Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

That_Bloke said:
How so?
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He may refer to them just for convenience sake or...he really believes that Hamas is a legitimate resistance organisation and he takes inspiration from the Soviets, Algerians, Vietnamese and Afghans fighting aqainst an invader/occupier.
 
That_Bloke said:
That was much needed post. She's not only a great job but also shed a light on the mindset of the Hamas.
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The mindset of Hamas (ie. he brazenly lied to her face about targeting civilians) as well as the broader Arab mindset that they don't want to get dragged into a regional war based on a tragic miscalculation made by Hamas leaders.
 
I think what Israel is doing is creating a new badge of anti-semites which is rather unfortunate. This does not make sense anymore and the US are the bigger cnuts for vetoing the UN security resolution. Everyone can now see why Israel keep building settlements because the US nodge them on. The obstacle to peace in this region is the US
 
Roane said:
Not sure if I'm from the same generation as you, I'm in my 50's.

But this narrative is false. There is literally quotes from way back that "prove" this to be false. In writings from various factions involved.

There are quotes literally saying there is no right to claim to the land 2000 years, or whatever, after but it will give an ally for Suez, for example.

The notion of rights and freedom for the "natives" was discussed. Certain proposals put forward. The acknowledgement of what the it's bits and maybes would be discussed at length.

People claiming to want "philosophical discussions" won't even accept the "proofs" put forward. A case in point is the whole "only democracy in the Middle East". People more knowl dgeable and literate than me laugh at this. Even from the Jewish side. Yet no we on here push a narrative. Get pulled on it and all of a sudden it's "people don't want to engage..."

More like people have picked a side and just push BS
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I am in my later 70's so I have a few years on you.

Not sure what the narrative is that you refer to?

My earliest memory of the Palestine/Israel situation was of my uncle telling me about when he served in the Palestine Police and of a friend of his from that service who (so my uncle claimed) later tried to arrest Mencham Begin when he came on a state visit to Britain as Israel's PM. Begin had been the leader of a militant breakaway faction (Irgun) in Israel, and apparently there was still an outstanding warrant for his arrest, from the 1940's which my uncle's mate tried to serve when Begin stepped off the plane. This story fascinated me, but I cannot remember the name of my uncle's friend, or even if this event took place at all, in fact I can only find a reference to Begin being arrested in September 1940.

My Uncle's story did however heighten my interest and as I was now in my mid twenties (and no longer believed everything my uncle told me) I took an interest in trying to keep up and understand what was happening in that part of the world and after the 1973 Yom Kippur war when Israel's eventual victory over three of the surrounding Arab states, changed everything for Israel, from simply trying to survive to becoming the continuing occupier of land in the West Bank (that took place in 1967 ) and a major player in the middle East.

At the end of WW2 it appeared that Britain was glad to get out of the mandate for Palestine (held from after WW1 up to 1948) at least my uncle confirmed this for me, when despite my ability to find things out for myself he continued to regale me with his exploits in the ME.

The hatred that seems to have been the only thing sustained between the parties on both sides over the intervening years, has a times seemed close to being suppressed (if not over come) but never has; whilst the 'to the death' emphasis which always seems to pervade beneath the surface in any of the attempts to search for peace is removed, it is difficult to see how things can get better, for either side... or indeed the world.
 
Raoul said:
The mindset of Hamas (ie. he brazenly lied to her face about targeting civilians) as well as the broader Arab mindset that they don't want to get dragged into a regional war based on a tragic miscalculation made by Hamas leaders.
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Yeah, the dogma rather than any politicking was mad. Usually they'd avoid that lie so close to it being proven thus.
 
moses said:
His calm matter of fact manner about the inevitable casualties is chilling and but notably honest. It shows the mindset we are engaging with. And more honesty, as hard as it is to hear, is required to untangle. The double speak from all sides is absurd.

That said, the lines about focusing on military targets rings very hollow after the initial attacks.
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You know someone is full of shit when they say we only focus on military targets but then took circa 200 people captive into Gaza.
 
Raoul said:
Killing Jews is literally in the Hamas charter.

