Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[Anustart89]

"Please temporarily leave the north of Gaza. You can then come back to the rubble that used to be your house after we tell you to relocate to the north again".

 

[africanspur]

All of which was preventable a mere three weeks ago. The Israelis are now operating out of an existential trauma driven by a mindset that they cannot exist as a nation whilst bordered by an organization that exists for the sole purpose of annihilating them. Public opinion in various other countries won’t count for much if the Israelis believe their very existence is on the line.

Right but you're doing it again. Make one random comment (the South is safe) or another (the allowing of 2 weeks for the displacement of people out of the goodness of their hearts is unprecedented) and then when pulled up on it (the South is being bombed/ they've literally bombed the only border crossing that is still functioning/ cut off water/electricity etc) you merely pivot the conversation to talk about the inevitability of it all.

Which is fine if thats the conversation you want to have but don't start it off with false statements.

 

[Raoul]

That's great and thanks for the repeated bot like answers but that isn't what we are talking about. I am disputing that a) Israel are not striking the 'safe' South (they are) and b) that the delay is because the IDF is so concerned with Palestinian loss of life, as opposed to trying to ensure they are ready to fight a war and minimise their own losses.

Which I'm not even criticising in this instance by the way. Yes of course any army is going to want to minimise losses of their own soldiers when conducting an attack. Let's just not make up crap though and pretend the South of the strip is currently safe from bombing or that the delay is anything other than selfish in nature.

You’re making an assumption that the south was supposed to be safe when no such guarantees were made that there would be zero military activity there

 

[Kaos]

This is implicit in any war, particularly in those with a lopsided power differential where the weaker side starts the fighting. All of this could’ve been easily prevented had Hamas not attacked on 10.7 .

Yep, and had Hamas not attacked on 10.7, the siege on Gaza would have been lifted, the Palestinians in the West Bank would be given the same rights as their settler counterparts, and the settlers themselves would pack it in, and go home vowing never to build anymore illegal settlements. Right?

 

[2cents]

I'm struggling to find any other examples of cutting off power, food, medical aid and barely letting any water in, while bombing the living shit of a population that just can't escape.

First example that comes to mind is Hama in 1982. Syrian forces killed around 10,000-20,000 residents of the city after blockading it off for a month, laying waste to the entire old city with air strikes, and sending troops in to root out the Muslim Brotherhood militants who had effectively seized control, along with anyone suspected of aiding them. The operation brought an end to around six years of relatively low-level insurgency, and Syria barely heard a peep from Islamist militants for the next thirty years.

However the scale was considerably smaller than Gaza today.

 

[kps88]

All of this could’ve been easily prevented had Hamas not attacked on 10.7 .

Yeah things were great before that.

 

[africanspur]

You’re making an assumption that the south was supposed to be safe when no such guarantees were made that there would be zero military activity there

I'm not making that assumption. I'm saying that being told to move south, out of 'humanitarian concern' rings hollow when the South is also being bombed. There is nowhere safe for them to go.

 

[Raoul]

This conflict didn’t start on October 7th.

Trouble is, Hamas doesn’t represent all Palestinians, so their actions will be viewed as those of a paramilitary organization (subsidized by Iran no less) and not as a part of the broader Israeli Palestinian issue.

 

[Drizzle]

Genocide is a broader term than just "kill all of them". If the ultimate goal of Israel is to gradually force the Palestinians out of Gaza and the West Bank, then that would be genocide.

That's a fair point. Let's see how this plays out. If it plays out like that then there's an argument for that term. My own view is that they have no appetite to occupy Gaza, despite the ravings of some far right politicians.

 

[The Corinthian]

Trouble is, Hamas doesn’t represent all Palestinians, so their actions will be viewed as those of a paramilitary organization (subsidized by Iran no less) and not as a part of the broader Israeli Palestinian issue.

Hamas is inherently an organisation borne out of Israel’s own brutality and subjugation of the native population. So whilst they don’t represent all Palestinians, Israel only has itself to blame for the antagonism from Hamas over the last 30 years. Referencing Oct 7th again and again doesn’t change that. The UN Sec Gen got it spot on when he said it didn’t happen in a vacuum.

