Meh, I don't think this is the case. UKIP are no marks and basically disbanded, Reclaim similar.A perfect demonstration of how far the Overton window has been dragged right.
Are you saying that when he gets into power he will pivot?Meh, I don't think this is the case. UKIP are no marks and basically disbanded, Reclaim similar.
I don't see it tbh, but what I see is labour making sure those who'd never vote for them, might. Now the plan could backfire but they've been unsuccessful since 2010 trying everything else.
that's because the Tories have shifted much further right to soak up thise votes.Meh, I don't think this is the case. UKIP are no marks and basically disbanded, Reclaim similar.
What was unsuccessful was the self sabotage by the centrists in the Labour party under the previous leadership during GE's. Many of the same people now demanding unquestioning support for Starmer.I don't see it tbh, but what I see is labour making sure those who'd never vote for them, might. Now the plan could backfire but they've been unsuccessful since 2010 trying everything else.
Amazing how the Ukrainians were processed rapidly with safe routes.
Not really, the paperwork, for identification and destinations were already known and validated with most Ukraine refugees.
The problem for many of the asylum seekers, especially those arriving via illegal methods i.e Small Boats etc., is they are unable to provide the necessary evidence that can be validated quickly. The whole asylum process is not fit for purpose anyway and wants improving, but it comes way down most lists of 'wants' for the general public, and all politicians know that!
Not all Ukrainans had all their papers, they fled fighting and there were plenty of ways for them to contact the British authorities. How do you know what papers the asylum seekers have and which papers the ukranians have?
It is not illegal to seek asylum in the UK or anywhere else.
It's the government and Labour appealing to the racists and xenophobes but with the Ukranians they can say they're "Bleating the Way!" It's all propaganda led by the media and believed by the gullibles.
I'm saying that I don't recall a party getting elected and keeping their electoral promises. If he promises something very much aligned to the Tories - Rwanda for example - I can seen them reverse ferreting once in power.Are you saying that when he gets into power he will pivot?
Sorry, Corbyn was electoral asbestos and to say the centrists are the reason why he failed twice is fantasythat's because the Tories have shifted much further right to soak up thise votes.
The argument is Labour are to keen to follow.
What was unsuccessful was the self sabotage by the centrists in the Labour party under the previous leadership during GE's. Many of the same people now demanding unquestioning support for Starmer.
Yes I imagine he will fold to press pressure and concede something like the Rwandan policy.I'm saying that I don't recall a party getting elected and keeping their electoral promises. If he promises something very much aligned to the Tories - Rwanda for example - I can seen them reverse ferreting once in power.
Most apparently did.
Like you I listen to the news broadcasts.
The individuals themselves are not illegal, but their method of entry is... there should be safer and legal ways for asylum seekers, but at the moment there are not, hence the method of entry is both dangerous and illegal and whatever government takes control next will have the same problem and once again all politicians know this!
Whether you believe that or not is irrelevant. The point remains, that self sabotage by the centrists in the Labour party under the previous leadership during GE's had a negative impact on Labour. And many of the same people are now asking for unquestioning support for Starmer.Sorry, Corbyn was electoral asbestos and to say the centrists are the reason why he failed twice is fantasy
Most asylum seekers are accepted. Deportation is not a major issue. Processing them is an issue. Amazing how the Ukrainians were processed rapidly with safe routes.
The whole issue of small boats has been blown out of all proportion by both the Tories and Labour. The Tories are horrendous but Labour are so weak.
No, I can see him removing it entirely. Too expensive, doesn't work etc.Yes I imagine he will fold to press pressure and concede something like the Rwandan policy.
Well, it's not irrelevant just because you don't like the point that Corbyn returned absolutely zero success at the ballot box, in two consecutive elections.Whether you believe that or not is irrelevant. The point remains, that self sabotage by the centrists in the Labour party under the previous leadership during GE's had a negative impact on Labour. And many of the same people are now asking for unquestioning support for Starmer.
If people believe the Overton window has shifted, why do they persist with old style leftist politics to try and win elections?
Nah, just, I dunno, winning elections to make a difference rather than, bleating from the sidelines and constantly talking about why it's all so terrible.As opposed to just jumping on the populist bandwagon and continuing to make things even worse?
Nah, just, I dunno, winning elections to make a difference rather than, bleating from the sidelines and constantly talking about why it's all so terrible.
Which is what they have all done for, say, a hundred years. So what if you don't keep you manifesto pledge to use the Navy to sink the boats in the channel, you're in power.“Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgement; and he betrays you instead of serving you if he sacrifices it to your opinion.”
If people believe the Overton window has shifted, why do they persist with old style leftist politics to try and win elections?
You're missing the point, again.Well, it's not irrelevant just because you don't like the point that Corbyn returned absolutely zero success at the ballot box, in two consecutive elections.
You can crow about "centrists" who "self sabotaged" as if they rigged votes, alas, it was on him, McDonnell and Milne. This man cannot get elected and set the country back several years through is ineptitude, handing a stinking 80 odd seat majority to that jar of soiled mayonnaise, Johnson.
Combined with his ludicrous position on Brexit, i.e. absolutely stupid, I'm glad he's milling about as an independent.
How do Labour make a difference when they simply adopt Conservative policies?Nah, just, I dunno, winning elections to make a difference rather than, bleating from the sidelines and constantly talking about why it's all so terrible.
So the right should be allowed to drag the Overton window to further to the right while the left have to operate in the window wherever it should be?If people believe the Overton window has shifted, why do they persist with old style leftist politics to try and win elections?
