Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

I don't agree with what Israel is doing.
But of course understand why they need to get rid of Hamas.

Hamas is literally hiding behind its citizens and bunkered underneath the hospital.

We have senses. We've read the reports of journalists and their families killed, people killed while hiding in churches, hospitals, schools, UN employees, thousands of children. We've seen the photos of entire apartment blocks turned to rubble. The reports on the use of white phosphorus. We've read and heard the multiple quotes by Israeli officials blaming the citizens of Gaza and holding them responsible for the attacks, saying the emphasis is on damage and not accuracy.

It is simply not possible for a reasonable person to look at what has happened and conclude that Israel was "just trying to get at Hamas."
 
well no one has answered my question about what Israel should have done after 7/10.

I don't know the answer.

That's because it can't be answered without being unrealistic. No Israeli response other than going after Hamas would've been acceptable to the Israeli population. Even many left wing Jews who hate Netanyahu want Hamas gone.
 
That's because it can't be answered without being unrealistic. No Israeli response other than going after Hamas would've been acceptable to the Israeli population. Even many left wing Jews who hate Netanyahu want Hamas gone.
https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-767880

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...leaders-pin-blame-on-dysfunctional-government

https://newrepublic.com/post/176200/majority-israelis-think-netanyahu-resign

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/10/18/israeli-anger-at-netanyahu-erupts-at-hospital-bedsides.html
 
Hamas won't stop until Israel is destroyed.

You can't make arguments about 'realism' and then post stuff like this. Hamas does not have the capacity to destroy Israel in any way, shape, or form. It's not an actual consideration.

Stop talking about Hamas like it's COBRA from GI Joe.
 
well no one has answered my question about what Israel should have done after 7/10.

I don't know the answer.

I don't condone this IDF response.But as I said, they have to act. They cannot just accept Hamas firing rockets at them and terrorising civilians. Hamas won't stop until Israel is destroyed. You cannot negotiate with a party that does not recognise your right to exist.

A humanitarian corridor for Women, Children, and Vulnerable people out of Gaza into some UN back refugee camp in Egypt. Get as many hostages out, then turn Gaza to dust.

Then work collaboratively with UAE, Saudi, Egypt to rebuild Gaza as the new state of Palestine.Build proper homes, infrastructure , democratic structures for the refugees who left.

id pull all settlers out of West Bank. Fence it off as Palestine. Major infrastructure project to build tunnel linking Gaza to West Bank.
You do what any advanced military power would do. Use special forces to mount rescue operations for hostages, use your extensive intelligence network to target Hamas in a surgical and precise manner. They've done it in the past all over the globe, they're definitely capable of doing it on their doorstep. What you don't do is carpet bomb a city to the ground killing thousands of women and children, and creating an unprecedented humanitarian crisis, and inevitably creating the next generation of Palestinians with nothing to lose.

And beyond that you'd look at ways to prevent a desperate, and oppressed population of people from slipping to the same radicalisation cycle that has led to this cycle of violence. You cease building illegal settlements and start treating settlers like the terrorists they are (which you have hinted at to your credit). You treat the people of Gaza as human beings instead of cutting off their water and electricity, and turning it into a giant open air prison.

And most pressingly you come to the table with PA and start mapping out a genuine roadmap to peace along the 67 agreements, in line with the sentiments of the international community. Give the Palestinians the West Bank and East Jerusalem, declare your borders, and then work towards lasting peace from that foundation. That is the only way the region has any hope for lasting peace.

As for your suggested solution - I don't know where to begin with that. The fact you've specified only women and children, (so I assume you consider the Palestinian men to be fair collateral while Israel turns Gaza into dust), or the fact you think its perfectly reasonable to destroy an entire city, notably people's homes, livelihoods, and the infrastructure within it, only to magically rebuild it like its a sim video game, while these millions of refugee just lie in stasis in Egypt somewhere. Oh and its of course ignoring the issue of Palestinians have no right of return, meaning its feasible they won't even be allowed back into Gaza, or whats left of it.
 