 

[The Corinthian]

Many seem to genuinely think that the IDF is trying to kill as many Gazans as possible. It's obviously not otherwise a million would be dead by now. Surely that's just blindingly obvious.

What they're doing is brutal and bad enough, but the hyperbole and genocide talk is way off.

What a dumb post. They’ve already killed 3,000 children and 2,000 women. Is that all collateral in your eyes?

 

[Raoul]

Hamas is inherently an organisation borne out of Israel’s own brutality and subjugation of the native population. So whilst they don’t represent all Palestinians, Israel only has itself to blame for the antagonism from Hamas over the last 30 years. Referencing Oct 7th again and again doesn’t change that. The UN Sec Gen got it spot on when he said it didn’t happen in a vacuum.

This is partially correct in that it was created to destroy Israel, a reality most Israelis are finally coming around to. They now view this as a matter of existential survival, as in its either Hamas or Israel.

 

[The Corinthian]

This is partially correct in that it was created to destroy Israel, a reality most Israelis are finally coming around to. They now view this as a matter of existential survival, as in its either Hamas or Israel.

If they view it as a matter of existential survival - why are they killing Palestinians in the West Bank (over 60 since Oct 7th I believe), and why are they breaking international law by building illegal settlements there?

I think you know deep down, and I’d encourage you to be intellectually honest with yourself and myself, that this isn’t and hasn’t been solely about Hamas. Israel wants the land for themselves in its entirety.

 

[Raoul]

That's a fair point. Let's see how this plays out. If it plays out like that then there's an argument for that term. My own view is that they have no appetite to occupy Gaza, despite the ravings of some far right politicians.

They will almost certainly have to occupy it in some form for a while or else risk another militant group taking over yet again.

 

[Raoul]

If they view it as a matter of existential survival - why are they killing Palestinians in the West Bank (over 60 since Oct 7th I believe), and why are they breaking international law by building illegal settlements there?

I think you know deep down, and I’d encourage you to be intellectually honest with yourself and myself, that this isn’t and hasn’t been solely about Hamas. Israel wants the land for themselves in its entirety.

I don’t think they want the land for themselves. They do however now realize that pulling out 18 years ago was a calamitous mistake, since it allowed Hamas to set up shop and lead us to where we are in the present.

 

[The Corinthian]

I don’t think they want the land for themselves. They do however now realize that pulling out 18 years ago was a calamitous mistake, since it allowed Hamas to set up shop and lead us to where we are in the present.

So tell me - why are Israelis killing Palestinians in the West Bank?

Why have they been building illegal settlements in the Wedt Bank for decades which is indirect contravention of international law?

 

[Raoul]

So tell me - why are Israelis killing Palestinians in the West Bank?

Why have they been building illegal settlements in the Wedt Bank for decades which is indirect contravention of international law?

Yes, they shouldn’t be doing any of that. That doesn’t however justify Hamas’ attack, especially given they don’t represent Palestinians as a whole, particularly those in the West Bank.

 

[hasanejaz88]

This is implicit in any war, particularly in those with a lopsided power differential where the weaker side initiates the fighting. All of this could’ve been easily prevented had Hamas not attacked on 10.7 .

If only the slaves knew their place and didn't attack us, we wouldn't have massacred them and their family.

 

[The Corinthian]

Yes, they shouldn’t be doing any of that. That doesn’t however justify Hamas’ attack, especially given they don’t represent Palestinians as a whole, particularly those in the West Bank.

I’m not asking if they should or shouldn’t be doing it. I’m asking why are they doing it. In your opinion, what’s the reason for killing Palestinians and building illegal settlements?

 

[That_Bloke]

First example that comes to mind is Hama in 1982. Syrian forces killed around 10,000-20,000 residents of the city after blockading it off for a month, laying waste to the entire old city with air strikes, and sending troops in to root out the Muslim Brotherhood militants who had effectively seized control, along with anyone suspected of aiding them. The operation brought an end to around six years of relatively low-level insurgency, and Syria barely heard a peep from Islamist militants for the next thirty years.

