Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
A bunker buster is basically just a big bomb with a hardened front and a delayed detonation which allows it to penetrate into a structure before it detonates. If they are targeting tunnels under the city the houses above will definatly take a large part of the damage. There are no magic weapons that can take out underground structures without damaging the structures above them.
You intentionally ignore every fecking day the fact the conflict is more than 1 week old. What do you want to say? The Palestinians have no right to live on their land?
So what is it about Hamas that they see as advantageous? Maybe there is some sense that they’re cnuts so Israel can do a better job of painting all Palestinians as bad? I dunno, probably a bit in the realm of conspiracy!
He's married to an Israeli celebrity.
Because of the hypocrisy baked into that support, the racism inherent in the refugee crises etc. As I said, I personally don't agree with it all, I can still support and have sympathy for the Ukrainians but I understand why some PoC are not the same, especially with the heavy handed way the west went about garnering that support.
Ah I didn't realise you were asking me literally. I there there would have been a lot of condemnation of Ukraine. I think though there would have been more understanding of the context than there has been for the Palestinians (it's also again not analogous because Ukraine still has [vast swathes of) territory of its own]). I think if Ukraine then had a refugee crisis, the west would still have been more open to those refugees and would separate the Ukrainian people from the government who'd committed the attack. I don't think they'd have have armed Ukraine initially. I think that might potentially have changed if Russia somehow found a way to starve the entirety of the country of electricity and water/ was ethnically cleansing the population.
Then again, nobody is seriously suggesting the Palestinians, let alone Hamas though.
That's only my opinion of course, doesn't mean that it's necessarily right.
*Multiple vomit emojis*
We already know how that went with the Taliban, with several rebel fighters liberated in a deal before they came back to bite.
I take it you don't really understand the conflict in Yemen then? The Iranians don't back 'Yemen', they back the Houthi rebels who essentially overthrew the government and have been in a stalemate conflict with Saudi Arabia. The only losers of that conflict are the Yemeni people who've suffered immeasurably because of Saudi bombings. They also have completely infiltrated Iraqi politics, and hold considerable power there because of their proxy militias, which was a considerable failure on behalf of the US government and their allies. Then of course there's Hezbollah who are probably the most mobilised and powerful armed faction in Lebanon. And then of course there's their biggest Arab ally - Syria, who despite the combined efforts of the West, Turkey and the Gulf Arab States, have failed to topple the pro-Iranian regime there.
So I'd say you're completely off the mark with your suggestion that they always back a losing horse.
That absolutely won't cut it.
There's been literally too much blood spilled. You have no idea how weak this pathetic excuse of a government would appear if they did so. No population would accept it and the Israelis would have their head on a spike, so to speak.
Netanyahu has no choice, he's trapped by his own logic and sowing the results of his suicidal politics of the last 15 years. Israel has to and will go in, no matter the cost.
And more people will die. On both sides.
It's existence and continued hold over half the "official" Palestinian power structure is an advantage in putting off any solution which involves concessions. Direct quote from Netanyahu.
In a series of shocking comments made to police investigators during a 2019 interrogation about his corruption case, Netanyahu flatly described how he saw Hamas as an asset in hobbling the Palestinian cause. “Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas,” he said. “This is part of our strategy – to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.” Not really something you’d hear from someone who thought that peace could even hypothetically be preferable compared to the status quo. But this wasn’t even his most blatantly arrogant admission of the interrogation. Also speaking about Hamas, he said to the same officers:
“I mislead them, destabilize them, mock them, and then hit them over the head. It’s impossible to reach an agreement with them...Everyone knows this, but we control the height of the flames.”
(Emphasis added)
It’s not conspiracy. It’s well documented Israeli government policy going back to the late 1970s
Hamas needs the Israeli far right, settlers and Likud to justify their existence and their disdain for Israel. And the far right, Likud and settlers need Hamas to justify their actions and policies. It's not a conspiracy because these sides will point at the other when they have to justify any of their dubious actions and it makes perfect sense when you consider that you are talking about two extremists sides within the same conflict. If there is peace all of these people existence is null.
This is a balanced take that I would love to hear from more American and European politicians.
By not murdering 700 children.
Israel have the Mossad. If they can assasinate people in the iranian nuclear programme. They certainly have the means to take out the leadership of hamas wherever they are based, no matter what country.
They also have their special forces units. They could surgically take out members of hamas. They could surgically take out buildings they thought were hamas strongholds without indiscrimately bombing gaza.
American Delta forces, UK SAS can do this precision work (its what they are trained for and why they are the best at what they do). No reason israeli equivalent couldnt do so also.
