Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[owlo]

I agree with you, and that's exactly why one shouldn't go on making blanket statements or fall for it. The general trend tries to make you pick a side. It's a false dichotomy, there is no side.

In that particular god forsaken region, both people, who have much more in common than what the average Joe knows, want and deserve to live in peace. Side by side, without fearing for the life of their own children.

There’s no side even within sides, especially on the Jewish/israeli/Zionist side. There are basic principles but the opinions range from very moderate to kill all Muslims in our lands.

And I’m on some Pakistani navy officers telegram; obviously they are very pro Palestinian (they generally advocate even more militant action, describe all israelis as the enemy etc) but a couple of them just shrug and call it fair game and there’s a clear range of opinions, even in that relative extremist fringe

 

[owlo]

I think that discussing this topic, more than any other I can think of on the Caf, I’m guilty of making snap-responses without taking the few extra seconds I probably should to gauge the post and the poster.

It’s such an emotive situation.

Think we’re all guilty of it to some extent honestly! I certainly am. (Note to self which I will ignore inside 30 seconds: don’t argue with extremists who wont look at evidence anyway)

 

[langster]

This is the essence of the debate. If you are left wing or Muslim you support the Palestinians. If you are right wing or Jewish you support Israel. The facts in between are hopelessly lost as both sides are quite happy to fabricate unashamedly and behave appallingly by western standards. Judging either side through the prism of our own secular liberal democracy is to misunderstand everything about the conflict.

I vehemently disagree. I think a large percentage of people posting here have put politics and religion aside and are just commenting from the heart. I think many are just horrified at the whole situation and disgusted at both sides for the needless loss of life and horrific and brutal events and methods causing so many innocent victims.

I think it goes without saying that everyone here is disgusted at the attacks by Hamas. I also think the majority are disgusted at Israel's response. Some are justifying the response from Israel, but a larger percentage of posters are not justifying or agreeing with Hamas or what they did and are doing, but explaining why and trying to help others understand. Again, I reiterate that doesn't mean people are agreeing with Hamas or supporting them. Again, I think the vast majority, even those with a bias, still are here on the side of the innocent people suffering this nightmare.

I am neither Jewish or Muslim, but I am a socialist. I have posted only a few times in here because I freely admit I am not well versed in the finer intricacies of the history of the region. This thread, from its inception has been incredibly informative and helped me understand more than anywhere else I have seen it discussed, and it has also provided many useful links to outside sources too.

However, the last few pages have been bogged down with some atrocious takes, needless retorts and some incredibly unhelpful posts. That being said, on the whole it's still far more balanced than anywhere else I've seen and again, although bias is clear from some, the majority are only taking sides of the innocent people in the middle of all this, no matter if they are Jewish or Palestinian or a members of the UN or the press or foreign visitors. I would say the facts certainly do matter, it's just that sadly they can be lost or missed due to the needless and pedantic arguments that can overshadow the thread at times. However, that is to be expected in a thread where the topic is highly sensitive and so much emotion, passion and history is present and being discussed.

 

[Cloud7]

I vehemently disagree. I think a large percentage of people posting here have put politics and religion aside and are just commenting from the heart. I think many are just horrified at the whole situation and disgusted at both sides for the needless loss of life and horrific and brutal events and methods causing so many innocent victims.

I think it goes without saying that everyone here is disgusted at the attacks by Hamas. I also think the majority are disgusted at Israel's response. Some are justifying the response from Israel, but a larger percentage of posters are not justifying or agreeing with Hamas or what they did and are doing, but explaining why and trying to help others understand. Again, I reiterate that doesn't mean people are agreeing with Hamas or supporting them. Again, I think the vast majority, even those with a bias, still are here on the side of the innocent people suffering this nightmare.

I am neither Jewish or Muslim, but I am a socialist. I have posted only a few times in here because I freely admit I am not well versed in the finer intricacies of the history of the region. This thread, from its inception has been incredibly informative and helped me understand more than anywhere else I have seen it discussed, and it has also provided many useful links to outside sources too.

However, the last few pages have been bogged down with some atrocious takes, needless retorts and some incredibly unhelpful posts. That being said, on the whole it's still far more balanced than anywhere else I've seen and again, although bias is clear from some, the majority are only taking sides of the innocent people in the middle of all this, no matter if they are Jewish or Palestinian or a members of the UN or the press or foreign visitors. I would say the facts certainly do matter, it's just that sadly they can be lost or missed due to the needless and pedantic arguments that can overshadow the thread at times. However, that is to be expected in a thread where the topic is highly sensitive and so much emotion, passion and history is present and being discussed.