However the scale was considerably smaller than Gaza today.

Thanks for intervening and making me reconsider, once again.

That was under Hafez Al Assad's regime, if my memory serves me right and he wasn't exactly the kind of man who'd care for human rights or rules of engagement.

It still left terrible scars and ultimately blew back, massively, thirty years later. And that's exactly what's going to happen in Gaza or the West bank in 5, 10 or 20 years if nothing changes.

 

[Raoul]

I’m not asking if they should or shouldn’t be doing it. I’m asking why are they doing it. In your opinion, what’s the reason for killing Palestinians and building illegal settlements?

It’s a cynical policy by the Israeli government (allowing it to happen that is) that is probably driven by Netanyahu’s divide and conquer approach to making sure a two state solution never happens. It’s not far off from the other thing he gets routinely criticized for, which is playing the schism between Hamas and Fatah off one another. His presence as PM is one of the main reasons the process has been in reverse for a couple of decades. None of this of course absolves Hamas for behaving like 13th century barbarians three weeks ago.

 

[Roane]

This is partially correct in that it was created to destroy Israel, a reality most Israelis are finally coming around to. They now view this as a matter of existential survival, as in its either Hamas or Israel.

No it wasn't. It was created by Israel to counter the PA and PLO because peace was looking likely.

Let's not beat around the bush, there is enough quotes from IDF military men etc who have confirmed the backing of Hamas from its inception.

 

[Roane]

This is implicit in any war, particularly in those with a lopsided power differential where the weaker side initiates the fighting. All of this could’ve been easily prevented had Hamas not attacked on 10.7 .

This is getting stupid now. Enough people have condemned Hamas actions and still feel Israel is wrong now.

This whole oh but 10.7 is getting pathetic

If Balfour hadn't signed his treaty Hamas wouldn't exist and thousands of Arabs and Jews would be alive

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

The Israelis are now operating out of an existential trauma driven by a mindset that they cannot exist as a nation whilst bordered by an organization that exists for the sole purpose of annihilating them. Public opinion in various other countries won’t count for much if the Israelis believe their very existence is on the line.

This is just random pop psychology. It's not an actual argument or explanation of anything. You know that, right?

 

[That_Bloke]

All of which was preventable a mere three weeks ago. The Israelis are now operating out of an existential trauma driven by a mindset that they cannot exist as a nation whilst bordered by an organization that exists for the sole purpose of annihilating them. Public opinion in various other countries won’t count for much if the Israelis believe their very existence is on the line.

I have a great deal of respect for your contributions in this thread but I'm having a hard time with this constant position of yours tracking back the origins of this conflict to 7/10. It's not, and you know it.

Is Hamas a terrorist islamist organization which (un)declared ultimate goal is the destruction of Israel? Absolutely.

Is massacring and kidnapping civilians in any way justifiable or can be put under the legitimate "armed resistance against the occupation" umbrella (which is a fundamental right by the way)? That's a resounding no from me.

Can Hamas destroy Israel in its current form and shape? Absolutely not. In fact, they survived this long in Gaza because Israel allowed, encouraged and even indirectly financed it. They can hurt them and they showed it on 7/10. But destroy Israel? Yeah, no.

International public opinion will matter in the long run. As fecked up as the world is, it's still 2023. If you claim to be of the "people of light", you can't just go on a rampage without other "people of light" jumping in and tell you to back off. Then later tell you to get your house in order. There are major consequences involving pretty much the entire world if this gets out of hands. You also can't claim to be on the side of civilization and take the moral high ground, when it flies out the window with your daily dealings with a population on a territory you're militarily occupying and colonizing for more than 50 years.

 

[Raoul]

This is getting stupid now. Enough people have condemned Hamas actions and still feel Israel is wrong now.

