Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[E-mal]

Israel attacks turkey.

Turkey triggers article 5.

?

Even without NATO Israel military power will not attempt to fight Turkey. The world has changed since 1973 and fighting Hezbollah and a few gangs in Gaza and West bank is different from fighting a real country

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

It's not whataboutery

This is your post from October 11th:

I just hope Israel threatens a humanitarian catastrophe only to put pressure on Hamas to release the hostages, maybe even force the Palestinians themselves to turn on Hamas. I don't believe that even Netanyahu is ready to go through with a genocide. He would lose all international support and we'd probably see a Dresden like bombing already if it was the case.

It is now October 29th. Israel did not merely threaten a humanitarian catastrophe: they created one. They have dropped thousands of bombs on Gaza and killed over 6000 Palestinians. And the Israeli ambassador to the UK showed up on TV to compare Gaza to Dresden as justification for what they were about to do.

Have you addressed any of this? Not that I can see (looked through pages 300 to 474). Have you stopped supporting Israel? Apparently not.

Instead you have asked "what about the other Arab countries."

That is, quite literally, "whataboutery."

 

[Badunk]

That part is clear to me, but it seems not so much to many of the Palestinian supporters. I've never seen a muslim demonstration to ask Arab countries to take the Gaza population in and save them.
You want to end their suffering in the open air prison and you have 2 options. Fight against a military far superior enemy who is raining bombs on you or just take them people in, so they don't have to suffer Israelian bombs anymore. What is the easier and faster way to end the crisis and suffering for 2 million people?
That would require the love for Palestinians to be greater than the hatred of Israel of course and somehow, the majority doesn't see the hypocrisy in that. If you want to save civilians, there are better, faster and realistic ways. If you just hate Israel and don't want them to win, okay it's your right, but then don't hide behind the Palestinians suffering and admit the real reason.



It's not whataboutery, I answered to the question where would the 2 million people go (if their neighbours would actually be concered about them, and not just use them to ignite Israeli hatred.)

Why is it someone else's responsibility when it's Israel doing the bombing? The answer is to get Israel to stop.

 

[Gehrman]

Why is it someone else's responsibility when it's Israel doing the bombing? The answer is to get Israel to stop.

You could literally use that line of thought for any country not taking in refugees or trying to limit the number to as few as possible.

 

[Badunk]

You could literally use that line of thought for any country not taking in refugees or trying to limit the number to as few as possible.

Fair point.

There is also the fact that, when Palestinians leave, they're not allowed back. So it's not as simple as other Arab states need to take them in.

 

[E-mal]

Israel is a rogue terrorist country similar to Hamas, the only difference is the bias to which the west favours it. I have said it many times, ''if Hamas are considered terrorists, so should Israel and If Israel is seen to have a legitimate right to violence, it is my feeling that Hamas has the same Legitimacy''

I might not agree with the methods employed by Hamas nor their chatter to Israel as a state but they are a nationalistic group with legitimacy and we cannot deny that.

Anyone who thinks Israel is not the original sinner in this conflict have their head buried in the sand.

 

[RedDevilQuebecois]

That part is clear to me, but it seems not so much to many of the Palestinian supporters. I've never seen a muslim demonstration to ask Arab countries to take the Gaza population in and save them.
You want to end their suffering in the open air prison and you have 2 options. Fight against a military far superior enemy who is raining bombs on you or just take them people in, so they don't have to suffer Israelian bombs anymore. What is the easier and faster way to end the crisis and suffering for 2 million people?
That would require the love for Palestinians to be greater than the hatred of Israel of course and somehow, the majority doesn't see the hypocrisy in that. If you want to save civilians, there are better, faster and realistic ways. If you just hate Israel and don't want them to win, okay it's your right, but then don't hide behind the Palestinians suffering and admit the real reason.

You could literally use that line of thought for any country not taking in refugees or trying to limit the number to as few as possible.

When I see the stark contrast about how much noise Arab countries and Turkey make about Palestinians in Gaza while it's total silence about what is happening to Uyghurs in Xinjiang (or East Turkestan for the locals), it already speaks a lot of volumes. Now that no Arab country (not even Saudi Arabia, not even Qatar, not even the UAE - all rich countries) will lift a single finger to take care of a single Gazan refugee right now, it only confirms that hypocrisy I have seen unfolding for a number of years now, especially when Europe and North America made several efforts to receive Ukrainian refugees over the last 20 months in comparison.