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That's because it can't be answered without being unrealistic. No Israeli response other than going after Hamas would've been acceptable to the Israeli population. Even many left wing Jews who hate Netanyahu want Hamas gone.
You can go after Hamas without destroying an entire city and killing thousands of people in the process. Not everything needs to be by the US' playbook when it comes to tackling terror.
 
You can go after Hamas without destroying an entire city and killing thousands of people in the process. Not everything needs to be by the US' playbook when it comes to tackling terror.

What would be your approach in successfully going after Hamas while simultaneously keeping all civilians safe ?
 
You can go after Hamas without destroying an entire city and killing thousands of people in the process. Not everything needs to be by the US' playbook when it comes to tackling terror.

Are you suggesting Israeli soldiers should go raw into gaza tunnels? If so, that sounds like extremely dumb and naive warfare.
 
I've given my take above.

I read that. Would special forces work to completely remove Hamas (which is the Israeli goal here) ?

Also, the 67 border thing is obviously a non-starter at this point. The Palestinian side are fractured and unable to speak with a unified voice and the Israelis are obviously not planning on giving back any more land they gained by other countries invading them, particularly only weeks after the worst attack on them since the holocaust.
 
They've been bombing Gaza for almost two decades. The tunnels haven't stopped, so no I don't think its working.

These were random retaliatory bombings following rocket attacks into Israel, which always subsided back into the previous status quo. Their current stated goal now is actually getting rid of Hamas in the Gaza strip, which would be hard to do without actually going into Gaza.
 
I read that. Would special forces work to completely remove Hamas (which is the Israeli goal here) ?

Also, the 67 border thing is obviously a non-starter at this point. The Palestinian side are fractured and unable to speak with a unified voice and the Israelis are obviously not planning on giving back any more land they gained by other countries invading them, particularly only weeks after the worst attack on them since the holocaust.
Removing Hamas in its entirety isn't possible. The Israeli proposed strategy (publicly at least) appears to involve levelling Gaza city, hoping that Hamas make up a chunk of the thousands they've killed. Truthfully we know that doesn't work, and has proven not to work when factoring in the lessons from the ill-fated war on terror since 9/11. Even if their bombing campaign ends up neutralising scores of their organisation, where do you think the fathers and sons who've lost everything will flock to? If not Hamas it'll be something else in its stead. That's why if you take their strategy at face value, its doomed to fail, and only plays into Hamas' hands, who will no doubt have no shortage of desperate Palestinians flocking to them.

The goal should be to secure the hostages, cripple the Hamas organisational hierarchy, and work towards building some goodwill with the Palestinians. You're not going to achieve any of that with turning Gaza into a giant graveyard for the innocent.

As for the 67 issue - well Israel will need to decide if it wants to catch up with the international consensus or continue operating as a quasi-colonial aggressor, which only prolongs any prospect for peace and stability.
 
These were random retaliatory bombings following rocket attacks into Israel, which always subsided back into the previous status quo. Their current stated goal now is actually getting rid of Hamas in the Gaza strip, which would be hard to do without actually going into Gaza.
It doesn't actually work as a strategy though. Unless you consider destroying an entire city and killing a bulk of its inhabitants as palatable collateral. In which case you're blurring the moral integrity of Israel and the enemy they're intending to neutralise.
 
So if a strategy has failed in the past, the solution is just to double down on it until it works? What was that definition of insanity again?

I don't know shit about any of that. All i know is they said they want hamas gone, and sending them into gaza without reducing the threat to their soldiers as much as possible beforehand would be stupid.
 
I don't know shit about any of that. All i know is they said they want hamas gone, and sending them into gaza without reducing the threat to their soldiers as much as possible beforehand would be stupid.
Its impossible to get rid of Hamas without essentially wiping out Gaza. If you feel that's the acceptable price to pay, then I can't debate with you any further on this.

I'd be asking why Netanyahu's government were so keen to bolster Hamas in the past if the intention is sincerely to 'wipe them out'.
 
