Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

fergieisold said:
Maybe it’s all semantics but I just don’t connect with the idea what Israel is doing is as bad as shooting up a music festival of peace loving people, or beheading babies.

but then in modern times it does seem to me that the Islamist groups are competing for how depraved they can be. Maybe the only comparison would be the drug cartels.
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The beheading thing wasn't true.

Besides that, how is dropping bombs which so far have killed something like 10 times the number innocent people, including 700 children, not as bad?

This is before we factor in cutting off electricity, water and food.
 
africanspur said:
I will couch this by saying that I don't know what lowkey specifically posted. If he posted actively pro Russian stuff, he's an idiot.

I'm incredibly sympathetic to the Ukrainian cause. However a lot of PoC in the west were very aware of the hypocrisy regarding Ukraine with comparison to conflicts elsewhere, including Palestine. It wasn't like the Ukrainians didn't get enough help and support. The west mobilised, gave weapons, aid, accused Russia of war crimes, bullied countries in the global south who didn't vote how they wanted in the UN. Meanwhile the Palestinians get the Western leaders lining up to defend Israeli war crimes.

I've always had incredible disdain for other people on the left who supported Assad/Putin/Saddam etc, as part of some anti - imperialism crap, as opposed to being actively supportive of human rights for all worldwide.
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Lowkey was one of those individuals who ridiculed the prospect that 100k Russian troops being put on the border meant an invasion was happening. It was all western propaganda apparently. Then he instantly changed tune after the invasion saying things like the west was weaponising Zelensky's Jewish heritage right as Putin was saying it was a denazification mission. He suddenly went from saying Russia would not be baited by the west to acting like Russia has no choice because of NATO. He blamed the UK winter fuel rises on support for Ukraine. He has turned a blind eye to all the Russian war crimes for a year and a half and in some instances questioned they even happened. He jumps on the back of Zelensky far more crudely than ever with Putin. He now (rightly) criticises Israel for doing the things Russia was doing for the last year and a half. White phosphorus gas was used in Ukraine. Bombing cities to rubble. Kidnapping children, babies, soldiers raping women and destroying crucial infrastructure.

Do I think the western leaders are not consistent in their support? Of course. Only a fool would think otherwise. Geopolitics comes into play with Ukraine. That's not a correct thing and is a moral disgrace. But people like you, me and Lowkey aren't at the geopolitical chess board. So just like I don't think a Ukrainian citizen like Zinchenko being proud in his country's fight means his pro-Israel stance is anyway coherent, I don't find a British citizen who for the last year has shown so much deference to Russia's invasion and war crimes now claiming a moral high ground when Israel does it. I think people like that are not anti-war or anti-imperialist. To be clear I don't think he wanted Putin to launch a war. But not because he didn't want Ukrainians to be killed. Rather because it meant he had to defend war crimes rather than admit the consensus about Putin was right all along and his was wrong.
 
do.ob said:
Would an offensive by Hezbollah be able to accomplish anything aside from more terror? I don't think the US (or other Western allies) would allow Israel to be occupied, so they would take action themselves, if the Israeli military were to get into a situation they couldn't fix themselves.
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Talking with Israeli soldiers over a decade ago, the feeling was while they didn’t really rate Hamas as fighters, Hizballah were a very different proposition and very much respected in those terms. Since then Hizballah have come out mostly victorious in a grueling war in Syria, while the IDF has spent most of its time providing cover for settler attacks in the West Bank. And we’ve all seen how unprepared this current clown government in Jerusalem has them.

Obviously Israel has command of the skies but Hizballah will prove a formidable opponent for the IDF on the ground, as they did for all the years of the Israeli occupation of south Lebanon. It’s not inconceivable for Hizballah to cross the border and occupy some Israeli territory for a time at least. Holding it would obviously be extremely unlikely however.
 