Agree. Israel have been given carte blanche to what they have wanted to do for years.
In their mind, killing kids in Palestine is justified as they see them as future Hamas members.
Hamas were always used as a means to weaken the PLO, in the classic divide and and conquer fashion. There was a time where it was allowed to negociate with the Hamas (founded in 1987) but not the PLO. Israel used them again to sideline the Palestinian Authority (the offspring of the PLO) from 2006 onwards to justify for the lack of a proper dialogue partner for the peace talks and pretty much do whatever they wanted. To be completely fair the PA didn't help themselves being corrupted, and complete unable to clean their own house. So of course, Israel had no interest in seeing the Hamas completely destroyed. Let them be harmful, but not too much. That obviously changed since last Saturday.
It's a classic really, a method that has been used for millenias, especially in newly conquered or colonized regions, and ideal to maintain a certain status quo. It also has a tendency to badly backfire.
Does anyone else think that Hamas must have something else planned?
If not, I don't really understand the thinking behind their original attack.
If not, I don't really understand the thinking behind their original attack.
You don't believe this because Hitler killed 6.6 millions Jews and this raving lunatic in Israel has killed 1,500 people? Your thinking is flawed. You kill people like he has, in my opinion, he's no different to Hitler.
Gaza civilians afraid to leave home after bombing of ‘safe routes’
Analysis of aerial photos and social media posts confirms attack on road identified as safe by Israeli army
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...id-to-leave-home-after-bombing-of-safe-routes
Drop leaflets telling civilians to leave, then bomb the "safe route"?
Analysis of aerial photos and social media posts confirms attack on road identified as safe by Israeli army
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...id-to-leave-home-after-bombing-of-safe-routes
Drop leaflets telling civilians to leave, then bomb the "safe route"?
There's a thought that this was the first part of a multi-pronged attack coordinated by the Iranians via their proxies (Hamas and Hezbollah).
1. Hamas conducts cross border slaughter in Israel.
2. The Israelis predictably go after Hamas in Gaza, resulting in a humanitarian crisis.
3. With a vast majority of Israel's military and troops focused on a ground war in Gaza, Hezbollah then opens a second front from the north.
The fact that they are commiting atrocities in full view of the world's press, (apart from the press
they've targeted and killed), just shows how psycopathic the Israeli leaders are.
Few days ago I was being accused of being a terrorist sympathiser for not showing the correct sympathy for the victims of hamas terror. Anyone supporting the Israelis in their actions and methods can get to feck. Evil bustards.
they've targeted and killed), just shows how psycopathic the Israeli leaders are.
Few days ago I was being accused of being a terrorist sympathiser for not showing the correct sympathy for the victims of hamas terror. Anyone supporting the Israelis in their actions and methods can get to feck. Evil bustards.
Seems to me if that’s true the end result will be Israel throw a load of bombs around. Claim Hamas have been weakened. Withdraw and then the same thing happens again in a few years time.
If anything positive can be taken from this tragedy, then it’s that Netanyahu has been well and truly exposed.
He had an unwritten contract with the Israel public, which kept him in power for so long: I’ll guarantee your safety if you turn a blind eye to all the other stuff. Now he can’t even offer that one thing.
Not a chance he’ll be able to avoid a full-on ground invasion. He’s all-in on this failing strategy.
It does sound like a conspiracy but it is something that is mentioned again and again by commentators, Jewish and non Jewish military and non.
You can get plenty of quotes online from some surprising people.
As well as first hand senior military from Israel who state that Hamas was heavily funded by Israel in its inception.
One of the go to lines is that the fear is something worse might replace them. For me this is the conspiracy theory.
What I think will be attacked as a conspiracy theory is what I am about to write. That is that almost all previous Palestinian authorities/militant groups etc have eventually accepted the "Israel has a right to exist" argument over time/years. This doesn't suit Israel as it means they can't play the victim and/or justify their taking of land.
The acceptance and trade of the ME countries overall means Hamas is the only reason for Israel doing what it wants when it wants.
I maybe wrong but having gone down certain rabbit holes reading up on Israel a lot of what is being said on here in the media etc isn't quite as accurate as some believe.
This can’t be denied
Israelis have been barbaric in their response!!
What Hamas did was evil on Biblical levels
But Israel are responding in the same manor! And in full show! It’s not even up for debate
essentially showing the world one wrong should be equalled with a second wrong
utter morons
While most of the world watch on and say or do nothing because they can't. The minute anyone speaks of supporting the Palestinians (not hamas) they're branded as antisemitic.