This whole oh but 10.7 is getting pathetic

If Balfour hadn't signed his treaty Hamas wouldn't exist and thousands of Arabs and Jews would be alive

While commendable, this doesn’t address my previous point. No one disagrees that none of this would be happening if not for what Hamas did. Literally none of the bombing, stoppage of food, water, electricity, basic services, or any other aspect of the Israeli reaction would be taking place today if not for the 10.7 attack. To claim Hamas was simply responding to decades of oppression is simply tantamount to justifying a terrorist attack. It didn’t work post 9/11 and it won’t work now.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

While commendable, this doesn’t address my previous point. No one disagrees that none of this would be happening if not for what Hamas did. Literally none of the bombing, stoppage of food, water, electricity, basic services, or any other aspect of the Israeli reaction would be taking place today if not for the 10.7 attack.

Israel have done most of these things before the 10.7 attack.

 

[NotThatSoph]

I don't know you nor do you know me. We can only judge each other by our posts on here. And forgive me if I wasn't impressed by you calling decent posters here (who may have a different take than you) such as owlo 'cowards'. And you call my post ill-faithed?

Anyway, I thought,hey this chap is extremely upset about the events and the tragic and unnecessary loss of life. Presumably he'll also have been devastated by the brutal massacres on 7th October. I was amazed to find nothing of the sort. And you only started wading in when Israel responded. Strange.

Let's use this logic of yours.

You're this thread's watchdog. However, you'll only bite and snarl at people who criticize Israel, you'll not say a word to anyone else. We've had some pretty horrific comments in this thread, and it seems that you approve of all of them as long as they target Palestinians or Muslims. We can, after all, only judge each other by or posts or what we choose not to post.

 

[calodo2003]

230ish hostages for ~8K prisoners...

 

[Drizzle]

People say Hamas wants to wipe out Israel - but if you really want to know what Israel wants to do, go back to Ben Gurion said.

There have been a million pronouncements on this issue since then, and a million fundamental changes in circumstance, but you're telling me this is the real plan behind everything.

 

[Roane]

While commendable, this doesn’t address my previous point. No one disagrees that none of this would be happening if not for what Hamas did. Literally none of the bombing, stoppage of food, water, electricity, basic services, or any other aspect of the Israeli reaction would be taking place today if not for the 10.7 attack. To claim Hamas was simply responding to decades of oppression is simply tantamount to justifying a terrorist attack. It didn’t work post 9/11 and it won’t work now.

You're inventing things now.

No one said Hamas was simply responding to decades of oppression. They condemned Hamas.

They are now condemning Israel's response. You and 1 or 2 others are justifying the response.

Israel killed children and reporters before 10.7

My Balfour point was to show that we can condemn Balfour and still condemn Hamas. So why is it difficult for likes of you to do the same?

 

[Carolina Red]

I don’t think they want the land for themselves.

They absolutely want the land in the West Bank for themselves. That’s why they keep taking it.

 

[Roane]

There have been a million pronouncements on this issue since then, and a million fundamental changes in circumstance, but you're telling me this is the real plan behind everything.

Some of the changes haven't changed.

Some of the statements have been the same over the years.

Netanyahu still spouts what his dad did. His party still spout statements from 1915 onwards

 

[The Corinthian]

It’s a cynical policy by the Israeli government (allowing it to happen that is) that is probably driven by Netanyahu’s divide and conquer approach to making sure a two state solution never happens. It’s not far off from the other thing he gets routinely criticized for, which is playing the schism between Hamas and Fatah off one another. His presence as PM is one of the main reasons the process has been in reverse for a couple of decades. None of this of course absolves Hamas for behaving like 13th century barbarians three weeks ago.

Again with the crowbarring of Hamas and Oct 7th. I’m asking you about the acts of settlers in the West Bank.

If you think their actions are to prevent a two state solution, then what does that tell you about the Israeli government? Because any delay to resolving the status quo will only result in more and more land in the West Bank being gobbled up by thieving settlers and more and more killings in the WB (and Gaza which seems to happen on an annual basis).

This coupled with the no right of return to Palestinians in the WB means that any Palestinian who would leave out of fear of their safety has no home to come back to and it’s most likely taken by a settler.

So, again, I don’t think you’re being intellectually honest with yourself or myself in this conversation. You will know full well that any delay to 2 state solution discussions will just result in more Palestinians dead and more space in the WB taken by settlers. Do you disagree?