Solid post mate. Bolded bits are exactly where I’m at.

 

[Pintu]

This has been going on for about 10 days now, where Israelis have been asking people to move south because they are going to invade North Gaza and Gaza City.

Telling people who hesitate to get ethnically cleansed that they are « terrorist » for 10 days or 20 days don’t make it any more palatable. It is still crazy borderline genocidal rhetoric.

 

[Raoul]

Telling people who hesitate to get ethnically cleansed that they are « terrorist » for 10 days or 20 days don’t make it any more palatable. It is still crazy borderline genocidal rhetoric.

That's not what they're telling them though. They are asking them to move south. In many ways, it is somewhat unprecedented for a military to give a population a 10 plus day warning that their area isn't safe and that they should move further south.

 

[NicolaSacco]

Think we’re all guilty of it to some extent honestly! I certainly am. (Note to self which I will ignore inside 30 seconds: don’t argue with extremists who wont look at evidence anyway)

Yep, I get ya, and I likely will not learn either!

It’s such a car crash of a situation. Thousands upon thousands of deaths, the majority of whom, on both sides are likely guilty of nothing other than where they were born. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a situation such as this, where it seems almost completely unsolvable. I’m naturally an optimist, after all the vast majority of people want to live their lives in peace, and in most scenarios this would generally (if slowly) lead towards that end. But I struggle to stay optimistic here.

 

[RedTiger]

Thats the flag of the welfare party of kerala, they're the ones who took out the march.

 

[E-mal]

It is sad how Lebanon have lost their sovereignty but what the PM is saying is true. Israeli government are damn stupid if they think continuing this war will make them safer. They have neglected peace with the Palestinians and they are not listening to their neighbours. The only reason why they are so defiant is because they have the US to back them up. Peace has never been achieved true violence but negotiation and making concession.

 

[Pintu]

Jordanian King holding his speech in English. (Don’t know what he is saying in arabic the first minute, someone here?)

 

[Raoul]

Jordanian King holding his speech in English. (Don’t know what he is saying in arabic the first minute, someone here?)

Its mostly Arabic introductions until about 30 seconds + thanking Sisi for holding the meeting. He then talks about the importance of the meeting and the effort needed to immediately stop the humanitarian catastrophe that is affecting the middle east. He then says please allow me to speak in English for our friends from Europe and around the world that are with us here today, and my message to them.

 

[dinostar77]

Jordanian King holding his speech in English. (Don’t know what he is saying in arabic the first minute, someone here?)

Thats one helluva speech.

 

[Ekkie Thump]

Jordanian King holding his speech in English. (Don’t know what he is saying in arabic the first minute, someone here?)

This is a hell of a speech.

 

[Hugh Jass]

Paddy cosgrave has resigned.

 

[Buster15]

This is the essence of the debate. If you are left wing or Muslim you support the Palestinians. If you are right wing or Jewish you support Israel. The facts in between are hopelessly lost as both sides are quite happy to fabricate unashamedly and behave appallingly by western standards. Judging either side through the prism of our own secular liberal democracy is to misunderstand everything about the conflict.

Probably one of the most sweeping generalisations I have ever read.

 

[JPRouve]

Thats the flag of the welfare party of kerala, they're the ones who took out the march.

The replies are quite amazing. A bunch of people believed the uneducated tweet and instead of accepting it, they decide to double down and insult.

 

[the hea]

Telling people who hesitate to get ethnically cleansed that they are « terrorist » for 10 days or 20 days don’t make it any more palatable. It is still crazy borderline genocidal rhetoric.

Urging civilians to evacuate from a battlefield is not ethnic cleansing, it's abiding by the laws of war. It's when Israel forcefully moves civilians from their homes when it becomes ethnic cleansing. For example in Ukraine no one is calling the evacuation of civilians from Russian aggression for ethnic cleansing but when Russia is kidnapping thousands of children and moving them to Russia it is considered ethnic cleansing.

There is a lot we can criticize the IDF for but this is not one thing. The biggest priority for both IDF, Hamas or any other part in any war should always be the evacuation of civilians.