We're witnessing that Israel obviously isn't going to help the civilians and they've made it nearly impossible for anyone else to help them without being scrutinized. If you help Palestinians or don't want innocent Palestinians killed then you're against them.
The actions of hamas has resulted in a death sentence to these poor people and Isreal is more than willing to enforce that sentence. I understand why Israel needed to make a statement but they're killing innocent people and anyone with half brain can see that the wrong people are being punished. These are not the people who killed and terrorized Israeli citizens hamas did but there seems to be some confusion between who Israel consider as innocent and who they consider as hamas.
If you believe anyone who is a civilian could also be a member of the group you are trying to destroy...
This is why every call by government and the UN to respect the laws of war and international humanitarian law is impotent. I despair.
This has been the status quo always.
It is well publicised that Israel would use the "we are only after Hamas" to bomb places and then agree deals to withdraw. Monetary, military and other deals.
Maybe it’s all semantics but I just don’t connect with the idea what Israel is doing is as bad as shooting up a music festival of peace loving people, or beheading babies.
but then in modern times it does seem to me that the Islamist groups are competing for how depraved they can be. Maybe the only comparison would be the drug cartels.
Absolutely no point of Hezbollah sitting twiddling their thumbs at this point from a military perspective though. It's one reason why an increasing number are convinced this isn't an Iran thing. Any links to any credible analysts that still think it's a Iran thing?
There's no such thing as credible analysis here. Its simply a train of thought based on a confluence of past and recent events.
The problem with that is that Hamas could wait for that statement to come, and then fire 1000 rockets into Israeli territory that evening. It will be like Bush claiming ‘mission accomplished’ in Iraq in 2003.It would be demonstrably untrue, and the anger at Netanyahu is exceptionally raw and powerful right now. He won’t get the benefit of the doubt.
Yes. Israel feel they don't have a choice but to do so; else a death sentence will exist for its own citizens instead.
Would an offensive by Hezbollah be able to accomplish anything aside from more terror? I don't think the US (or other Western allies) would allow Israel to be occupied, so they would take action themselves, if the Israeli military were to get into a situation they couldn't fix themselves.
There's loads of credible analysts giving their views on the situation. Fair enough if you don't feel they should be given additional weight in their analysis.
You may think they're credible, but they don't know any more than anyone else given that the Israelis are themselves making it all up as they go. We are all in uncharted territory here.
That's correct.
I understand the sentiment, but I just think this kind of language is meaningless. If the bar to achieve Hitler status is killing 1500 people ruthlessly, then Ismail Haniyeh achieved that just last week. There are Hitlers all over the place. Putin being the obvious example, and probably the closest we've got in the world right now.
I can't believe I'm discussing this. Maybe I should take a break from this thread after all, something already kindly suggested by a few posters.
Anyway please understand, I am not waving away the nightmare of what's going on. And I am not making any defence of Netanyahu, he's despicable and I can't wait until he gets what's coming to him.
It will happen again unless they get rid of every single palestinians around. For lack of better words it's a win-win for extremists, Hamas get thousands of martyrs which will likely be avenged by the kids witnessing these events when they are a bit older whether it is under the name of Hamas or something else. The extremist israelis are also winning because palestinians are massacred but they also know that their political future is safe since these events will create a new generation of palestinian terrorists.
That's why it is crucial for someone to act responsibly and start hitting both sides because neither has an incentive for peace while the average israeli and palestinian live in fear of being atomized.
The two claims you are making here are heavily informed by propaganda.
There was no "music festival of peace loving people." It was just a music festival. The claims that it was some kind of "peace" festival were made up.
The claim that Hamas beheaded babies is, as far as I am aware, still unverified. An Israeli government official said two days ago that they could not confirm this claim.
It's not "semantics." It is that one side in this conflict has massive influence and support in the West and wages a propaganda campaign to sell their preferred story.
With respect how much of that is narrative and how much is real?
I mean the babies story has been shown to be untrue by the person who started it initially. But we still run with it.
The festival issue is hard to stomach irregardless but the language around it has changed. It was the sokut (sp) festival that had a music element attached to it. The organisers initially (Billboard magazine) said it was mainly 20-40 year olds. Plenty of police presence and a lot of IDF. Aince then it has become peace loving grannies and teenagers.
Now it doesn't make it right, that's not my point. Killing of children/babies anyone is horrific whether it's by beheading or by bombing. My only point is the changing narrative to gain more sympathy or support or whatever the idea is. Hamas killing 20 year olds is NOT "better" or make their actions anymore palatable. No need to spread lies