Giggsyking said:
Any information comes out from the IDF should be directly challenged and treated with scepticism, ANY information.
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Exactly! Idk why some are treating their words as gospel. When you deliberately target and snipe a journalist, wearing a bulletproof vest with press written on it and a helmet, right on the neck and then blame it on the Palestinians; amongst a lot of other things; its hard to give their words any creedence.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
The two claims you are making here are heavily informed by propaganda.

There was no "music festival of peace loving people." It was just a music festival. The claims that it was some kind of "peace" festival were made up.

The claim that Hamas beheaded babies is, as far as I am aware, still unverified. An Israeli government official said two days ago that they could not confirm this claim.

It's not "semantics." It is that one side in this conflict has massive influence and support in the West and wages a propaganda campaign to sell their preferred story.
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I didn’t claim it was a peace festival. My point was that being an avid gig and festival goer the idea that this could happen to the type of people that tend to attend those events is unimaginable.

Roane said:
With respect how much of that is narrative and how much is real?

I mean the babies story has been shown to be untrue by the person who started it initially. But we still run with it.

The festival issue is hard to stomach irregardless but the language around it has changed. It was the sokut (sp) festival that had a music element attached to it. The organisers initially (Billboard magazine) said it was mainly 20-40 year olds. Plenty of police presence and a lot of IDF. Aince then it has become peace loving grannies and teenagers.

Now it doesn't make it right, that's not my point. Killing of children/babies anyone is horrific whether it's by beheading or by bombing. My only point is the changing narrative to gain more sympathy or support or whatever the idea is. Hamas killing 20 year olds is NOT "better" or make their actions anymore palatable. No need to spread lies
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To me any music festival, having attended many Glastonbury years is about peace. The overwhelming vibe is peace.

with the babies story I’m behind. I thought it had been confirmed.
 
do.ob said:
Would an offensive by Hezbollah be able to accomplish anything aside from more terror? I don't think the US (or other Western allies) would allow Israel to be occupied, so they would take action themselves, if the Israeli military were to get into a situation they couldn't fix themselves.
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Hezbollah have more capabilities than any other military in the middle east, including some that Israel don't have. I'm not sure they have the ability to defeat Israel, but they have the ability to make Israel fight an exceedingly brutal war. There are currently a lot of experienced people who won't go back to Israel and fight because they don't agree with the government, and because they don't agree with this offensive. If it becomes truly existential to the state, you'll see many many more join up, as well as units like the Georgian Legion etc coming to fight, and they will dial up the brutality to whatever is needed.

Raoul said:
You may think they're credible, but they don't know any more than anyone else given that the Israelis are themselves making it all up as they go. We are all in uncharted territory here.
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I thought we were discussing the origin of the Hamas attacks, whether Iran sponsored them directly and are directing them, and the likelyhood of a planned escalation in a multi-pronged attack by Hezbollah entering the conflict. US intelligence itself believes that Iran are surprised by the attack, and there would be no military justification for holding back Hezbollah. You'd need to have a reason why Hezbollah waiting to attack [for Israels troops to be committed in Gaza] would be rational.

They've waited for them to setup supply chains, for the US to have a CSG and CAG groups in the region, and for the Iron dome to be fully replenished and preloaded with extra ammo. It's only 200km from Gaza to lebanon; you're talking a maximum of 6-8 hours to move heavy armour and artillery, whilst the IAF and Delilah/PH would have instant range, as well as their own naval assets. Hezbollahs biggest asset is their huge array of rockets. Based on what I've read, listened to, and briefed I don't think it's rational. And I do think that analysts are equipped to answer those sort of questions. (I respect your position to think differently; some still do, though not the US government)

ps. I also think some US direct action is possible if they can coordinate with Israel under article 50. I'm not sure its worth its own post at this point, but they seem postured to do so, or at least have the capability.
 
fergieisold said:
Maybe it’s all semantics but I just don’t connect with the idea what Israel is doing is as bad as shooting up a music festival of peace loving people, or beheading babies.

but then in modern times it does seem to me that the Islamist groups are competing for how depraved they can be. Maybe the only comparison would be the drug cartels.
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you may want to read up on what israeli settlers have been doing to palestinian people in the west bank. Someone a few days ago linked the article where some israeli settlers firebombed a palestiniani house, a young family with a baby were burnt to death. The israeli settlers were chanting about the baby being barbequed to death with joy.

israeli soliders shooting palestinian teenagers. murdering a autisic 16 year old with a mental age of a 8 year old. Or ganging up and beating a palestinian down syndrome child.

