Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

The 6.500 - 7.000 numbers given by Hamas for how many Palestinians have been killed, is all civilians or include combatants? Do Israel give out much, or any information on what they are targeting?
 
This has knocked me for six today. https://archive.ph/2021.05.10-035552/https://www.nybooks.com/articles/1991/07/18/on-gaza-beach/

Read it a few times now.

Because what is happening here around you is not some kind of necessary counterespionage, limited and precise. What is happening here is that an entire population of our reservists—bank clerks, insurance agents, electronics engineers, technicians, retailers, students—carries out the task of imprisoning another entire population, theirs—tile layers, plasterers, lab workers, journalists, clergy, students. This is something without parallel in any part of the world today that is thought to be decent. And you are a partner to it. You comply.

And now, as the screams grow weaker, as they change to a kind of sobbing, wailing, you know that from this moment on nothing will ever again be as it was. Because a person who has heard the screams of another person being tortured is already a different person. Whether he does anything about it or not, a person who has heard the screams of another person being tortured incurs an obligation.

You look around and cannot believe it. Indeed most people feel a shock when they arrive here, when they see people closed up in pens. Most are shaken when they first hear the screaming. Yet only one out of sixty of us refuse to do guard duty in the interrogation section. Only four or five look troubled. Most of the rest get accustomed to it very quickly. After a day or two here it already seems quite natural to see people enclosed behind barbed wire. The interrogation section is part of the routine. As if this were the way of the world.

And these people, your friends, ordinary Israelis, who sit in the canteen in front of the TV with you to watch a repeat screening of Gandhi, or thirty-something, or LA Law—these good people who are solid citizens of a consumer-oriented, technological democracy—undergo here, without the slightest difficulty, the silent metamorphosis that is required of them.
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The Palestinians in Gaza that have been killed. Published.
 
e.cantona said:
The 6.500 - 7.000 numbers given by Hamas for how many Palestinians have been killed, is all civilians or include combatants? Do Israel give out much, or any information on what they are targeting?
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Israel named one of the killed today - I think they've named, in total, 3 of their kills. Could be much higher, but haven't seen it on twitter or the Guardian feed if that's the case.
 
marktan said:
2600 children. I'd assume around 2000 women, so the vast majority are civilians.

I mean there's no way Israel has information as to where specific Hamas members are on a given day, so they're just indiscriminately bombing places to dust.

They said killed '1500' Hamas fighters that entered Israel but no includes those figures in the Gaza dead. True death toll is higher as many are under rubble.
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berbatrick said:
Israel named one of the killed today - I think they've named, in total, 3 of their kills. Could be much higher, but haven't seen it on twitter or the Guardian feed if that's the case.
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Can't find much on it. Guess there ain't
 
Raoul said:
The obvious difference being that the Middle East is comprised of autocratic states ranging from absolute monarchies to theocracies to authoritarian dictatorships, where the people don't have the luxury of driving their respective national policies through voting. People in North America and Europe clearly can vote for whoever they want to represent them, and yet support for Israel continues to remain strong among democracies.
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Is Israel a democracy? Dumb question
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
Is Israel a democracy? Dumb question
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Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
I'm being really thick but you can't get elected if you are not Jewish? If that is the case, how is it a democracy?
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It’s a democracy in a very loose sense of the word. Netanyuhu has been PM since 2009 barring 1.5 years. That wouldn’t happen in any real Western democracy where you’re allowed at most 2 terms. The other thing is - he’s still has charges of corruption, bribery and a few things against him (before he came PM this recent time). He wouldn’t be allowed to stand in any real Western democracy.
 
The Corinthian said:
It’s a democracy in a very loose sense of the word. Netanyuhu has been PM since 2009 barring 1.5 years. That wouldn’t happen in any real Western democracy where you’re allowed at most 2 terms. The other thing is - he’s still has charges of corruption, bribery and a few things against him (before he came PM this recent time). He wouldn’t be allowed to stand in any real Western democracy.
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He could technically stand in a democracy like the UK, but Sunak couldn't stand in Israel? Is that right?
 
Giggsyking said:
Netanyahu has been in power since the beginning of time, it is a flawed democracy.
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We're also ignoring the fact it's an apartheid state, where Arab Israelis are second class citizens, and native Palestinians are essentially boarded up in the occupied west bank, being told where they can and can work, walk or socialise. Real beacon of democracy that is.
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
I'm being really thick but you can't get elected if you are not Jewish? If that is the case, how is it a democracy? That's a theocracy.
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Arabs can and do get elected.