 

[Raoul]

230ish hostages for ~8K prisoners...

Yahya Sinwar has apparently been obsessed with getting Palestinian prisoners out of Israeli prisons, which is probably one of the reasons he orchestrated the attacks.

 

[Roane]

Jamal rayan on twitter saying that a retired army by the name of McGregor has said that American special forces have attempted to rescue hostages taken by Hamas but withdrew due to heavy losses

 

[Drizzle]

Let's use this logic of yours.

You're this thread's watchdog. However, you'll only bite and snarl at people who criticize Israel, you'll not say a word to anyone else. We've had some pretty horrific comments in this thread, and it seems that you approve of all of them as long as they target Palestinians or Muslims. We can, after all, only judge each other by or posts or what we choose not to post.

Ah yes, you accused me of policing this thread, but here you are doing the very same. Welcome.

If you're saying that I agree with some things and not with others, then guilty as charged I guess. My lens is different to some others, no apologies there.

If you're accusing just me of 'biting and snarling', then I'd say you're the one who is picking and choosing which side to take and which horrific comments to ignore, because there have been plenty of them.

 

[The Corinthian]

Jamal rayan on twitter saying that a retired army by the name of McGregor has said that American special forces have attempted to rescue hostages taken by Hamas but withdrew due to heavy losses

American special forces? So the US has boots on the ground?

 

[RedTiger]

This is all the fault of the Romans for kicking jews out of the holy land and secondly umar ibn Khattab shares blame for allowing the Jews back into the holy land.

 

[Revan]

I mean does Israel deserve credit for 'only' killing 7000 people? Only if you have no idea what's going on.

Their goal is clearly to lay waste to the northern half of Gaza, and then have their army go in and occupy it. Wadi Gaza will be a nice natural barrier between the two sides. But their ultimate aim is to make life so unlivable in the south (hence the blockade, the continued bombings) that the only option becomes for the Gazans to be moved into the Sinai. It won't happen immediately, but you've heard enough rumblings from various Israeli politicians to know it's what they want.

If Israel had killed 20,000 Gazans right off the bat you think they'd be allowed to continue with their current plan? You think they really give one crap about the actual life of a Palestinian? No, they need to minimise the losses to serve their own aims.

Sisi is playing hardball in public but ultimately he is a US puppet, Israel has the ear of the US and the US can easily behind the scenes force Sisi to do what they want, be that via financial threats (why else has Egypt gotten so much financial aid from the US) or military. Is it any surprise to anyone that Morsi, who wanted to open up the southern border for Gaza, was deposed so quickly? Mubarak and Sisi were both incredibly happy to keep the Rafah crossing closed both during Cast lead in 2009 and now during this month. Why? Anyone with half a brain knows why. They've been told to do so.

It's why it baffles me so many take the Israeli public stated aim of 'wiping out Hamas' at face value - anyone with more than one actual functioning brain cell knows that it's Impossible. You can't identify all the ones that aren't fighting, and you can't stop new ones from the relatives of all the dead from joining. Israeli, US politicians know this, and yet so many of the public lap it up. Why? Because most people are morons who lack critical thinking skills or know but are intentionally being obtuse. People say Hamas wants to wipe out Israel - but if you really want to know what Israel wants to do, go back to Ben Gurion said.

In a letter to his son in October 1937, Ben-Gurion explained that partition would be a first step to "possession of the land as a whole". The same sentiment, that acceptance of partition was a temporary measure beyond which the Palestine would be "redeemed . . in its entirety," was recorded by Ben-Gurion on other occasions, such as at a meeting of the Jewish Agency executive in June 1938, as well as by Chaim Weizmann.

David Ben-Gurion, Israel’s first prime minister, said about Gaza before the 1956 Suez campaign: “If I believed in miracles, I’d wish for it to be swallowed up by the sea.”

“There is no solution. We want Palestine to be ours as a nation. The Arabs want it to be theirs — as a nation. I don’t know what Arab would agree to Palestine belonging to the Jews".

If the entire Israel's plan is to force Gazas to leave to Egypt, how does Sisi blocking them help the Israel?