deselecting corbyn? But.... It's went down since.
"The authors point to a long-term decline in voter loyalty to Labour, connected to weaker community links, such as through trade unions."
Well at least we have Starmer now pushing the trade union links. Oh wait no.. He's busy telling his MPs not to join picket lines
"The report is unflinching in its analysis of how the leader’s appeal to voters plummeted between 2017 and 2019. Had his popularity stayed at its peak level, it says, Labour’s vote share in 2019 would have been 6 percentage points higher"
Appeal plummeted between 2017 and 2019. Wonder what caused that? It's nearly as if he was once incredibly popular.
Its nearly as if a certain group of media moguls felt threatened by his manifesto and spread propoganda to keep him out. Crazy how a MP with 40 years experience suddenly became anti semetic and numerous other things overnight. I wonder what the Jewish people who he has represented for 40 years think of him. Here you go babes - https://www.islingtontribune.co.uk/article/the-denunciation-of-jeremy-corbyn-is-wrong
Not as if the BBC ever reported any bias or inaccuracies:
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2...report-on-jeremy-corbyn-was-inaccurate-labour
https://www.thenational.scot/news/1...rg-removes-tweet-activist-punching-tory-aide/
The BBC made alot of "mistakes" in the build up to the 2019 campaign where they regularly told us just how anti British corbyn is. They even somehow managed to show a clip from years earlier of Boris placing a wreath incorrectly and disrespectfully on remembrance day - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-50374630
But sure it's just a mistake that happens all the time. You always see them accidently playing a 10 Year old eastenders episode or showing match of the day from 7 years back.. Happens all the time.
Defo had nothing to do with their corbyn anti British campaign in the build up to the 2019 election. Because a clip of corbyn laying a wreath respectfully and johnson not would really have helped the "anti British" campaign.
But of course I'm wrong. The BBC and daily mail are completely impartial and always have been. Defo been no talks of BBC impartiality recently.
And going back to the impartiality and the laura kuntface link above. This is what the director of BBC news had to say about the BBC trust finding it to be impartial
But when it's impartiality the other way. And by other way I mean Martine Croxall appearing to be "too gleeful" when announcing Boris won't be standing for election the BBC say
No disagreements. No outstanding journalist. No comment.
At least we've not had any issues of impartiality over Starmer yet and thankfully I don't think it will. Nearly as if all those tory BBC directors are.... Quite happy for him to win an election. I wonder why? :s
But hey @nickm at least Starmer has sorted out all this anti semtisim.
Particularly targeting those from Jewish Voice for Labour. If you're a member of JVL you are 180 times more likely to have faced an actioned complaint of antisemitism than a non Jewish labour member. (https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/uk-labour-antisemitism-accused-purging-jews-over-claims)
It's like calling a party islamophobic and then purging all the Islamic members lol!
Guess they must have been the wrong type of jew...
At least Starmer is leading the way in talking out against the current corruption within Israel where the hard right wing leader wants to change the law so that he can appoint judges before his own court appearance for corruption.
Oh wait or course not. Because speaking out against hard right politicians is Israel is anti semetistic according to Starmers labour and the "impartial" British media.
Particularly targeting those from Jewish Voice for Labour. If you're a member of JVL you are 180 times more likely to have faced an actioned complaint of antisemitism than a non Jewish labour member. (https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/uk-labour-antisemitism-accused-purging-jews-over-claims)
It's like calling a party islamophobic and then purging all the Islamic members lol!
Guess they must have been the wrong type of jew...
At least Starmer is leading the way in talking out against the current corruption within Israel where the hard right wing leader wants to change the law so that he can appoint judges before his own court appearance for corruption.
Oh wait or course not. Because speaking out against hard right politicians is Israel is anti semetistic according to Starmers labour and the "impartial" British media.
Good timing frosty. According to our buddy nickm labour have never been stronger since purging the left from the party...
Also @nickm sarcasm aside I'm really enjoying the debate and thank you for engaging in it. This is what this thread should be about, debating, not an echo chamber. So thank you very much for engaging. Whether we agree or not, we can at least respect others views and the good conversation which comes from it..
To be fair neither Truss or Sunak have won a general election. Both were voted in by Conservative members as they only need to call a GE 5 years after winning their last election.
The biggest issue right now though in my opinion is media propoganda and the very fact that the BBC has been infiltrated at all levels by people with ties to the Conservative party. So even our national broadcaster is incredibly bias.
And as you can tell by the comments in this thread. Even those who consider themselves "left wing" fell for the propoganda.
And we haven't even got to discussing the forde report yet either.
