It's a balance to get right, surely, you don't want to rely solely on the manager to do all the recruitment and then rip it up and start from scratch every time things go south but you also don't want to impose a load of players on a different manager every season like they do in Paris.
Should Ten Hag get the sack if he fails to qualify for the CL?
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Ah yeh cos a football forum is so similar to my job isn't it?
Fans are calling each other a hell of a lot worse down the pub than that mate!I think if you look at the way real Madrid and bayern do it, and they certainly are the two best run clubs in Europe, they build great squads, and they bring in managers who can work with those squads, they don't bring in managers who need a whole new first XI to work with, in order for their philosophy to work.
Now part of the issue for us is that we haven't done that at all, Madrid did it after mourinho they let him build that side and even though they didn't fully prosper under him, it laid the groundwork for the next decade, we should do similar with ten hag, yes give him some input but don't allow him to bring in players that only work in a certain system and are useless outside it, we need to bring in players that the next manager could work with, if things don't progress with ten hag next year, one of the reasons our spending is so high over the last decade but with hardly any success to show for it is that we buy players for certain managers then as soon as they're gone, they need replacing
You have to take into account the circumstances. If ETH had inherited a squad at Bournemouth’s level, then a season where they won the League Cup and finished 5th would be a 10/10. Conversely, if it was City’s squad it would be a 2/10.
My expectations at the start of this season, bearing in mind the absolute horror show last year, was that we’d finish around about 5th and, of course, I hoped we’d have a good run in one of the cups. As it is, if we finish 5th with one cup already won and another possible, I would consider this to be an above par season. If ETH repeated the same next season, the mark would likely be lower.
Well I don't want us to ever become like those sides, the Madrid's and Barcelona's, I'd rather a more middle ground approach, not sack after one season but also not keep on a manager more than he should've been kept on for (Ole and Jose)
Well I don't think he's getting sacked even if we lost all the games, which I don't think we will anyway, I think we're in it for the long haul with him, whether people agree with it or not.
Yeah it would be awful winning 5 champions leagues in 9 years, we'd all hate it. We're not talking about psg or Madrid when they were the galactico's, they and bayern should be the blueprint for how to run top level clubs, and anyone saying we don't to be like them, I mean why? So we can have some smug sense of superiority about giving our managers time? Because otherwise I don't really see any advantages to not being like them
No I mean in terms of getting rid of managers willy nilly, I agree they are proper run clubs, doing things the right way in the background. But I still wouldn't want the approach of getting rid of a manager after one season just because we didn't get top 4, if Madrid etc did that, I wouldn't agree with it.
That seems to be an approach that serves all these clubs well, managers are treated as custodians who are there on a temporary basis and the club can function while replacing them, whereas we still seem to be stuck in 2005, when the Glazers took over, and everything runs through the manager. This means getting it wrong is very costly, compared to those clubs, where if they appoint someone and they aren't right they get rid of them.
Look at benitez at Madrid, he got 6 months, it wasn't working, they sacked him and as a result they brought in the right man and won 3 CLs in a row. There's no way you'll ever be able to convince me that this was the wrong thing to do
And you'll never convince me that sacking a manager so soon is the right approach either, as I said a middle ground between the two is the best approach for me. So if EtH is struggling this time next season then a change should be made, but not before then.
So you think sacking benitez after 6 months wasn't the right approach, even though it resulted in winning 3 champions leagues in a row?
Persisting with the wrong manager can be just as damaging as sacking the right one, if you look around Europe most of the clubs who are successful tend to act quicker when it comes to sacking managers
No no, obviously there is circumstances where a manager should be sacked, Moyes and Benitez being good examples, but the likes of EtH here at United it absolutely shouldn't happen so soon.
I've not been arguing for ten hag to get sacked, I voted no, but equally I don't think it's helpful to call people who think he should be, morons. If they think he genuinely isn't the right manager for the club, and haven't been encouraged by what they've seen this season (and that's fair there's been a lot of positives, but a lot of negatives as well), then wanting him to continue based on some vague notion that managers deserve more time would be ridiculous, if someone genuinely doesn't think he's the right man for the job, then giving him another season is another season in their eyes with the wrong man at the helm, with the wrong man signing players etc
So I don't think it's moronic, I think it's natural that if you don't think he's right that you'd want him to go
Well that's where we definitely disagree, I think it's absolutely moronic, because anyone with an ounce of sense knew that after last season, and the mish mash of players we have here from all the different managers that it was always going to take time to sort it all out. So fans expecting everything to be hunky dory after one season are totally blind. Just look at klopp and arteta and how long it's taken them to sort the squad out that they wanted.