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him".

It would therefore not be an exaggeration to say that Hamas exists to kill Israelis, because it is literally written into their founding document, the tenets of which were acted out once again as recently as 7 Oct.
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I've already posted King-Crane report from 1922. Why are you trying to make out hat it all began with Hamas in 1987?

Israel exists to kill Muslims and Christians is closer to the truth and happening for much longer.

Take this view:

“… the harm done by dumping down an alien population upon an Arab country – Arab all around in the hinterland – may never be remedied … what we have done is, by concessions, not to the Jewish people but to a Zionist extreme section, to start a running sore in the East, and no one can tell how far that sore will extend.”

Lord Sydenham to Balfour.

Or

“The Zionists are after a Jewish State with the Arabs as hewers of wood and drawers of water.

Curzon


. We are dealing not with the wishes of an existing community but are consciously seeking to reconstitute a new community and definitely building for a numerical majority in the future …”

Balfour
 
Raoul said:
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They want to sacrifice their citizens, used as human shields, to achieve their goal. The attack on Israel, killing babies and mutilating women, was as gruesome as it was to provoke as harsh a response from Israel as possible.
 
Roane said:
Not sure if I'm from the same generation as you, I'm in my 50's.

But this narrative is false. There is literally quotes from way back that "prove" this to be false. In writings from various factions involved.

There are quotes literally saying there is no right to claim to the land 2000 years, or whatever, after but it will give an ally for Suez, for example.

The notion of rights and freedom for the "natives" was discussed. Certain proposals put forward. The acknowledgement of what the it's bits and maybes would be discussed at length.

People claiming to want "philosophical discussions" won't even accept the "proofs" put forward. A case in point is the whole "only democracy in the Middle East". People more knowl dgeable and literate than me laugh at this. Even from the Jewish side. Yet no we on here push a narrative. Get pulled on it and all of a sudden it's "people don't want to engage..."

More like people have picked a side and just push BS
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I am the 'people claiming to want philosophical discussions'....
So why try to address me through a 3rd party and not directly. And by the way, I have no idea what so called "proofs" you are going on about.
Maybe you would care to explain.
 
E-mal said:
Imagine Israel threatening Russia, that is a very stupid take from someone with half a brain.
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He's a nutjob but the one bit that was vaguely grounded in reality is that the Israelis will win their war and will probably start helping Ukraine more, either with expertise, intelligence or in other ways. I doubt the neither the Ukrainians or Russians care though since the former are receiving billions in aid and support from the west, and Israel aren't going to waste much time moaning about Putin's lack of suppport.
 
e.cantona said:
They want to sacrifice their citizens, used as human shields, to achieve their goal. The attack on Israel, killing babies and mutilating women, was as gruesome as it was to provoke as harsh a response from Israel as possible.
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This much is obvious. Hamas didn't have the support or firepower to defeat Israeli militarily, but they instead thought luring them into a spectacular retaliation may animate the Arab street into forcing Israel to somehow capitulate and negotiate with Hamas. This of course won't happen, as the Israelis are about to go into Gaza and totally get rid of Hamas. How much ally soft power they lose in the process is anyone's guess.
 
Raoul said:
He's a nutjob but the one bit that was vaguely grounded in reality is that the Israelis will win their war and will probably start helping Ukraine more, either with expertise, intelligence or in other ways. I doubt the neither the Ukrainians or Russians care though since the former are receiving billions in aid and support from the west, and Israel aren't going to waste much time moaning about Putin's lack of suppport.
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No matter how much support Ukraine get, they wont defeat Russia. That war is over
Israel is in much worse condition than Russia as Palestinians are not going away and that war will never end because Israel have shot themselves in the foot by denying the legitimate rights of their neighbours.
 
VorZakone said:
He may refer to them just for convenience sake or...he really believes that Hamas is a legitimate resistance organisation and he takes inspiration from the Soviets, Algerians, Vietnamese and Afghans fighting aqainst an invader/occupier.
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Why wouldn't he believe that?
 