 

[Pintu]

Its mostly Arabic introductions until about 30 seconds + thanking Sisi for holding the meeting. He then talks about the importance of the meeting and the effort needed to immediately stop the humanitarian catastrophe that is affecting the middle east. He then says please allow me to speak in English for our friends from Europe and around the world that are with us here today, and my message to them.

Thank you

 

[That_Bloke]

That's not what they're telling them though. They are asking them to move south. In many ways, it is somewhat unprecedented for a military to give a population a 10 plus day warning that their area isn't safe and that they should move further south.

To go where though?

It's not like there's any better living conditions in the South. There's no shelter, no food, no water, nothing. Where are you going to sleep? How are you going to feed your family? What are you going to do with the elderlies, the physically disabled and the sick/wounded plugged to machines that keep them alive? Food, power, medical aid are still cut off. Water has been only partially turned on. The 20 trucks Israel allowed in, in a mighty gesture of good will after two weeks of bombing the living crap out of the city, aren't going to change the absolute nightmare that Gaza is at the moment. The UN organizations ask for 2,000 trucks to alleviate the humanitarian crisis there.

I've read and seen many reports from humanitarian organizations there and you wouldn't believe how bad the situation is. There are dangers of cholera and other hygiene related diseases, about 65% of the children are suffering from diarrhea, the stench, the total absence of hygiene, people defecating on the streets and reduced to boil toilet or (polluted) sea water to have something to drink. Doctors forced to buy and use vinegar as a disinfectant. How they operate under the bombings. How some of the wounded need to be evacuated from there because there simply isn't anyway to treat them in Gaza in the current conditions but still stay there because no one can escape that living hell. And these courageous people aren't from Hamas.

And they're eventually going to be forced to leave the South at some point, when the IDF is finished with the North. What are they going to find there? Is there anything to go back to?

 

[Raoul]

To go where though?

It's not like there's any better living conditions in the south. There's no shelter, no food, no water, nothing. What are you going to do with the elderlies, the physically disabled and the sick/wounded plugged to machines that keep them alive? Food, power, medical aid are still cut off. Water has been only partially turned on. The 20 trucks Israel allowed in, in a mighty gesture of good will, while keeping on the bombing the iving crap out of the city, aren't going to change the absolute nightmare that Gaza is at the moment. The UN organizations ask for 2,000 trucks to alleviate the humanitarian crisis there.

I've read and seen many reports from humanitarian organizations there and you wouldn't believe how bad the situation is. There are dangers of cholera, about 65% of the children are suffering from diarrhea, the stench, the total absence of hygiene, people defecating on the streets and reduced to boil toilet or (polluted) sea water to have something to drink. Doctors forced to buy and use vinegar as a disinfectant. How they operate under the bombings. How some of the wounded need to be evacuated from there because there simply isn't anyway to treat them in Gaza in the current conditions but still stay there. And these courageous people aren't from Hamas.

Its obviously a tragic situation in that the invasion is almost certainly going to happen very soon, where the Israelis are clearly looking at invading the two northern most sections of Gaza (North Gaza and Gaza City) and fighting the initial phase of the war with Hamas there, then once secured, moving into the other areas. Therefore the people in the northern areas would have to move south or else risk dying. Its going to be a humanitarian disaster either way since there aren't enough resources to provide shelter/food/water/medicine/basic services to those that move. There are also people in the northern sections who for medical reasons, don't have the resources to move. The bottom line, we are going see unprecedented levels of death, destruction, and displacement in the coming weeks and months unless the international community can find a way to temporarily move the civilians from Gaza to a safe space outside the strip until the fighting stops. There are however no easy solutions that are also realistic given that neither the Israelis nor Hamas are going to back down.

 

[RedTiger]

Urging civilians to evacuate from a battlefield is not ethnic cleansing, it's abiding by the laws of war. It's when Israel forcefully moves civilians from their homes when it becomes ethnic cleansing. For example in Ukraine no one is calling the evacuation of civilians from Russian aggression for ethnic cleansing but when Russia is kidnapping thousands of children and moving them to Russia it is considered ethnic cleansing.

There is a lot we can criticize the IDF for but this is not one thing. The biggest priority for both IDF, Hamas or any other part in any war should always be the evacuation of civilians.

Ethnic cleansing is when those civilians aren't allowed back after the conflict, something Israel has a vast history of.

 

[glazed]

I agree with you, and that's exactly why one shouldn't go on making blanket statements or fall for it. The general trend tries to make you pick a side. It's a false dichotomy, there is no side.