 

[VorZakone]

 

[JPRouve]

That part is clear to me, but it seems not so much to many of the Palestinian supporters. I've never seen a muslim demonstration to ask Arab countries to take the Gaza population in and save them.
You want to end their suffering in the open air prison and you have 2 options. Fight against a military far superior enemy who is raining bombs on you or just take them people in, so they don't have to suffer Israelian bombs anymore. What is the easier and faster way to end the crisis and suffering for 2 million people?
That would require the love for Palestinians to be greater than the hatred of Israel of course and somehow, the majority doesn't see the hypocrisy in that. If you want to save civilians, there are better, faster and realistic ways. If you just hate Israel and don't want them to win, okay it's your right, but then don't hide behind the Palestinians suffering and admit the real reason.



It's not whataboutery, I answered to the question where would the 2 million people go (if their neighbours would actually be concered about them, and not just use them to ignite Israeli hatred.)

This is only an option if you don't care about palestinians and their right to remain on their land. What you are suggesting is that other countries should support and implement the deportation of people to a foreign land while the oppressor comfortably gains more land without consequences.

 

[Gehrman]

Fair point.

There is also the fact that, when Palestinians leave, they're not allowed back. So it's not as simple as other Arab states need to take them in.

True but similar complexities are found with refugees from other conflicts especially if there is ethnic cleansing involved. Quite often in some countries they dont want to return because their host country provides them with a better safety and quality of life. I get what you mean though, the thought of having no choice to return is hard to stomach for a population who are naturally nationalist and probably feels that the conflict has a religious element to it so they must persevere in Jihad.

Just a brief edit: I think they should at least have a choice to flee even knowing they may never have the choice to return.

 

[HTG]

In a vaccum you have a point but if you think about it a bit deeper there is a massive issue with the idea of taking in all palestinians-gazans that are fleeing. By doing that in mass while not heavily sanctioning Israel you incentivize isreaeli extremists, the worse they act the quicker they reach their goal which is to take every piece of land. The Palestinians are in a dire situation because they are the only ones expected to pay a price.

I get what you are trying to say, but I have to disagree with that line of thinking. Because it once more turns Palestinians into pawns of political manoeuvres. They are people in desperate need of help. So the countries close have a morale obligation to provide this help. And when the option is there, Palestinians can freely decide what’s right for them and what isn’t. Going by what you’re suggesting, they would be forced into staying in this situation. If help and refuge are provided, they have a choice. They deserve to choose.

 

[NotThatSoph]

When I see the stark contrast about how much noise Arab countries and Turkey make about Palestinians in Gaza while it's total silence about what is happening to Uyghurs in Xinjiang (or East Turkestan for the locals), it already speaks a lot of volumes. Now that no Arab country (not even Saudi Arabia, not even Qatar, not even the UAE - all rich countries) will lift a single finger to take care of a single Gazan refugee right now, it only confirms that hypocrisy I have seen unfolding for a number of years now, especially when Europe and North America made several efforts to receive Ukrainian refugees over the last 20 months in comparison.

"Türkiye hosts four million refugees and has been the largest refugee hosting country in the world for the past nine years." - https://reporting.unhcr.org/operational/operations/türkiye#:~:text=Türkiye hosts four million refugees,and maintains the geographical limitation.

Behind Turkey, you'll find Iran, Jordan, Germany and Pakistan. If we adjust for population, then the most welcoming country by very far is Lebanon, then Jordan.

 

[E-mal]

I get what you are trying to say, but I have to disagree with that line of thinking. Because it once more turns Palestinians into pawns of political manoeuvres. They are people in desperate need of help. So the countries close have a morale obligation to provide this help. And when the option is there, Palestinians can freely decide what’s right for them and what isn’t. Going by what you’re suggesting, they would be forced into staying in this situation. If help and refuge are provided, they have a choice. They deserve to choose.

Accepting refugees means transferring the problem and allowing Israel take more territories which they will never give back from their past history. This will only result in the final knife through Palestinian hopes for self determination except if you think they don't have that right, do you?