Or how about entering Al-Asqa mosque and beating up old women who were praying. Theres plenty of horrific behaviour on both sides.

id also refrain from beliveing rhetortic about beheaded babies. As others have said on here previously, we had the same stories for gulf war, for ISIS etc. Unless horrific claims are validated by a independent 3rd party i.e. UN or UNICEF etc then i wouldnt give them any credence.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
The two claims you are making here are heavily informed by propaganda.

There was no "music festival of peace loving people." It was just a music festival. The claims that it was some kind of "peace" festival were made up.

The claim that Hamas beheaded babies is, as far as I am aware, still unverified. An Israeli government official said two days ago that they could not confirm this claim.

It's not "semantics." It is that one side in this conflict has massive influence and support in the West and wages a propaganda campaign to sell their preferred story.
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I think more isn't made up about the propoganda element. Not just here but generally. Sure I understand that history is written by the victors but there is enough information out there to make a more informed choice/decision.

I'm not sure where I put them but I have always wandered how Israel as a fledgling state was able to win 3 wars with the Arabs. Something I looked at a while back.

Because it was a while ago please forgive some of my inaccuracies. I'm sure there is a UN report on this.

But basically a lot of events took place that ensures victory for Israel. Iirc Nasser was seen as an American/Israeli stooge who happened to set off some events meaning the army was engaged there allowing Israel to over power and attack.

Yet we hear this whole Israel has been too strong for Arabs. Not so straight forward if you look at the complete evidence.

There are many times Israel has been called out to be vetoed by the USA and then the narrative is "yeah but the Palestinians". Even their own generals etc have said Israel doesn't like to be told what to do and they have enough support never to be called up on it.

Yet we ignore all that and have arguments like the last few pages
 
I just realised that the most surreal thing isn't going to the safe room when rockets are fired towards my City and I hear the siren.

The surreal thing, like right now, is when rockets are fired toward cities around my own, so there's no siren and I'm just sitting in my living room and hear the rockets either land or being blown by Iron Dome. Of course, while hoping that the systems that calcaulate the trajectory of each rocket doesn't fail. ;)

As weird as it gets.
 
Scarlett Dracarys said:
You don't think that Isreal can protect it's citizens from hamas without killing civilians?
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No. Or rather, I don't feel Israel or its citizens feel they can protect their citizens without this aggressive campaign. I also think there's a revenge aspect there, as well as poorly thought through targeting and strategy. To be clear I don't agree with the scope. But I don't think you could do it without any civilian casualties.
 
fergieisold said:
I didn’t claim it was a peace festival. My point was that being an avid gig and festival goer the idea that this could happen to the type of people that tend to attend those events is unimaginable. To me any music festival, having attended many Glastonbury years is about peace. The overwhelming vibe is peace.
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I've attended music festivals a number of times too and I can't say I associate them with "peace" in any way.

But again, this goes into propaganda. You can control empathy. You can push people to put themselves in your shoes, but not the other person's.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
I've attended music festivals a number of times too and I can't say I associate them with "peace" in any way.
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I think peace may be a bit overstated, but they were ostensibly outdoor clubbers/festival goers there to peacefully have a good time.
 
JPRouve said:
It will happen again unless they get rid of every single palestinians around. For lack of better words it's a win-win for extremists, Hamas get thousands of martyrs which will likely be avenged by the kids witnessing these events when they are a bit older whether it is under the name of Hamas or something else. The extremist israelis are also winning because palestinians are massacred but they also know that their political future is safe since these events will create a new generation of palestinian terrorists.