I think you overestimate the power an opposition political person has on a society wide trend.The Overton window has shifted because the likes of starmer have allowed it to. If no tries to pull it in the other direction, then it's going to keep drifting further to the right.
I've never asked anyone to suppress their views on Starmer, have at it. I just think they're misguided and typical of the left who prefer to criticise internally, create divisions and infighting and generally have an aversion to power or winning power because perpetual campaigning and opposition is the easier job.You're missing the point, again.
Are you too entrenched to see the hypocrisy of certain "centrists" now forcing unquestioning support after actively working to sabotage Labour in general elections?
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...antisemitism-tories-yougov-poll-a9462456.html
Again, your views on Corbyn are irrelevant to this point. Because if you think your opinion on Corbyn justifies this behaviour, you have no right to ask others to suppress their views on Starmer.
Question; do parties ever break manifesto pledges or proposed policies once they get into power?How do Labour make a difference when they simply adopt Conservative policies?
You cannot drag the window back unless you achieve power.So the right should be allowed to drag the Overton window to further to the right while the left have to operate in the window wherever it should be?
Never ever in favour of the people though.Question; do parties ever break manifesto pledges or proposed policies once they get into power?
Time for that to changeNever ever in favour of the people though.
You cannot drag the window back unless you achieve power.
Once you have a storming majority, you can do whatever you like. Case in point, The Tories. If Labour roll into Westminster with a 100 seat majority, they can do whatever they want, regardless of manifesto pledges.
So they could scrap Rwanda, they could double NHS funding, they could raise base pay for teachers, they can literally enact sensible left of centre politics and what can the opposition, or indeed the public do. I dunno about you but I feel pretty helpless watching The Tories dismantle the country with their majority, I'm able to do nothing about it. Perhaps those on the right wing will feel the same when Labour are elected.
The main issue with leftist policies is you can't run on them as the right wing media and Overton window will just destroy these ideas in front of the public, losing you votes for being "economically dangerous" or on the side of "wokeness".
Absolutely. It won't be Starmer who changes it, though.Time for that to change
You cannot drag the window back unless you achieve power.
Once you have a storming majority, you can do whatever you like. Case in point, The Tories. If Labour roll into Westminster with a 100 seat majority, they can do whatever they want, regardless of manifesto pledges.
So they could scrap Rwanda, they could double NHS funding, they could raise base pay for teachers, they can literally enact sensible left of centre politics and what can the opposition, or indeed the public do. I dunno about you but I feel pretty helpless watching The Tories dismantle the country with their majority, I'm able to do nothing about it. Perhaps those on the right wing will feel the same when Labour are elected.
The main issue with leftist policies is you can't run on them as the right wing media and Overton window will just destroy these ideas in front of the public, losing you votes for being "economically dangerous" or on the side of "wokeness".
I think you overestimate the power an opposition political person has on a society wide trend.
Taking into account that there is an estimated number of illegal immigrants of over one million people in the UK who have entered mainly by overstaying their visa
There is a large number of people in the UK, illegally, and there are many different ways this has occurred, the majority as you say staying on after visa's etc have ended; however, the very visible act of people arriving illegally in full view, of press and of course public, risking their lives and the lives of others has to be stopped, any government will have to stop these boats, Tory, Labour, Greens, Lib-dems, whoever. Maybe other governments have other ways to research individual claims when evidence is missing or unobtainable that will prove faster and more efficient, we shall have to see.
I don't fundamentally disagree with the points you make Paul, but I notice you ignored the issue of arriving with out papers etc and saying "I'm an asylum seeker just let me in", is a different situation to someone whose has (presumably) been allowed in and has overstayed their welcome...so to speak! The problem of proving who you are and whether you are allowed in becomes monumental when evidence is missing and it takes time.
There is a large number of people in the UK, illegally, and there are many different ways this has occurred, the majority as you say staying on after visa's etc have ended; however, the very visible act of people arriving illegally in full view, of press and of course public, risking their lives and the lives of others has to be stopped, any government will have to stop these boats, Tory, Labour, Greens, Lib-dems, whoever. Maybe other governments have other ways to research individual claims when evidence is missing or unobtainable that will prove faster and more efficient, we shall have to see.
There is only one way to stop these boats and that's to let them onto ships and process them in the UK. I can't see either happening in a very long time.I don't fundamentally disagree with the points you make Paul, but I notice you ignored the issue of arriving with out papers etc and saying "I'm an asylum seeker just let me in", is a different situation to someone whose has (presumably) been allowed in and has overstayed their welcome...so to speak! The problem of proving who you are and whether you are allowed in becomes monumental when evidence is missing and it takes time.
There is a large number of people in the UK, illegally, and there are many different ways this has occurred, the majority as you say staying on after visa's etc have ended; however, the very visible act of people arriving illegally in full view, of press and of course public, risking their lives and the lives of others has to be stopped, any government will have to stop these boats, Tory, Labour, Greens, Lib-dems, whoever. Maybe other governments have other ways to research individual claims when evidence is missing or unobtainable that will prove faster and more efficient, we shall have to see.
But no they're in, might as well stay in by enacting policies that will actually benefit people.They could do all that, but they could equally think there is no need to do so, as people voted for them in huge numbers when they ran on policies that appeased the right wing media.
Why? They don't work and they won't solve the issues at hand so they'll be gone after 48 months.I'd say if Starmer believes it to be politically advantageous to gain power with his current policies, it's more than likely he'll see it as politically advantageous to stick with them once elected to stay in power.
That seems far more likely than him getting elected and pivoting to a much more unpopular and less re-electable position.
Yes.Why? They don't work and they won't solve the issues at hand so they'll be gone after 48 months.