 

[HTG]

Fair point.

There is also the fact that, when Palestinians leave, they're not allowed back. So it's not as simple as other Arab states need to take them in.

It is that simple. Because in this scenario the Palestinians have a choice. And nobody advocating for a free Palestine can seriously argue that it’s wrong to provide them with a choice. It is the most realistic, effective and best way to provide actual aid in this situation.

 

[africanspur]

How about all those Arab states that are waving the Palestinian flags take them in like Europe does with all other refugees? Saudi Arabia has the space and money, but that would require actual empathy and not superficial for political reasons. Strange that all demonstrations for Palestinian people never mention the blockade of all those Arab states refusing to take them in.

How about the fact that they have taken in literally millions of Palestinians, refugees and otherwise over the years?

How about the fact that Arab countries have infinitely more refugees than European countries do?

How about the fact that to the Arabs, Israel is not some light amongst the dark and a beacon of democracy in their region but an occupier and ethnic cleanser of Palestinians? And each time the Palestinians leave, they find an inability to go back.

Spare me any fake bs from yourself about empathy for the Palestinians and educate yourself before your hit and run posts on this thread.

 

[africanspur]

It is that simple. Because in this scenario the Palestinians have a choice. And nobody advocating for a free Palestine can seriously argue that it’s wrong to provide them with a choice. It is the most realistic, effective and best way to provide actual aid in this situation.

Or you know.....stop the country indiscriminately bombing the strip?

Have the Israelis lost literally all agency?

 

[JPRouve]

I get what you are trying to say, but I have to disagree with that line of thinking. Because it once more turns Palestinians into pawns of political manoeuvres. They are people in desperate need of help. So the countries close have a morale obligation to provide this help. And when the option is there, Palestinians can freely decide what’s right for them and what isn’t. Going by what you’re suggesting, they would be forced into staying in this situation. If help and refuge are provided, they have a choice. They deserve to choose.

Which line of thinking are you disagreeing with? Palestinians already have the choice to emigrates, the ones that would leave today would do it due to Israel's current actions. If you organize and promote a large scale displacement of gazans without sanctioning Israel then you are literally killing Palestine.

The point I'm making isn't that palestinians shouldn't be allowed to leave if they want to, I'm telling you that they shouldn't be coerced to leave while the oppressor is literally protected by the international community especially when land grabbing is a century old goal.

Your point makes sense when it's a relatively straightforward scenario like Ukraine where the international community recognizes that Russia is committing crimes and that any land they took isn't recognized, it makes sense when the international community clearly recognizes the ukrainian nationality and borders. But here it's not the case, unless palestinians have decided to give up on being palestinians no one should promote their mass displacement, they should sanction Israel heavily first and recognize Palestine territories otherwise it's a one way ticket.

 

[moses]

How about all those Arab states that are waving the Palestinian flags take them in like Europe does with all other refugees? Saudi Arabia has the space and money, but that would require actual empathy and not superficial for political reasons. Strange that all demonstrations for Palestinian people never mention the blockade of all those Arab states refusing to take them in.

So killing them is not the issue, it's other Arabs not helping rid the area of Arabs? That's an interesting take.

It's such an odd take. I can't remember anyone ever suggesting that the Irish just feck off to solve the issue of British colonialism.

 

[HTG]

Or you know.....stop the country indiscriminately bombing the strip?

Have the Israelis lost literally all agency?

You shouldn’t provide shelter for the people who lost their houses to arson. You should just stop the arson.
Of course it would be best if the bombing stopped. But the bombs are falling. And you apparently think the best way to aid the victims, is to force them to live with the constant bombardment. And you believe in free Palestine so much, you would gladly take away Palestinians possibility to choose flight.
Whenever there is a conflict, it’s the international communities job to aid civilians as much as possible. Be it via aid or refuge. So right now one of the most humane things any country can do is to take in refugees from Palestine. And make it as easy as possible for Palestinians to seek out refuge. And if that is being done, they can choose for themselves. And we have to accept that choice. They aren’t pawns to be forced to fight because people like you think they should fight and stay for their land. They are people with families and responsibilities who deserve to do what they consider best.
It is completely insane to me that this needs to be argued. This should be the most obvious line of thinking for any humane person.