Its impossible to get rid of Hamas without essentially wiping out Gaza. If you feel that's the acceptable price to pay, then I can't debate with you any further on this.

I'd be asking why Netanyahu's government were so keen to bolster Hamas in the past if the intention is sincerely to 'wipe them out'.

I have never said anything about whats acceptable, and i never supported bombings of gaza or anything like it, i support peace.
 
Its impossible to get rid of Hamas without essentially wiping out Gaza. If you feel that's the acceptable price to pay, then I can't debate with you any further on this.

I'd be asking why Netanyahu's government were so keen to bolster Hamas in the past if the intention is sincerely to 'wipe them out'.
Could probably use this exact same template right after 911, swapping in US govt and Al Qaeda.

Not sure about the first part though. Hamas can be gotten rid of, unless you think everyone there is Hamas.
 
Could probably use this exact same template right after 911, swapping in US govt and Al Qaeda.

Not sure about the first part though. Hamas can be gotten rid of, unless you think everyone there is Hamas.

Agreed. The Hamas can't be gotten rid of "because they're not a group but rather a mindset/ideal" narrative is incorrect. They are first and foremost an organization just like Al-Qaeda and ISIS were. They have a piece of land they control, they have leaders on that land as well as well as in Qatar and Lebanon, and their weapons are funded and supplied by Iran (beyond what they themselves produce on the strip). They can therefore be dismantled and ejected in Gaza.
 
Could probably use this exact same template right after 911, swapping in US govt and Al Qaeda.

Not sure about the first part though. Hamas can be gotten rid of, unless you think everyone there is Hamas.
Agreed. The Hamas can't be gotten rid of "because they're not a group but rather a mindset/ideal" narrative is incorrect. They are first and foremost an organization just like Al-Qaeda and ISIS were. They have a piece of land they control, they have leaders on that land as well as well as in Qatar and Lebanon, and their weapons are funded and supplied by Iran (beyond what they themselves produce on the strip). They can therefore be dismantled and ejected in Gaza.
Very well. Now explain how Israel's current strategy of heavily bombing Gaza is a surefire strategy to achieve that goal?

Hamas aren't comparable to Al-Qaeda and ISIS either. The latter two were global organisations that required the collective efforts of several nations to combat, nor have they been destroyed either.
 
Very well. Now explain how Israel's current strategy of heavily bombing Gaza is a surefire strategy to achieve that goal?

The ability to go into Gaza and control the territory would be a much better way to get Hamas leaders given that they are physically below ground. Otherwise there's no way of getting them. Do you disagree ?

Hamas aren't comparable to Al-Qaeda and ISIS either. The latter two were global organisations that required the collective efforts of several nations to combat, nor have they been destroyed either.

They've been marginalized into irrelevance, and since they were far more geographically scattered than Hamas, it would seem far less complicated to do the same to the latter given that a vast majority of their fighters are trapped in a very small piece of land.
 
The south has been getting sporadically bombed as well (probably to hit tunnels), but I believe a vast majority of the bombing has been in the north. Giving citizens a two week warning before going in is pretty unprecedented in modern times. I'm struggling to find any other examples where this has happened in recent years.

Such a good guys, blessed their heart. Nice warnings 3000 kids here 2000 women there. Warnings. Unprecedented
 
The ability to go into Gaza and control the territory would be a much better way to get Hamas leaders given that they are physically below ground. Otherwise there's no way of getting them. Do you disagree ?



They've been marginalized into irrelevance, and since they were far more geographically scattered than Hamas, it would seem far less complicated to do the same to the latter given that a vast majority of their fighters are trapped in a very small piece of land.
I did suggest that, hence the use of special forces going in and carrying out surgical, strategic objectives. My issue (and indeed the issue of many others) was how and why they had decided to bomb Gaza with such unrelenting and indiscriminate fervour, unapologetically killing 7000 people in the process, with absolutely no remorse nor condemnation. Thats not a op, thats a cold-blooded massacre.