Unfortunately this is western thinking and neither side has much time for it on the ground. And while it is of course a blanket statement I made, it is also largely true. If we were able to impose western secular values on the two sides then there would not be a conflict in the first place.

Of course western secular values were responsible for the Holocaust as well as the colonial partition of the Middle East so perhaps we should be a little more self aware?

Ethnic cleansing is when those civilians aren't allowed back after the conflict, something Israel has a vast history of.

It seems fairly obvious that the Israeli game plan (in so much as they have one) is to force the Gazans into the south of the strip through violence and lack of water, then destroy Gaza City and leave the population with a choice of living in makeshift camps supported by aid via Egypt or become actual refugees. Whether they will be able to pull this off is another matter.

 

[the hea]

Ethnic cleansing is when those civilians aren't allowed back after the conflict, something Israel has a vast history of.

They definitely have done that and should be held accountable for it but that doesn't mean we should start calling the evacuation of civilians for ethnic cleansing and urge participants in any future conflict to ignore these priorities. An invasion of north Gaza is coming and the best thing right now would be to get as many civilians out of north Gaza as safe as possible.
This is where Europe, the US and all the Middle Eastern countries could make a huge difference because right now enough isn't done from any of those parties to provide the basic needs for the people of Gaza.

 

[gfactor86]

To go where though?

It's not like there's any better living conditions in the south. There's no shelter, no food, no water, nothing. Where are you going to sleep? How are you going to feed your family? What are you going to do with the elderlies, the physically disabled and the sick/wounded plugged to machines that keep them alive? Food, power, medical aid are still cut off. Water has been only partially turned on. The 20 trucks Israel allowed in, in a mighty gesture of good will after two weeks of hell while still the bombing the living crap out of the city, aren't going to change the absolute nightmare that Gaza is at the moment. The UN organizations ask for 2,000 trucks to alleviate the humanitarian crisis there.

I've read and seen many reports from humanitarian organizations there and you wouldn't believe how bad the situation is. There are dangers of cholera and other hygiene related diseases, about 65% of the children are suffering from diarrhea, the stench, the total absence of hygiene, people defecating on the streets and reduced to boil toilet or (polluted) sea water to have something to drink. Doctors forced to buy and use vinegar as a disinfectant. How they operate under the bombings. How some of the wounded need to be evacuated from there because there simply isn't anyway to treat them in Gaza in the current conditions but still stay there because no one can escape that living hell. And these courageous people aren't from Hamas.

And they're eventually going to be forced to leave the South at some point, when the IDF is finished with the North. What are they going to find there? Is there anything to go back to?

the issue is that they voted in Hamas. They hate Israel and don't want peace. They only want Israel eradicated and the Jews to leave "their" land.

their Arab neighbours don't really care about them either.

the IDF will likely turn Gaza to rubble. There won't be any winner

 

[JPRouve]

the issue is that they voted in Hamas. They hate Israel and don't want peace. They only want Israel eradicated and the Jews to leave "their" land.

their Arab neighbours don't really care about them either.

the IDF will likely turn Gaza to rubble. There won't be any winner

Is that a running joke or people are that clueless about the topic?

 

[gfactor86]

the issue is that they voted in Hamas. They hate Israel and don't want peace. They only want Israel eradicated and the Jews to leave "their" land.

their Arab neighbours don't really care about them either.

the IDF will likely turn Gaza to rubble. There won't be any winner

Israel is the only country to have ever offered a state to the Palestinians. On 5 occasions, each time it's rejected. The other Arabs nations. Notably Jordan and Egypt and just as culpable as Israel

 

[gfactor86]

Is that a running joke or people are that clueless about the topic?

What can be the basis of a negotiation if the other party is committed to your absolute destruction?

Israel cannot win here.If they drop their weapons then they will be destroyed.

 

[JPRouve]

What can be the basis of a negotiation if the other party is committed to your absolute destruction?

Israel cannot win here.If they drop their weapons then they will be destroyed.

Israel has no will to negotiate, the party they actually voted for and the extremist(Likud, a bunch of nationalist and religious nationalists) they elected have no will for negotiation and they also want to get rid of Palestine. But that's beside the point I made, current gazans didn't vote for Hamas, the last election was in 2006 and at least 76% of the current population have never voted in their lives.

 

[gfactor86]

Israel has no will to negotiate, the party they actually voted for and the extremist(Likud, a bunch of nationalist and religious nationalists) they elected have no will for negotiation and they also want to get rid of Palestine. But that's beside the point I made, current gazans didn't vote for Hamas, the last election was in 2006 and at least 76% of the current population have never voted in their lives.