 

[HTG]

There are already millions of Palestinian refugees in Arab countries. You heartless pricks need to stop victim blaming and channel your energies on stopping the bombing of innocent people.

Who’s victim blaming? They countries refusing to take in refugees aren’t victims. The victims are Palestinians. And they should be free to choose.
And acknowledging this, doesn’t mean that one condones the actions of Israel. It just means that the situation requires the international community to provide aid and refuge.

 

[JPRouve]

You shouldn’t provide shelter for the people who lost their houses to arson. You should just stop the arson.
Of course it would be best if the bombing stopped. But the bombs are falling. And you apparently think the best way to aid the victims, is to force them to live with the constant bombardment. And you believe in free Palestine so much, you would gladly take away Palestinians possibility to choose flight.
Whenever there is a conflict, it’s the international communities job to aid civilians as much as possible. Be it via aid or refuge. So right now one of the most humane things any country can do is to take in refugees from Palestine. And make it as easy as possible for Palestinians to seek out refuge. And if that is being done, they can choose for themselves. And we have to accept that choice. They aren’t pawns to be forced to fight because people like you think they should fight and stay for their land. They are people with families and responsibilities who deserve to do what they consider best.
It is completely insane to me that this needs to be argued. This should be the most obvious line of thinking for any humane person.

That analogy only makes sense if two things are true. The arson is actually considered an arson and he is prosecuted instead of being granted ownership of the property and the people that are sheltered are considered owners of the property and are allowed back regardless of their presence on the property..

The issue being that currently if they leave the property, they lose the property.

 

[africanspur]

You shouldn’t provide shelter for the people who lost their houses to arson. You should just stop the arson.
Of course it would be best if the bombing stopped. But the bombs are falling. And you apparently think the best way to aid the victims, is to force them to live with the constant bombardment. And you believe in free Palestine so much, you would gladly take away Palestinians possibility to choose flight.
Whenever there is a conflict, it’s the international communities job to aid civilians as much as possible. Be it via aid or refuge. So right now one of the most humane things any country can do is to take in refugees from Palestine. And make it as easy as possible for Palestinians to seek out refuge. And if that is being done, they can choose for themselves. And we have to accept that choice. They aren’t pawns to be forced to fight because people like you think they should fight and stay for their land. They are people with families and responsibilities who deserve to do what they consider best.
It is completely insane to me that this needs to be argued. This should be the most obvious line of thinking for any humane person.

I don't think this is the gotcha argument you seem to think it is. Yes it is infinitely better to stop the arson, rather than just running around afterwards trying to deal with the consequences. If there was a known arsonist in the area, not only known but actively and explicitly signalling their intention to commit ever more arson, the response would not be, ah well, we can't stop them. We'll help their next victims after their house burns down. It would be to stop that arson.

This second bolded statement is perhaps one of the most ironic I have ever seen on this forum, considering one of your very first posts in this thread was bemoaning how someone was talking to you and their assumptions of your viewpoints on the matter. This is perhaps one of the stupidest things anyone has ever written to me on this forum.

 

[HTG]

That analogy only makes sense if two things are true. The arson is actually considered an arson and he is prosecuted instead of being granted ownership of the property and the people that are sheltered are considered owners of the property and are allowed back regardless of their presence on the property..

The issue being that currently if they leave the property, they lose the property.

I know. And it should be their choice if they want to choose to lose their property. Jews fleeing the Nazis faced the same dilemma. They should still have had the opportunity to choose. You want to make that choice for them. I want to live it to them. It’s a devastating and terrible choice. But at least it’s theirs.

 

[2mufc0]

Who’s victim blaming? They countries refusing to take in refugees aren’t victims. The victims are Palestinians. And they should be free to choose.
And acknowledging this, doesn’t mean that one condones the actions of Israel. It just means that the situation requires the international community to provide aid and refuge.

This isn't a normal war, the US and the EU could end the bombardment tomorrow if they wanted. You are also ignoring the context, if these last remnants of Palestinians leave gaza there's little chance Israel will ever let them back in resulting in ethnic cleansing. This is what you are advocating.