A theocracy is a religious state, run by religious elites. Closest contemporary example would be Iran. Israel is probably better understood as an ethnocracy or ethnic democracy, whereby the political system can accommodate diversity while systematically working to secure the dominance of one particular ethnic group. It's not a perfect way to understand it, as describing Jews as an ethnicity carries its own issues, but it captures what the state is about quite well.
 
Kaos said:
We're also ignoring the fact it's an apartheid state, where Arab Israelis are second class citizens, and native Palestinians are essentially boarded up in the occupied west bank, being told where they can and can work, walk or socialise. Real beacon of democracy that is.
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I would call the Iraqi democracy (if we want to call it a "democracy") more closer to real democracies than the israeli "democracy".
 
The Corinthian said:
It’s a democracy in a very loose sense of the word. Netanyuhu has been PM since 2009 barring 1.5 years. That wouldn’t happen in any real Western democracy where you’re allowed at most 2 terms. The other thing is - he’s still has charges of corruption, bribery and a few things against him (before he came PM this recent time). He wouldn’t be allowed to stand in any real Western democracy.
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Two term rule isn't really a thing for prime ministers in most eu countries as far as im aware.
 
The Corinthian said:
It’s a democracy in a very loose sense of the word. Netanyuhu has been PM since 2009 barring 1.5 years. That wouldn’t happen in any real Western democracy where you’re allowed at most 2 terms. The other thing is - he’s still has charges of corruption, bribery and a few things against him (before he came PM this recent time). He wouldn’t be allowed to stand in any real Western democracy.
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Ignorant post. It's inaccurate.
 
The Corinthian said:
It’s a democracy in a very loose sense of the word. Netanyuhu has been PM since 2009 barring 1.5 years. That wouldn’t happen in any real Western democracy where you’re allowed at most 2 terms. The other thing is - he’s still has charges of corruption, bribery and a few things against him (before he came PM this recent time). He wouldn’t be allowed to stand in any real Western democracy.
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Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
He could technically stand in a democracy like the UK, but Sunak couldn't stand in Israel? Is that right?
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Sorry not following you here bud.

Arabs that have Israeli citizenship are allowed in the Knesset but they’d never be PM.
 
Super Hans said:
This is the kind of thing that most Israelis make sure they are ignorant of. And because of that, the conclusions they reach after October 7 are that the state of Israel is blameless for what happened. Absolutely nauseating to read.
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Yeah, it's brutal and I think a lot of people aren't aware
 
The Corinthian said:
It’s a democracy in a very loose sense of the word. Netanyuhu has been PM since 2009 barring 1.5 years. That wouldn’t happen in any real Western democracy where you’re allowed at most 2 terms. The other thing is - he’s still has charges of corruption, bribery and a few things against him (before he came PM this recent time). He wouldn’t be allowed to stand in any real Western democracy.
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Who do you actually consider real Western democracies? I'm genuinely curious.
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
I'm being really thick but you can't get elected if you are not Jewish? If that is the case, how is it a democracy? That's a theocracy.
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It's not.

It's more of an ethnocracy where everything is done to guarantee the dominance of the Jews over any other ethnic group. And it is a democracy.
 
The Corinthian said:
It’s a democracy in a very loose sense of the word. Netanyuhu has been PM since 2009 barring 1.5 years. That wouldn’t happen in any real Western democracy where you’re allowed at most 2 terms. The other thing is - he’s still has charges of corruption, bribery and a few things against him (before he came PM this recent time). He wouldn’t be allowed to stand in any real Western democracy.
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So the UK is still an option for him.
 
The Corinthian said:
It’s a democracy in a very loose sense of the word. Netanyuhu has been PM since 2009 barring 1.5 years. That wouldn’t happen in any real Western democracy where you’re allowed at most 2 terms. The other thing is - he’s still has charges of corruption, bribery and a few things against him (before he came PM this recent time). He wouldn’t be allowed to stand in any real Western democracy.
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I can only assume you don't count the UK had being a "real Western democracy" then?
 
Alex99 said:
I can only assume you don't count the UK had being a "real Western democracy" then?
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3 out of the last 4 PMs have assumed office without a general election.

Edit: but yes we are democratic outside of that.
 
The Corinthian said:
3 out of the last 4 PMs have assumed office without a general election.
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That doesn't preclude the system from being democratic.

Blair won three consecutive elections, same with Thatcher, and didn't Harold Wilson win four from five?
 
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