In 2005 Israel unilaterally vacated Gaza and demolished its settlements to give Palestinians autonomy of their own land.

all they've had ever since is Hamas declaring the destruction of Israel and missile attacks.

if Hamas drops its weapons there would be peace. If Israel drops its weapons, there will be no more Israel

 

[Raoul]

srael has no will to negotiate, the party they actually voted for and the extremist(Likud, a bunch of nationalist and religious nationalists) they elected have no will for negotiation and they also want to get rid of Palestine. But that's beside the point I made, current gazans didn't vote for Hamas, the last election was in 2006 and at least 76% of the current population have never voted in their lives.

Nor do Hamas, which is why we are in this situation. The power dynamic between the two is disproportionately on the Israeli side, so any attempt by Hamas to do what they did two weeks ago could end result in bringing Israelis into a war mindset where they feel they have to once and for all get rid of Hamas.

 

[gfactor86]

If Hamas had the same weaponry that Israel has, they'd blow Israel off the map without a 2nd thought about civilian deaths.

 

[JPRouve]

In 2005 Israel unilaterally vacated Gaza and demolished its settlements to give Palestinians autonomy of their own land.

all they've had ever since is Hamas declaring the destruction of Israel and missile attacks.

if Hamas drops its weapons there would be peace. If Israel drops its weapons, there will be no more Israel

So you are going to side step everytime your claims are challenged?

If Israel wants to negotiate why haven't they negotiate with the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank but instead promoted and protected settlers who kill and take lands on a weekly basis?

 

[gfactor86]

Most of the IDF defence budget is spent on the iron dome. This is a defensive system to protect itself from contact rocket attacks.

imagine the destruction and death toll on the Israeli side if they didn't have this

 

[JPRouve]

Nor do Hamas, which is why we are in this situation. The power dynamic between the two is disproportionately on the Israeli side, so any attempt by Hamas to do what they did two weeks ago could end result in bringing Israelis into a war mindset where they have to once and for all get rid of Hamas.

Hamas position is known and Hamas is considered by nearly everyone as a plague. Here I responded to someone who made a bogus point about Israel not Hamas.

 

[gfactor86]

So you are going to side step everytime your claims are challenged?

If Israel wants to negotiate why haven't they negotiate with the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank but instead promoted and protected settlers who kill and take lands on a weekly basis?

Abbas is useless has he ever come to the table with anything reasonable? In any case he is powerless because Gaza/Hamas won't accept anything but a 1 state solution with no Jews "from river to the sea"

 

[JPRouve]

Abbas is useless has he ever come to the table with anything reasonable? In any case he is powerless because Gaza/Hamas won't accept anything but a 1 state solution with no Jews "from river to the sea"

So it's all palestinians? One side is reasonable and willing to negotiate while the palestinians aren't?

 

[Giggsyking]

Urging civilians to evacuate from a battlefield is not ethnic cleansing, it's abiding by the laws of war. It's when Israel forcefully moves civilians from their homes when it becomes ethnic cleansing. For example in Ukraine no one is calling the evacuation of civilians from Russian aggression for ethnic cleansing but when Russia is kidnapping thousands of children and moving them to Russia it is considered ethnic cleansing.

There is a lot we can criticize the IDF for but this is not one thing. The biggest priority for both IDF, Hamas or any other part in any war should always be the evacuation of civilians.

Did they let the 5m Palestinians return to their land. Who are you kidding? its like people forget that internet exist and you can search every fecking information.

 

[Raoul]

So it's all palestinians? One side is reasonable and willing to negotiate while the palestinians aren't?

Neither side are interested in negotiating, which is compounded by the fact that Palestinians are represented by two competing factions, neither of which speak for them as a whole.

 

[JPRouve]

Neither side are interested in negotiating, which is compounded by the fact that Palestinians are represented by two competing factions, neither of which speak for them as a whole.

I know that, I'm not the one you should tell that.

 

[That_Bloke]

the issue is that they voted in Hamas. They hate Israel and don't want peace. They only want Israel eradicated and the Jews to leave "their" land.

their Arab neighbours don't really care about them either.

the IDF will likely turn Gaza to rubble. There won't be any winner

I have neither the time nor the patience to engage with people butting in a discussion with horseshit like this.

You're on ignore, mate.