 

[JPRouve]

I know. And it should be their choice if they want to choose to lose their property. Jews fleeing the Nazis faced the same dilemma. They should still have had the opportunity to choose. You want to make that choice for them. I want to live it to them. It’s a devastating and terrible choice. But at least it’s theirs.

They already have that choice. Palestinians and gazans can legally seek asylum wherever they want if IDF let them out since IDF controls entries and exits. For some reason, you refuse to actually think about the topic what you are suggesting has nothing to do with palestinians freedoms or their interests, it's just a different way to get rid of palestinians with little consequence to western countries and Israel.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

This is only an option if you don't care about palestinians and their right to remain on their land. What you are suggesting is that other countries should support and implement the deportation of people to a foreign land while the oppressor comfortably gains more land without consequences.

The bolded part is key because these same people insist that if Israel does not kill 10,000 people or whatever then Hamas will have been allowed to act without consequences.

Conseequences for thee but not for me.

 

[Ragnar123]

So killing them is not the issue, it's other Arabs not helping rid the area of Arabs? That's an interesting take.

It's such an odd take. I can't remember anyone ever suggesting that the Irish just feck off to solve the issue of British colonialism.

I didn't talk about politics in this case, just presented the most realistic and the fastest way to stop their suffering. The only other faster way would be to stop bombing, but it's just not realistic today because Israel won't stop now. The children don't care about former British Irish crisis politics, they just want to play outside without bombs falling on their heads and the most realistic and fastest way to achieve it is to take in Gazan refugees. So why isn't anyone talking about it? Why is this solution hushed-up in the Arabic countries? Ukraine also faces a military stronger enemy and millions of Ukrainians, who didn't want to suffer Russian missiles fled to Europe. So why isn't it a possibility for the Arab countries? They either care about Palestinian civilians or they just hate Israel.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

The thing about the whole "Arab countries should take more refugees" is that it's an argument to nowhere.

I accept your premise, Arab countries should accept more refugees.

What do you want me to do about it? I don't have a direct line to Mohammed Bin Salman or Ali Khamenei. I am not a citizen of those countries and I don't live there. These countries have weaker ties to Western nations than Israel, which is the U.S.' closest ally in the Middle East, so our capacity as citizens to influence our countries to influence them is weaker.

Ok, so if I can't do anything material about it, I can at least have the right opinion. What is that, disliking Bin Salman, Khamenei, etc.? I already do. I think most people here do. What about this thread suggests that it's a Friends of Bin Salman space?

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

I didn't talk about politics in this case, just presented the most realistic and the fastest way to stop their suffering. The only other faster way would be to stop bombing, but it's just not realistic today because Israel won't stop now. The children don't care about former British Irish crisis policitics, they just want to play outside without bombs falling on their heads and the most realistic and fastest way to achieve it is to take in Gazan refugees.

What you have done is you've arbitrarily decided what is "realistic" and what isn't in such a way that it absolves Israel from the responsibility of bombing children to death.

As africanspur said in the last page, it's all obsfuscation to pretend Israel has no agency. To reduce their actions to that of a hurricane.

 

[Murder on Zidanes Floor]

 

[VorZakone]

 

[africanspur]

I didn't talk about politics in this case, just presented the most realistic and the fastest way to stop their suffering. The only other faster way would be to stop bombing, but it's just not realistic today because Israel won't stop now. The children don't care about former British Irish crisis policitics, they just want to play outside without bombs falling on their heads and the most realistic and fastest way to achieve it is to take in Gazan refugees. So why isn't anyone talking about it? Why is this solution hushed-up in the Arabic countries? Ukraine also faces a military stronger enemy and millions of Ukrainians, who didn't want to suffer Russian missiles fled to Europe. So why isn't it a possibility for the Arab countries? They either care about Palestinian civilians or they just hate Israel.

Ah yep, stopping the bombing isn't realistic.

'Why isn't it a possibility in the Arab countries?'

Jordan: 3.4 million
Syria 630,000
Lebanon 400,000
Saudi Arabia 400,000
Qatar 300,000
Egypt 270,000
UAE 200,000
Kuwait 80,000

etc etc etc.

What number do you think these represents?