And I think your also glossing over the fact that there are 'fans' on here who just plain didn't want him here from day one, and look for any reason to shit on him, doesn't seem to matter what he does. These are the remnants of the Ole and Jose cult.
Anyway that's enough from me for one night, time for bed!
If you can't accept and understand different people might have different opinions in opinion forum than person should feck off is you.
At least you have just admitted they’re wrong though.
Successful?
Whilst I would be disappointed to miss top 4, I would like to see ETH to have another window or 2 hopefully with freedom to recruit players, injuries + deadwood + below par loan deals have really hamstrung ETH towards the end of the season, along with the number of fixtures, just hope the take over gets done in time to give him the scope to really begin to shape the team
Far too much sense for this thread
He absolutely not be sacked for finishing 5th, however, if reports from this morning are true - he should absolutely be sacked if he decides to offer Wout Weghorst a longer term contract. I can’t trust the judgement of a man anymore if he goes down that road.
I strongly disagree with this and I think it should depend on the context. For example, we should not have given Moyes more than a season, it would have been a total disaster if he got another one, heck we should have sacked him after back-to-back home defeats against Everton and Newcastle in October/November. Chelsea definitely did the right thing by sacking Villas Boas half a season into the job and then won UCL that season.
What is so bad about firing a manager if ultimately results in more success? I mean, if Madrid win UCL this season, it would mean that in the last decade they won twice as many UCL as we did in our history,
while firing Mourinho, Ancelotti, Solari, Lopetegui, Benitez and Zidane leaving (twice). Why it would have been better if instead they fired only half of these managers and won only half of the UCLs they won?
Same for Bayern, Barca and co. There is nothing wrong with firing a manager if he does not perform. In fact, there is everything wrong about not firing an underperforming manager. ‘Fail fast’ is the philosophy of every other big club, the sooner you realize that you failed, the faster you can fix the error.
100% agreed. We’re still in post-SAF era and many hope for a long-term manager to revolutionize the club, while it’s much more difficult than just having a proper structure.
Proponents of early sackings: ignore all the cases where it didn't work, focus on the few times it did
It is more about not being dogmatic that ‘every manager must get at least X years’. Instead, ‘every manager should be judged based on his work, and if that means sacking him after 2 months, so be it’.
That's fine to believe in, but don't point to Madrid as proof of that principle because I can come up with more counter examples.
This.
I don't think any reasonable fan expected us to finish ahead of City, Liverpool, Chelsea or Arsenal after last season. So it would be unfair to now sack him for finishing in the top 5 or 6 as most expected that in August.
That said, to throw it away from here, combined with the disgraceful away form and the unacceptable collapse at Anfield would put him right in the crosshairs next season. And thats before any possible fallout if the Cup Final goes very badly too. That pressure would be intense and given how little we are likely going to have to spend this summer, relative to our needs, that is going to be a tough ask.
So he really really needs to find some form from here and secure Top 4. And a decent showing in the Cup Final. Not saying he has to win it, but he can't be losing it in humiliating fashion.
It was directly in response to the user who said that he wouldn’t want us to be like Madrid, being trigger happy. Which is ultimately weird cause Madrid has been the most successful club and is something every club should try to emulate (which doesn’t mean sacking managers just because Madrid sacks managers).
Ah yeh cos a football forum is so similar to my job isn't it?
The definition of a keyboard warrior.Would love to see you giving it large in a pub up in Glasgow MATE.
You carry on Big Man
That’s pretty reasonable post, but at the same time it ignores that Liverpool is having their worst season in a decade, and Chelsea is having their worst season in 2 decades (Spurs being shit too but that is not a big surprise). If anyone said that Liverpool will struggle getting 70 points and Chelsea will be fighting relegation, I think most would have predicted us getting in top 4 and would have been very disappointed with 5th. Especially, if someone told you that with 8 matches to go, we would be having a double digit lead to Liverpool while not having to play them, City, Arsenal and Newcastle.
I think that the form since the League Cup has been an utter disgrace and easily as bad as we ever were under Mourinho or Ole. At the same time, it can also be easily argued that from Spurs home match to League Cup final, we have had the best form in post SAF era and that should give another season to ten Hag despite the embarrassing collapse after that. These two are not mutually exclusive.