And you're keen to keep drawing parallels with Hamas and the likes of ISIS, but last I checked the US and Iraqi armed forces didn't opt to simply bomb Mosul to the ground, but rather it involved security forces going door to door, and securing sector by sector, protecting civilians and ensuring they were given the appropriate aid and refuge. That's hardly the play here and we can all see it.
 
This sort of rhetoric, these sorts of comparisons are childish.

They are not. And it is ironical that the ones that are perpetrating it are the ones that suffered the most
 
Agreed. The Hamas can't be gotten rid of "because they're not a group but rather a mindset/ideal" narrative is incorrect. They are first and foremost an organization just like Al-Qaeda and ISIS were. They have a piece of land they control, they have leaders on that land as well as well as in Qatar and Lebanon, and their weapons are funded and supplied by Iran (beyond what they themselves produce on the strip). They can therefore be dismantled and ejected in Gaza.
They are not.

No matter what your quite simplistic view on that organization is, Hamas still has a nationalistic and independence related cause rooted to their very existence. They are inbedded in a way Al Qaeda and ISIS never were.

Their "resistance" has been limited to what they consider as their "legitimate territory". They never exported violence to other countries, they don't have the same delusional objectives as the aforementioned terrorist organizations (Hamas has its own delusional one, but it's not quite the same). The fact that they used ISIS methods on 7/10 doesn't mean that they are ISIS, or Al Qaeda for that matter.

Now just to be clear, for umptieth time, I'm not condoning their acts in any way. They're murderous, fanatic assholes, not interested in the slightest in a two state solution and a blight for the Palestinians. They've proven it time and again. I find them utterly repulsive and don't believe that their ultimate goal is particularly appealing for anyone with a lick of sense.

However, if you think that they're akin to the terrorist organizations you've mentioned and that the problem can be solved the same way, you're making a colossal error of judgement.
 
We really don't need that type of nonsense. You can criticize and even heavily criticize Israel without making inflammatory references to the Holocaust.

Calling palestinian human animals, dehumanizing them like jews were. Killing them and stealing their houses, like killing the jews and stealing their houses, putting them in a ghetto like gazza where they control electricity, food and water. Marking their car plates like marking jews, wanting the anihilation of them, like they wanted the same for jews.

There are many extrapolations and netamyahu doesnt wear a mustache. It is indeed silly compare both as exactly the same, like comparing mussolini facism to nowadays fascism. They are different but akin because we are in different times with different (final) solutions and no one would be so stupid to repeat exactly the same modus operandi because they would called out. But the comparisons are warranted in several points
 
They are not.

No matter what your quite simplistic view on that organization is, Hamas still has a nationalistic and independence related cause rooted to their very existence. They are inbedded in a way Al Qaeda and ISIS never were. They also never behaved the same way ISIS did against their own "populations".

Their "resistance" has been limited to what they consider as their "legitimate territory". They never exported violence to other countries, they don't have the same delusional objectives as the aforementioned terrorist organizations (Hamas has its own delusional one, but it's not quite the same). The fact that they used ISIS methods on 7/10 doesn't mean that they are ISIS, or Al Qaeda for that matter.

Now just to be clear, for umptieth time, I'm not condoning their acts in any way. They're murderous, fanatic assholes, not interested in the slightest in a two state solution and a blight for the Palestinians. They've proven it time and again. I find them utterly repulsive and don't believe that their ultimate goal is particularly appealing for anyone with a lick of sense.

However, if you think that they're akin to the terrorist organizations you've mentioned and that the problem can be solved the same way, you're making a colossal error of judgement.

That's not correct. Hamas are not the sole arbiters of Palestinian nationalism or statehood. They didn't exist until a certain point in the late 80s and are not guaranteed to exist indefinitely. They are first and foremost an organization with a leadership structure who control a small piece of land. If that leadership structure are killed and their ability to control Gaza taken away, then they will effectively not exist. The guys in Qatar may continue living there, but the Mossad will take care of them at some point in the future as well.
 