I’m sure me replying to this is taking some kind of bait, but I’m dying to hear what so-called propaganda some ‘fake’ left wing folk fell for.
I’d also love to hear how being a realist, accepting that UK has had one Labour leader in nearly 50yrs isn’t ready to jump fulling into a LW government, are also fake left-wing.
Perhaps we should all do the political compass test to ‘prove’ our place on the spectrum.
https://www.politicalcompass.org/
I just completed another go…
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I always come out left wing libertarian on that compass because it really doesn't pick out subtleties within the left and right. For instance, I would oppose, absolutely, private and faith schooling which is clearly not liberal but it can't pick that up because it's over-ridden by me not finding sex sinful or considering morality to come from God.I’m sure me replying to this is taking some kind of bait, but I’m dying to hear what so-called propaganda some ‘fake’ left wing folk fell for.
I’d also love to hear how being a realist, accepting that UK has had one Labour leader in nearly 50yrs isn’t ready to jump fulling into a LW government, are also fake left-wing.
Perhaps we should all do the political compass test to ‘prove’ our place on the spectrum.
https://www.politicalcompass.org/
I just completed another go…
So, it's unlikely to be overly useful in the who is the most left of us all competition.
As for the matter at hand, I accept the reality that I will never see a left wing Government in my lifetime, and that Starmer's Labour is, in far fewer ways than I'd like, better than the Tories but I find it soul sappingly depressing that this is where we are. Starmer actually scares me, and in a different way from the Tories. I think he's capable of causing terrible suffering due to his utter belief in establishment and the law, and any delight that I have in any defeat of the Tories will be tempered both by this and the experience of my political hopes and naivety being stripped away under our last Labour Government.
What in the actual feck is this?
"The authors point to a long-term decline in voter loyalty to Labour, connected to weaker community links, such as through trade unions."
Well at least we have Starmer now pushing the trade union links. Oh wait no.. He's busy telling his MPs not to join picket lines
"The report is unflinching in its analysis of how the leader’s appeal to voters plummeted between 2017 and 2019. Had his popularity stayed at its peak level, it says, Labour’s vote share in 2019 would have been 6 percentage points higher"
Appeal plummeted between 2017 and 2019. Wonder what caused that? It's nearly as if he was once incredibly popular.
Its nearly as if a certain group of media moguls felt threatened by his manifesto and spread propoganda to keep him out. Crazy how a MP with 40 years experience suddenly became anti semetic and numerous other things overnight. I wonder what the Jewish people who he has represented for 40 years think of him. Here you go babes - https://www.islingtontribune.co.uk/article/the-denunciation-of-jeremy-corbyn-is-wrong
Not as if the BBC ever reported any bias or inaccuracies:
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2...report-on-jeremy-corbyn-was-inaccurate-labour
https://www.thenational.scot/news/1...rg-removes-tweet-activist-punching-tory-aide/
The BBC made alot of "mistakes" in the build up to the 2019 campaign where they regularly told us just how anti British corbyn is. They even somehow managed to show a clip from years earlier of Boris placing a wreath incorrectly and disrespectfully on remembrance day - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-50374630
But sure it's just a mistake that happens all the time. You always see them accidently playing a 10 Year old eastenders episode or showing match of the day from 7 years back.. Happens all the time.
Defo had nothing to do with their corbyn anti British campaign in the build up to the 2019 election. Because a clip of corbyn laying a wreath respectfully and johnson not would really have helped the "anti British" campaign.
But of course I'm wrong. The BBC and daily mail are completely impartial and always have been. Defo been no talks of BBC impartiality recently.
And going back to the impartiality and the laura kuntface link above. This is what the director of BBC news had to say about the BBC trust finding it to be impartial
But when it's impartiality the other way. And by other way I mean Martine Croxall appearing to be "too gleeful" when announcing Boris won't be standing for election the BBC say
No disagreements. No outstanding journalist. No comment.
At least we've not had any issues of impartiality over Starmer yet and thankfully I don't think it will. Nearly as if all those tory BBC directors are.... Quite happy for him to win an election. I wonder why? :s
BBC Newsnights coverage of Corbyn when Leader of the Opposition was "sound news judgement" so therefore completely impartial...
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2018/may/11/bbc-rejects-complaints-newsnight-corbyn-russian
Why do you think its bait?I’m sure me replying to this is taking some kind of bait, but I’m dying to hear what so-called propaganda some ‘fake’ left wing folk fell for.
I’d also love to hear how being a realist, accepting that UK has had one Labour leader in nearly 50yrs isn’t ready to jump fulling into a LW government, are also fake left-wing.