Buster15 said:
I am the 'people claiming to want philosophical discussions'....
So why try to address me through a 3rd party and not directly. And by the way, I have no idea what so called "proofs" you are going on about.
Maybe you would care to explain.
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You have no idea that the current Arab-Israeli conflict didn't begin in the "post-WWII world"...?
 
E-mal said:
No matter how much support Ukraine get, they wont defeat Russia. That war is over
Israel is in much worse condition than Russia as Palestinians are not going away and that war will never end because Israel have shot themselves in the foot by denying the legitimate rights of their neighbours.
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The Russians have already lost that war by not achieving their goals of taking over Ukraine. At this point, Putin barely has much much more meaningful land than when he started.

As for the Palestinians, they are not going away, but the Israelis can put an end to Hamas, which is their goal.
 
Raoul said:
The Russians have already lost that war by not achieving their goals of taking over Ukraine. At this point, Putin barely has much much more meaningful land than when he started.

As for the Palestinians, they are not going away, but the Israelis can put an end to Hamas, which is their goal.
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Putin started with the aim to annex Kharkhiv, odesa and Lugansk. He was never interested in Kyiv and they basically gave Kyiv back willingly. America is just wasting money on UKraine and Zelensky should have accepted the peace terms in minsk. It is not just my opinion, read and listen to unbiased analysis about the war in Ukraine.

Hamas is an Idea mate, you cant kill an idea. The solution is political not war.
 
E-mal said:
Putin started with the aim to annex Kharkhiv, odesa and Lugansk. He was never interested in Kyiv and they basically gave Kyiv back willingly. America is just wasting money on UKraine and Zelensky should have accepted the peace terms in minsk. It is not just my opinion, read and listen to unbiased analysis about the war in Ukraine.

Hamas is an Idea mate, you cant kill an idea. The solution is political not war.
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That's not correct, but that's a discussion for the Ukraine thread, not here.
 
The Corinthian said:


It’s crazy seeing the disconnect between world leaders and the people they govern. Israelis in Israel against Bibi and the War. Palestinians protesting against Abbas’ leadership. Egyptians fighting against Sisi. There’s another protest tomorrow in London (there’s actually 2) and similarly we’ve seen the French defy Macron and the Germans defy their fascist-lite laws. There’s also a sit in of US based Jews in DC against the US position (as well as the poll above).
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Why do you see it as crazy, in this context,?

The reality is there's a huge disconnect between politicians and the general population on virtually every issue there is, Brexit in the UK, gun control and abortion in the US are obvious examples
 
moses said:
Me too, but in fairness it doesn't take up much of my time so if this new gig is as easy I could defo do both.
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I don't think we need to bow to Mecca or eat halal, we haven't been and we're Muslims so clearly its not necessary.

Gonna be tricky to parse this with my Buddhist philosophy.
 
E-mal said:
Putin started with the aim to annex Kharkhiv, odesa and Lugansk. He was never interested in Kyiv and they basically gave Kyiv back willingly. America is just wasting money on UKraine and Zelensky should have accepted the peace terms in minsk. It is not just my opinion, read and listen to unbiased analysis about the war in Ukraine.

Hamas is an Idea mate, you cant kill an idea. The solution is political not war.
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You're funny.
 
Buster15 said:
Sorry but what is this supposed to mean?
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The comment Roane replied to
Maticmaker said:
You and I are from the same generation and know this situation has it's roots back in post WW2, with the desire of the Alliance to find a homeland for the Jewish people who had suffered terribly before and during that war
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The comment you replied to
Roane said:
But this narrative is false. There is literally quotes from way back that "prove" this to be false. In writings from various factions involved.

There are quotes literally saying there is no right to claim to the land 2000 years, or whatever, after but it will give an ally for Suez, for example.