We improved immensely under ETH, up until injuries and obvious fatigue started to derail things. For most (all?) of these players, it'll be the largest number of games they've ever played in a season. Before that started to take hold, everyone was singing his praises. If he gets sacked after one season because of factors that he had nothing whatsoever to do with, I'm probably done with football altogether, because it would be such an unbelievably idiotic, self-destructive decision, and anyone who calls for it is out of their fecking minds. I'd give up on this club in that event, and since I have no interest in supporting any other club, I'd just quit following football. Let's not become one of those clubs that just sack any manager who doesn't deliver completely unrealistic miracles from the moment he walks in the door.
To put things into perspective, the game on Sunday was United's 58th of the season. It was West Ham's 39th. Throughout the second half of this season, we've played about 50% more games than the majority of our opponents have. That's in addition to the fact that most of our squad played in the winter WC. Our most important player has played more minutes of football this season than literally anybody in Europe. This is why the team is falling apart at the seams, and anyone who's capable of the mental gymnastics to blame ETH for that is someone whose opinion should be dismissed out of hand. He did a fantastic job in the first half of this season. What, you think he just spontaneously forgot how to do his job after that? Just randomly chose not to coach correctly for the second half? Absolutely ridiculous.
His signings have generally worked out. He has won one cup and is in the final of another. Up until very recently, CL qualification was seen as a near-certainty. He has done all this while managing a club that was pure chaos when he arrived, and has done it literally while the club was in the process of being sold, with no certainty of who the next owner might be and what they might think of him. If we had won these last two games, there's not a soul who would have considered sacking him. Basically, people are now calling for his head based on two fecking games at the tail end of a season that has left our squad utterly fatigued and ravaged by injuries. It's just insane knee-jerk idiocy.
To put things into perspective, the game on Sunday was United's 58th of the season. It was West Ham's 39th. Throughout the second half of this season, we've played about 50% more games than the majority of our opponents have. That's in addition to the fact that most of our squad played in the winter WC. Our most important player has played more minutes of football this season than literally anybody in Europe. This is why the team is falling apart at the seams, and anyone who's capable of the mental gymnastics to blame ETH for that is someone whose opinion should be dismissed out of hand. He did a fantastic job in the first half of this season. What, you think he just spontaneously forgot how to do his job after that? Just randomly chose not to coach correctly for the second half? Absolutely ridiculous.
His signings have generally worked out. He has won one cup and is in the final of another. Up until very recently, CL qualification was seen as a near-certainty. He has done all this while managing a club that was pure chaos when he arrived, and has done it literally while the club was in the process of being sold, with no certainty of who the next owner might be and what they might think of him. If we had won these last two games, there's not a soul who would have considered sacking him. Basically, people are now calling for his head based on two fecking games at the tail end of a season that has left our squad utterly fatigued and ravaged by injuries. It's just insane knee-jerk idiocy.
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Two of the greatest and most successful teams of all time that have a proper football culture and you wouldn't want to be like them.
You couldn't make it up.
Would love to see you giving it large in a pub up in Glasgow MATE.
You carry on Big Man
Exams coming up?
Oh man. Gotta hate this place at times. Such a kneejerk reaction to an admittedly poor run of form. Ten Hag has worked absolute miracles getting this strikerless, shot shy bunch riding high in the league and while an admittedly poor run of form has taken the gloss off the season, you'd have to be blind to not see the good work that Ten Hag has done compared to the other post Fergie pretenders. Give him a top quality striker and another season before you start wanting a new toy.
Does anyone else take at least some solace that "Only 13% of posters have such 'embicillic posts' that they're asking for a change?" asking for a friend.
Does anyone else take at least some solace that "Only 13% of posters have such 'embicillic posts' that they're asking for a change?" asking for a friend.
I do agree that we need someone above the manager but a big reason why these teams are so successful is because someone like ten hag,ole,lvg etc wouldn't be given 3 years if all they could do is barely scrape top 4 and win a 3rd rate trophy.
We keep giving these managers 3 years and money to spend so they can create their own team then what happens is they get sacked then after they've gone we need another rebuild when its clear as day they werent the right person for the job . Its basically delaying the inevitable.
Proponents of giving time to all managers regardless of circumstances: "Sir Alex!!!"
The only meaningful point to make is that sacking a manager early on isn't inherently wrong. It should not be a matter of principle that every manager deserves at least two seasons - yet plenty of people believe exactly that.
Everyone who plays any sort of role in that decision would have to be sacked and possibly barred from football for life. And I mean including those who might have had a chance to stop it but didn't.
Still, I do believe the reports are rubbish. They simply can't be true.
And of those 13%, probably 90% are oppo fans. More solace.