That's why it is crucial for someone to act responsibly and start hitting both sides because neither has an incentive for peace while the average israeli and palestinian live in fear of being atomized.
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100%. you've posted some brilliant, level-headed posts in this thread. thanks for that.
 
do.ob said:
Would an offensive by Hezbollah be able to accomplish anything aside from more terror? I don't think the US (or other Western allies) would allow Israel to be occupied, so they would take action themselves, if the Israeli military were to get into a situation they couldn't fix themselves.
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theres a possibility Hezbollah are just biding their time. Israel military resources will be stretched by ground invasion of gaza and the need to keep control of the west bank. More troops required at the latter to keep a lid on israeli settlers concerns about saftey and security

Russia found in Ukraine just how difficult urban warfare is. Isreal will lose many of their soldiers in a ground offensive in gaza, just as will hamas in repelling them. If your hezbollah, you sit and wait, let israel get entrenched in a ground war, have their resources stretched and then make your move. Whatever that is.

I hope that hezbollah just stay out of this conflict entirely as we really dont need it escalting any further. Theres been enough loss of innocent life on both sides.
 
Apparently Iran have just warned israel to stop according to al-jalzeera. Looks like hezbollah could be getting involved after all.

Iran has warned Israel to immediately halt its “war crimes” against Gaza or it could face “a huge earthquake” of resistance.
 
dinostar77 said:
By not murdering 700 children.

Israel have the Mossad. If they can assasinate people in the iranian nuclear programme. They certainly have the means to take out the leadership of hamas wherever they are based, no matter what country.

They also have their special forces units. They could surgically take out members of hamas. They could surgically take out buildings they thought were hamas strongholds without indiscrimately bombing gaza.

American Delta forces, UK SAS can do this precision work (its what they are trained for and why they are the best at what they do). No reason israeli equivalent couldnt do so also.
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This isn't Call of Duty I'm afraid. Gaza is too hostile and densely populated, those kind of units still need to be able to develop targets and there is no way in a place like that. There is no way of clearing Hamas out without significant casualties.

That said about Gaza, I think the only thing keeping the leadership safe in Qatar is politics.
 
owlo said:
I have a related/unrelated question. Was the Bahrain referendum seem as fair, or 'decided' by the British imperialists? Would modern day Iran have a valid claim?

And just to keep it on topic, if you've seen any Israeli polling lately, bibi is done. You might get to see him in jail after all. https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveb...-netanyahu-imploding-gantz-taking-the-rudder/
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On a slight tangent, what happened or do you think will happen now to the plans by netanyahu for the planned judicial reforms that caused so many protests in israel?
 
fergieisold said:
I didn’t claim it was a peace festival. My point was that being an avid gig and festival goer the idea that this could happen to the type of people that tend to attend those events is unimaginable.



To me any music festival, having attended many Glastonbury years is about peace. The overwhelming vibe is peace.

with the babies story I’m behind. I thought it had been confirmed.
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I'm in no way justifying the attack on a music festival. Or any attack for that matter.

I get your point about Glastonbury. You simply don't go out to these events to end up what is being reported.

The issue is about the reporting and making things up, for want of a better word.

Let me give you an example. The music event organisers (Brazilian I believe) have stated earlier that the site of the festival was a last minute decision as the original site was no longer an option. Similarly parents have reported that even their kids didn't know about the venue until 3 hours before.

Yet the headline is Hamas targets teenagers in music Festival with plans made up months ago.
 
dinostar77 said:
On a slighy tangent, what happened or do ypu think will happen now to the plans by netanyahu for the planned judicial reforms that caused so many protests in israel.
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They are already shelved; essentially dead in the water. Don't think they'll ever happen.
 
JPRouve said:
It will happen again unless they get rid of every single palestinians around. For lack of better words it's a win-win for extremists, Hamas get thousands of martyrs which will likely be avenged by the kids witnessing these events when they are a bit older whether it is under the name of Hamas or something else. The extremist israelis are also winning because palestinians are massacred but they also know that their political future is safe since these events will create a new generation of palestinian terrorists.