 

[ManUtd1999]

I accept your premise, Arab countries should accept more refugees.

Here’s the thing: Ukrainian refugees can return to the Ukraine if they choose to. That’s not necessarily the case with refugees from Gaza.

Arab countries learned the lesson from 1948: if they accept refugees, then that’s it. No going back, and Israel would control more land that would later be settled by Jewish people.This is my understanding from reading and listening to people. 10 thousand might die in Gaza, but as heartbreaking as that might be, leaving would be a worse choice.

 

[VorZakone]

Ah yep, stopping the bombing isn't realistic.

'Why isn't it a possibility in the Arab countries?'

Jordan: 3.4 million
Syria 630,000
Lebanon 400,000
Saudi Arabia 400,000
Qatar 300,000
Egypt 270,000
UAE 200,000
Kuwait 80,000

etc etc etc.

What number do you think these represents?

Qatar hosts 300,000 refugees?

 

[Kaos]

Here’s the thing: Ukrainian refugees can return to the Ukraine if they choose to. That’s not necessarily the case with refugees from Gaza.

Arab countries learned the lesson from 1948: if they accept refugees, then that’s it. No going back, and Israel would control more land that would later be settled by Jewish people.This is my understanding from reading and listening to people.

Spot on. Unlike Ukrainians, Palestinians have no right of return. The reason these Arab countries collectively host millions of refugees is because they haven't been allowed to return to their homes. Yet people believe the most humane solution is to complete Palestine's ethnic cleansing but shifting the remaining Palestinians over there too.

Do people not realise thats precisely the goal of Netanyahu and his hardliners - complete annexation. The whole western world has sanctioned Russia to the eyeballs for doing the same in Ukraine, yet falls deafly silent in regards to Israel. Imagine if the solution proposed to the war in Ukraine was for all of them to just feck off to neighbouring nations while Russia continues to annex swathes of Ukraine. Can't stop the bombs dropping right?

 

[africanspur]

Qatar hosts 300,000 refugees?

Not refugees, 300,000 Palestinians as a whole apparently live there. Not all of the Palestinian diaspora live in refugee camps, many are just normally integrated and live their lives in their host country.

 

[united_99]

The German posters in this thread are fecking weird (not including my guy hasanejaz and Halftrack).

You can hardly blame German posters/people when 99,99 German politicians and at least 98% of German media don’t have the balls and/or aren’t allowed to say anything even slightly negative about Israel or show any sympathy for the Palestine people.

British media at least occasionally shows a longer interview from Palastinians (journalists, ngo, public, …) where they tell what Israel has actually been doing to Palastine people not just now, but for decades, while German media repeatedly shows reports of how Hamas recruit children and how the Israelis live in fear.
They constantly show interviews of Israeli politicians and army members who all talk like Trump.
On the dead Palestine people they just briefly quote the numbers and many times not even that, instead they just say “dead and wounded on both sides”.

If they show Gaza destruction, etc., they immediately turn their attention on Israel’s right to defence, free hostages and then take you to another interview with an Israeli army general who then again tells how many children are being held hostage by Hamas (he never mentions the thousands of children his army is killing and the German journalists never dare to ask him about it).
And a lot of Germans genuinely believe Germany and West are the good guys and German media is unbiased and covers all sides of a story equally. It’s Germany after all and not Russia or Qatar.

 

[YouOnlyLiveTwice]

What exactly is Israel’s end goal here then? Eliminate Hamas, level Gaza and that’s it?

Where do you think the million odd survivors will go? Under Israeli governance or levelled with Gaza?

How would i know?

 

[2cents]

Do we not have ex Israeli military saying that was the point of funding Hamas but then go on to say it was ultimately a mistake?

We have acknowledgement from several Israeli authorities in the know that Israel helped facilitate, in various ways, the growth of the Muslim Brotherhood in the occupied territories in the 70s and 80s in order to counter the unifying appeal of the PLO. I’m not aware of acknowledgement of funding for Hamas after it was formed as a militant and political front for the Muslim Brotherhood at the start of the First Intifada, but would be open to correction there.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Do people not realise thats precisely the goal of Netanyahu and his hardliners - complete annexation.

People know what is happening and where it is going. You are just seeing alibis being constructed in real time.