The notion of rights and freedom for the "natives" was discussed. Certain proposals put forward. The acknowledgement of what the it's bits and maybes would be discussed at length.
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Your reply
Buster15 said:
And by the way, I have no idea what so called "proofs" you are going on about.
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Roane was referring to issues that arose 1) before the post WWII world and 2) contain statements that reveal different motivations that existed prior to the post-WWII world existing
 
E-mal said:
Putin started with the aim to annex Kharkhiv, odesa and Lugansk. He was never interested in Kyiv and they basically gave Kyiv back willingly. America is just wasting money on UKraine and Zelensky should have accepted the peace terms in minsk. It is not just my opinion, read and listen to unbiased analysis about the war in Ukraine.

Hamas is an Idea mate, you cant kill an idea. The solution is political not war.
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You are talking absolute nonsense. But best spout your shit in the appropriate thread.
 
owlo said:
No, I’ve decided that people who ignore measured balanced expert opinions in favour or sensationalist often unverified media are juvenile. It speaks to a want of wanting to spread an opinion, rather than debate and educate on a situation.

Its not about engagement with my posts per se, it’s about the type of media they choose to engage in and proliferate.
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owlo said:


“Your war and destruction only approach has opened my eyes and many Palestinian Americans and Muslims Americans like me. We will remember where you stood.” kind of sounds like a threat to the United States.
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Yeah, true!
 
Raoul said:
This much is obvious. Hamas didn't have the support or firepower to defeat Israeli militarily, but they instead thought luring them into a spectacular retaliation may animate the Arab street into forcing Israel to somehow capitulate and negotiate with Hamas. This of course won't happen, as the Israelis are about to go into Gaza and totally get rid of Hamas. How much ally soft power they lose in the process is anyone's guess.
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It is. It's just the revulsiveness of him being so matter of fact about it. Anyway, don't know if Hamas really want negotiations. Their whole existence is about being rid of Jews. However, portraying Israel as as bad as themselves is probably their objective in the short term, I belive you're saying. Agree with that
 
marktan said:
4100 dead so far in Gaza. More if you include those under the rubble and the fighters that died in Israel.

Shall we take bets at what level will the deaths be too much and the rhetoric from the west will finally become for a ceasefire? Previous conflicts have shown that Israel likes to inflict at least 10x the deaths, so 10,000 is probably the figure we're looking at.

That's the state of play with Israel and Gaza right now and we still have people in the world thinking Israel is justified. Human beings reduced to numbers. I'm a 100% sure they've discussed in private at what level of deaths do they slow down.
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It depends on what the exchange rate at the moment, because it fluctuates like stock depending on America's support. That is the reason why America has vetoed UN security decision until Israel is able to get its pound of flesh. It is sad on both sides and a futile excercise to kill more innocent civilians.
 
Buster15 said:
I am the 'people claiming to want philosophical discussions'....
So why try to address me through a 3rd party and not directly. And by the way, I have no idea what so called "proofs" you are going on about.
Maybe you would care to explain.
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I was at work so reading through the various comments and points. Saw one as a response and tagged my point to that. I'm not obliged to read back and address everything individually. You've read it so make your points.

I've further given direct quotes from as back as 1922 that raised points about Zionist/Israel motives and the potential for long drawn out conflict. I'm sure you've read them if you are reading this thread.

These are the proofs I refer to which negate the whole post WW2 argument that had been put forward.
 
Roane said:
I've already posted King-Crane report from 1922. Why are you trying to make out hat it all began with Hamas in 1987?

Israel exists to kill Muslims and Christians is closer to the truth and happening for much longer.

Take this view:

“… the harm done by dumping down an alien population upon an Arab country – Arab all around in the hinterland – may never be remedied … what we have done is, by concessions, not to the Jewish people but to a Zionist extreme section, to start a running sore in the East, and no one can tell how far that sore will extend.”

Lord Sydenham to Balfour.

Or

“The Zionists are after a Jewish State with the Arabs as hewers of wood and drawers of water.

Curzon


. We are dealing not with the wishes of an existing community but are consciously seeking to reconstitute a new community and definitely building for a numerical majority in the future …”

Balfour
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I think this is always worth noting. This is not a situation that has taken a turn for the worst. This is how it has been since its inception.

There are texts from pre WWI and it was known that this would be the nature of a Jewish state in the Middle East, crystallised in the 1923 essay The Iron Wall.
 
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