I keep seeing and hearing calls for senior politicians from all sides to call for a ceasefire, do Hamas actually want a ceasefire because if not these calls are pretty hollow, because any ceasefire would need both sides to abide by it

They want to swap about 220 Israeli hostages for 6630 Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails. That of course wouldn't guarantee a ceasefire since the Israelis are not going to stop until Hamas are completely gone.

More in this thread

 
That's not correct. Hamas are not the sole arbiters of Palestinian nationalism or statehood. They didn't exist until a certain point in the late 80s and are not guaranteed to exist indefinitely. They are first and foremost an organization with a leadership structure who control a small piece of land. If that leadership structure are killed and their ability to control Gaza taken away, then they will effectively not exist. The guys in Qatar may continue living there, but the Mossad will take care of them at some point in the future as well.
Yes, all of what you wrote up to that point is true. But as long that there's no search for a political solution to this issue, you're condemned to repeat the mistakes of the past and you'll never solve it.

From your posts on the matter, I take that you are a believer in the military solution, including the extra-judiciary executions (please, correct me if I am wrong). There's a litany of powerful countries that militarily won, but ultimately lost this kind of wars because they bet on the very solution you're advocating for. History will tell you that you're dead wrong unless you take it upon you to literally eradicate the rebelling populations.

Hamas is an ugly symptom, but not the cause of the disease.

"Just because we have the best hammer doesn't mean that every problem is a nail."

- Barack Obama.
 
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I did suggest that, hence the use of special forces going in and carrying out surgical, strategic objectives. My issue (and indeed the issue of many others) was how and why they had decided to bomb Gaza with such unrelenting and indiscriminate fervour, unapologetically killing 7000 people in the process, with absolutely no remorse nor condemnation. Thats not a op, thats a cold-blooded massacre.

And you're keen to keep drawing parallels with Hamas and the likes of ISIS, but last I checked the US and Iraqi armed forces didn't opt to simply bomb Mosul to the ground, but rather it involved security forces going door to door, and securing sector by sector, protecting civilians and ensuring they were given the appropriate aid and refuge. That's hardly the play here and we can all see it.
if it is a regional group, then they will have to annex the region.
Provocation, existential threat, or perhaps from the point of view of some Israeli, a perfect excuse.
It would also make no sense to go in, take down Hamas and leave, risking the problem repeating itself.
Total occupation and parasitization of the land or government managed by various actors on the region and parasitization of the land a posteriori with more subtlety, and from there managing threats from a different type of border.
I don't think they have declared war after 50 years to carry out a "special military operation" and if they bomb, and using an unpleasant term repeated these days, it is to soften the ground, because obviously they are not going to send their own army to the slaughterhouse.
Clinical military operations and special forces seem like something that would be done against a command, not against thousands of combatants who, from what I understand, have their headquarters under a hospital.
Yes, all of what you wrote up to that point is true. But as long that there's no search for a political solution to this issue, you're condemned to repeat the mistakes of the past and you'll never solve the issue.

From your posts on the matter, I take that you are a believer in the military solution, including the extra-judiciary executions (please, correct me if I am wrong). There's a litany of powerful countries that militarily won, but ultimately lost this kind of wars because they bet on the very solution you're advocating for. History will tell you that you're dead wrong unless you take it upon you to literally eradicate the rebelling populations.

Hamas is an ugly symptom, but not the cause of the disease.

"Just because we have the best hammer doesn't mean that every problem is a nail."

- Barack Obama.
They lost them because the military presence was like a group of watchtowers in the middle of the immensity, thousands of kilometers from their capital. The United States (if that's what you mean) did not intend to send settlers to Kabul and occupy the land, Israel does intend to, now or in 20 years
 
I don't know shit about any of that. All i know is they said they want hamas gone, and sending them into gaza without reducing the threat to their soldiers as much as possible beforehand would be stupid.
What exactly is Israel’s end goal here then? Eliminate Hamas, level Gaza and that’s it?

Where do you think the million odd survivors will go? Under Israeli governance or levelled with Gaza?