Perhaps we should all do the political compass test to ‘prove’ our place on the spectrum.
https://www.politicalcompass.org/
I just completed another go…
Well we're continually hearing in this thread about what a cancer corbyn is and how he destroyed the Labour Party and is unelectable. What's that based on? Propoganda.
We've had 2 labour leaders in power in the last 20 nevermind 50 years. Not sure what the rest of the paragraph is about.
Not sure why I need to do a political compass test to show my political views. Not really sure where I am on the political spectrum but I'd say pretty far left. But then some of my political views contradict each other so I'm still not sure where I fully sit.
I strongly oppose capatilsm and would consider myself to be a socialist and a pacifist. However I'm also influenced by Marxist ideology too and I guess this is where I contradict my pacifist views. Because while I don't agree with armies of innocent people killing each other due to a few dictators not getting along. I probably would support a class war.
I also sympathise with parts of the East German regime and can see alot of positives from it too. Social housing readily available, plenty of food state subsidised, great childcare freely available, jobs provided by the state, a strong focus on sport community and extra curricular activities, free and readily available health care and education and even free holidays put on by the state.
With that said though we're obviously alot of well documented criticisms too. A lack of democracy at elections, restrictions on travel, the state actively spying on people and many worse things.
But then let's look at what happened after German unification. The East Germans were all provided currency they could use in West Germany when the wall got knocked down. So what did the shop owners do? They pushed their prices up to extortionate amounts knowing the East Germans didn't understand the value and basically robbed them. Germany also moved production from alot of huge factories in east Germany to West German factories instead making lots of people unemployed. And then wealthy west Germans bought up said factories for peanuts. And even still today there is alot of inequality between west and east Germany. But in the vast majority of documentaries it's painted west good and east bad. But it's very much not the case at all in my opinion.
And I guess using east Germany as an example of a corrupt socialist state is what pushes me more from socialist views to Marxist views because the GDR an excellent example of corruption in a socialist state.
BBC Newsnights coverage of Corbyn when Leader of the Opposition was "sound news judgement" so therefore completely impartial...
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2018/may/11/bbc-rejects-complaints-newsnight-corbyn-russian
And then we had all the tweets at the time from Lord Sugar and Andrew Neil too.
Was never an issue with impartiality then though.. That was allowed. But dare gary Linekar compare the language of a tory policy to 1930s Germany and WWIII starts.
But according to some on here Corbyn just decided to became a raging anti British, pro Russian, anti Jewish scumbag in the 2 years between 2017 and 2019 after a 40 year career in polticis.
Because you knows he's just a massive wanker and cancer to the country. Nothing like the outstanding citizen and man of the people Kier Starmer. Kiers out there every day shoulder to shoulder with the working man campaigning for better pay and working rights. While corbyn spends his days covering synagogues in bacon.
Most frustrating though for me is continually being compared to some secret tory or troll for rightfully criticising Starmer.
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We are slowly turning into America.
It’s not that slow.
Thanks for this! I did mine…
https://www.politicalcompass.org/yourpoliticalcompass_js?ec=-4.38&soc=-2.92
…then asked for the certificate (!) and found from their caricatures that I am……. fecking Bernie Sanders (!!)
That website tells Boris voters they're left lib.
I’m sure me replying to this is taking some kind of bait, but I’m dying to hear what so-called propaganda some ‘fake’ left wing folk fell for.
I’d also love to hear how being a realist, accepting that UK has had one Labour leader in nearly 50yrs isn’t ready to jump fulling into a LW government, are also fake left-wing.
Perhaps we should all do the political compass test to ‘prove’ our place on the spectrum.
https://www.politicalcompass.org/
I just completed another go…
Gave that a go. Turns out I'm a left libertarian extremist like you.
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Are people seriously now trying to 'prove' how left wing they are now? If so, please take it to another thread.
As @DOTA said, you have to be a rabid neo-nazi to end up in a righthand quadrant with that test anyway.
As @DOTA said, you have to be a rabid neo-nazi to end up in a righthand quadrant with that test anyway.
I thought they took back control when they voted for Brexit?
What do they want to take control of now, and why aren't they already in control of it after 13 years in power?
It isn't a very sensitive scale, is it? It puts me right in the same bottom left corner as probably 99% of the caf. Or perhaps factional arguments make us believe we are more different than we are?
You have mentioned opinions a few times. What are you basing the statements that Corbyn would hold the same or larger lead now? Is there some polling being done
You've extensively referenced the media treatment of Corbyn and it was clearly biased and unfair. What's changed in the media since 2019 (or what regulatory reform do you see the conservatives implementing between now and the next election) to eliminate that bias? Do you feel he could avoid any media missteps? Are there any positions he might hold that could be used against him?