That's why it is crucial for someone to act responsibly and start hitting both sides because neither has an incentive for peace while the average israeli and palestinian live in fear of being atomized.
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Nail on the head.

Bravo.
 
The invasion and bombing are unforgivable. Israel are a disgrace.

"He hit me first sir".

Only Israel can resolve this, but they're determined to behave like children.
 
11101 said:
This isn't Call of Duty I'm afraid. Gaza is too hostile and densely populated, those kind of units still need to be able to develop targets and there is no way in a place like that. There is no way of clearing Hamas out without significant casualties.

That said about Gaza, I think the only thing keeping the leadership safe in Qatar is politics.
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Ok if its too densly populated to do that. Then just take out the leadership of hamas abroad. When one gets replaced take out the next one and the one after that. Scare the crap out of anyone who wants to become a 'leader' in hamas. The message will be clear, doesnt matter if your in Qatar, bangkok, brasil. Wherever you are we will find you and take you out.

Im curious as to what sort of political manouvering is keeping Mossad on a short leach.
 
Footage shows moments before and after Israeli airstrike hits civilian convoy fleeing Gaza

Youtube video from the guardian's page (heavily censored)
 
berbatrick said:
Footage shows moments before and after Israeli airstrike hits civilian convoy fleeing Gaza

Youtube video from the guardian's page (heavily censored)
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This is literally hell on earth. If hell is a place that didn't exist, it does now. IDF does not recognize Palestinians as people anymore.
 
Scarlett Dracarys said:
This is literally hell on earth. If hell is a place that didn't exist, it does now. IDF does not recognize Palestinians as people anymore.
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People will still find collateral damage excuses for this. They also bombed the Rafah crossing a few days ago, where they apparently told people to go to evacuate.
 
hasanejaz88 said:
People will still find collateral damage excuses for this. They also bombed the Rafah crossing a few days ago, where they apparently told people to go to evacuate.
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It's pretty much weeding them out and leading them into a trap. Now they want Palestinians to evacuate before they even consider ending the bombing but who will want to evacuate now? I'm seeing a trend here.
 
2cents said:
Talking with Israeli soldiers over a decade ago, the feeling was while they didn’t really rate Hamas as fighters, Hizballah were a very different proposition and very much respected in those terms. Since then Hizballah have come out mostly victorious in a grueling war in Syria, while the IDF has spent most of its time providing cover for settler attacks in the West Bank. And we’ve all seen how unprepared this current clown government in Jerusalem has them.

Obviously Israel has command of the skies but Hizballah will prove a formidable opponent for the IDF on the ground, as they did for all the years of the Israeli occupation of south Lebanon. It’s not inconceivable for Hizballah to cross the border and occupy some Israeli territory for a time at least. Holding it would obviously be extremely unlikely however.
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I hope this is no longer the case. Dangerous thinking.

berbatrick said:
Footage shows moments before and after Israeli airstrike hits civilian convoy fleeing Gaza

Youtube video from the guardian's page (heavily censored)
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Highly unlikely that's an airstrike or artillery strike. Looks dodgy as feck. More unverified information from "journalists"
 
2cents said:
Talking with Israeli soldiers over a decade ago, the feeling was while they didn’t really rate Hamas as fighters, Hizballah were a very different proposition and very much respected in those terms. Since then Hizballah have come out mostly victorious in a grueling war in Syria, while the IDF has spent most of its time providing cover for settler attacks in the West Bank. And we’ve all seen how unprepared this current clown government in Jerusalem has them.

Obviously Israel has command of the skies but Hizballah will prove a formidable opponent for the IDF on the ground, as they did for all the years of the Israeli occupation of south Lebanon. It’s not inconceivable for Hizballah to cross the border and occupy some Israeli territory for a time at least. Holding it would obviously be extremely unlikely however.
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Hezbollah are the most powerful non state army in the world. They held their own against IDF in previous engagements.

Noob question, is hezbollah commanded by lebanon or iran? Who has the ultimate control over them and who they strike?
 
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