Its a slippery slope. After 9/11, there wasn't an inquest as to why the US hurt Al-Qaeda's feelings in the years leading up to the attack. It was a pure inflection point where a brand new time line started that would eventually end Al-Qaeda and kill all of its original leadership (except Saif al-Adel). The same thing is about to happen to Hamas since the 10.7 has instilled a raw & existential "its either us or Hamas" mindset into the population.
Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Its a slippery slope. After 9/11, there wasn't an inquest as to why the US hurt Al-Qaeda's feelings in the years leading up to the attack. It was a pure inflection point where a brand new time line started that would eventually end Al-Qaeda and kill all of its original leadership (except Saif al-Adel). The same thing is about to happen to Hamas since the 10.7 has instilled a raw & existential "its either us or Hamas" mindset into the population.
How can anyone defend this?
It is what it is was never going to be peace not while Israel exists in the holy land. Palestinians have had numerous opportunities to create an independent state and they aren't interested, even as recent as 2008 under Olmert who offered to partition Jerusalem. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/ehud-olmert-s-peace-offer
Hell until 1967 the west bank was under Jordan for 30 years, upon which Arafat insisted there wasn't a claim as it was no longer a part of Palestine. Once it was under Israeli hands however it suddenly became disputed land again because of course it did, one of the many reasons i don't blame Israel for the cynicism in dealing with this problem once and for all.
Outstanding phrasing.
Yeah surprised me too. I've heard murmurings of it being down to the wording not being critical enough of Israel. I know the Tunisians abstained because they claimed it drew false equivalence between Israeli and Palestinian civilians.
Of course it was a lie, but that was the lie they sold the country on. That made more of an impact than oil or an assassination plot against Pappy Bush.
By your logic, 7th October was also a reality. You commit genocide, oppress over a 40 year period and the people will react.
Oh damn.
It's the "killed/died" agency dichotomy all over again.
Hamas kills thousands of Israelis? Full agency. They know full well what they are doing and have total control of their actions.
Israel retaliates by killing thousands of Palestinians? A clockwork act of physics. No different than the force of gravity causing objects to fall down to earth. Might as well yell at a cloud for raining on you.
What's ISL state?
Israel I assume
Fair answer. I suppose that from a Palestinian perspective the question would be why any act of theirs is deemed an inflection point, while anything Israel does is part of the norm and not worthy of attention.
Its shorthand for Israel
It wa snever about WMDs. They were lying about them, and they knew they were lying about them.
It was about oil. And many people made billions from it.
None of the peopel who fought in the war of course, not even the ones that came home missing arms or legs. They got nothing.
But people close to bush, they got rich. tony blair, well he had ties to oil companies, and then was myysteriously given millions by oil countries, he still gets 9 million a year from Saudi, after nixing the investigation into their dodgy military deals.
It obviously was. It was a direct consequence of the Israeli policy of mowing the grass, (terrible term) allowing settler terrorism and terrorists into the government, and a lack of engagement in a decade or more. The consequence was reality to both sides.
The miscalculation was the scale of the Hamas terrorism, and the resulting response being proportional to their own “success.”
Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Israel would have prospered just fine in say Alberta or British Columbia (and not minded a “dual citizenship” solution with the natives/themselves at all.) Too late for that now though. Palestinians would probably prosper just fine and peacefully now if you gave them a random island somewhere and hoped that Iran and Russia kept their hands off.
in 1948 the west needed a bastion to counterbalance communism though, and Israel was perfectly positioned geopolitically for the Jews to hold. I’d love @2cents or somebody to weigh in on how much that determined the direction of the early Israeli state as I don’t know so much about it.
The Palestinians have obviously made many mistakes too; they should have accepted the good offer to Arafat. But the past is the past, here we are now. And now is pretty damned hopeless.
Report: Hamas confirms Israeli ground invasion of Gaza
The start of the Israeli ground invasion
The entire point of creating Israel was to install a power base in the middle east.
As Biden himself said in the 80's, it was “the best $3bn investment” the US had made, and that it would have to “invent an Israel to protect US interests in the region” if Israel didn’t exist.
As we have found to our cost in many places, people with nothing to lose, in their own urban space are not easy to shift.
Took near on a year to clear out Mosel.
But...the Soviets were in favor of the creation of an Israeli state?
The lie that was sold was always going to be WMDs, that worked a shit ton better & easier than oil or an assassination attempt. Hell, they had people in the administration believing the WMD ruse, they played it off so well.
Many people in my country didn't believe the con job in real time, but it's not inaccurate to say that we went into Iraq for WMDs. In hindsight & from a 30K perspective, it all looks a little different, but real time it played & played well.
Yes, but the Soviet’s were anti Zionism. We really need somebody else to unpack this for us unless you know a lot about it, because I only know the bare basics.
WMDs, yes, but the Bush administration also sold the lie that Saddam was involved in 9/11.
According to this poll from 2003, 82% of Americans thought it was likely he aided Bin Laden, and 84% thought it was likely he had WMDs.
Longhand, if anything.
I don't know, but I somehow doubt they are using the internet. They probably have sat phones so they can communicate with the outside since there have been hostage negotiations taking place throughout the day despite the Gaza internet and phone system being down.
Stalin assumed the country would be socialist and undermine British influence and control in the Middle East. Basically both sides of the Cold War supported Israel with an expectation they would return the affection.
Internet in the field is common (even vital) through bgan terminals. standard for most western forces and commercials probably available. (which is how you get so many shitposting on twitter) assume that Israel can somewhat track them though, so not sure how it works for hamas
Wow, I completely forgot that was so close. I would have just said 50 to 60%.
I do remember we were pushing the two Abus hard re: Iraq was harboring known terrorists despite both being well past their sell by date & retired in Baghdad in 2001.
Here's an interesting perspective I read on this a few years ago from a conservative Israeli historian - https://mosaicmagazine.com/essay/israel-zionism/2017/11/who-saved-israel-in-1947/
article behind a paywall, can you summarise?
they obviously have a feckload of fuel as their tunnels need a load of ventilation.
Main bits are hundreds of thousands (250K best guess) gallons of gas, massive caches of materiel in their own tunnel network, & hordes of medicine.
Experts estimate enough wares to last three to four months (but this was before the last three weeks).
Ventilation is the key & that’s what IDF is probably targeting (my thought).
Indeed, which will then give Israel more justification for 'defending' themselves in the future by taking more territory.
The mainstream media were bulling for the war too. They knew that it was BS but they reported it anyway. They lost a lot of credibility there.
Most thinking people knew there was no Iraqi connection to 9/11 and that even IF Saddam had WMDs wtf did the US care? They also certainly didn’t care if he gassed his own people like they said they did
Crazy. Wonder if they gave the journos a guided tour to show off. If only there was a mechanism for the Palestinians to give up the locations safely.
I saw this today, didn't post it as it violates my self rule about posting links for propaganda, but wondered if this is a fairly accurate caricature of white América right now. (spoilered)