Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

Looking at some poll results from the Israel Democracy Institute:

To what extent do you think that Israel should take into consideration the suffering of the civilian Palestinian population in Gaza when planning the next phases of fighting there?

Not at all: Jews 47.5 Arabs 1.2
Not so much: Jews 35.9 Arabs 4.5
Quite a lot: Jews 7.7 Arabs 21.2
Very much: Jews 5.2 Arabs 62.1
Don't know: Jews 3.7 Arabs 11.0

Do you agree or disagree that when undertaking military operations, the IDF should ensure that it is not breaking international laws and rules of war?

Strongly agree: Jews 14.3 Arabs: 71.2
Somewhat agree: Jews 33.6 Arabs 11.4
Somewhat disagree: Jews 26.6 Arabs 3.8
Strongly disagree: Jews 19.2 Arabs 1.1
Don't know: Jews 6.5 Arabs 12.5


Only 12.9% of Jews in Israel in high support of "considering the suffering of the civilian Palestinian population." 47.5% believes they should not be considered at all.

A larger percentage of Jews in Israel strongly support breaking international laws and rules of war (19.2%) than upholding them (14.3%).
 
pierrethesnack said:
I get the feeling more and more just from speaking to people about this in general that Israel are completely losing the plot/narrative. If I were them I'd worry how their traditional support in the West is eroding away day by day. The news might come up with the usual stuff, but I honestly think there is a shift in how people think about this. Completely anecdotal, of course.
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This. Already seen it with the Norwegian government. In general I feel the population has been more pro-Palestine than Israel for a while, but the shift in the government's stance has now been very visible also. After October 7th every politician focused on having Hamas listed as a terrorist group (Norway never designated them as such before) and the whole "I stand with Israel" charade was very visible. Gradually this has started to change after Israel racked up one war crime after the other, so far culminating in Norway deciding to break away from the its allies and vote for the UN resolution calling for a ceasefire and allowing humanitarian aid as the only Nordic country to do so, with the new foreign minister also publicly calling out "our friend" Israel for the attack on Gaza and also saying that Israel is slowly degrading any support they have built up over the years. Hopefully more will follow suit.

Obviously small steps in a time where much more is needed, but at the same time in the cowardly world of geopolitics still significant developments.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
Looking at some poll results from the Israel Democracy Institute:

To what extent do you think that Israel should take into consideration the suffering of the civilian Palestinian population in Gaza when planning the next phases of fighting there?

Not at all: Jews 47.5 Arabs 1.2
Not so much: Jews 35.9 Arabs 4.5
Quite a lot: Jews 7.7 Arabs 21.2
Very much: Jews 5.2 Arabs 62.1
Don't know: Jews 3.7 Arabs 11.0

Do you agree or disagree that when undertaking military operations, the IDF should ensure that it is not breaking international laws and rules of war?

Strongly agree: Jews 14.3 Arabs: 71.2
Somewhat agree: Jews 33.6 Arabs 11.4
Somewhat disagree: Jews 26.6 Arabs 3.8
Strongly disagree: Jews 19.2 Arabs 1.1
Don't know: Jews 6.5 Arabs 12.5


Only 12.9% of Jews in Israel in high support of "considering the suffering of the civilian Palestinian population." 47.5% believes they should not be considered at all.

A larger percentage of Jews in Israel strongly support breaking international laws and rules of war (19.2%) than upholding them (14.3%).
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Is this different to before 7th Oct?
 
pierrethesnack said:
I get the feeling more and more just from speaking to people about this in general that Israel are completely losing the plot/narrative. If I were them I'd worry how their traditional support in the West is eroding away day by day. The news might come up with the usual stuff, but I honestly think there is a shift in how people think about this. Completely anecdotal, of course.
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As a small data point on this, a so-called 'citizen's initiative' in Denmark just reached the required 50,000 signatures, which means that parliament has to at least consider it. The headline for the initiative reads: "Denmark must condemn Israeli warcrimes, increase humanitarian aid for Palestine and work towards a political solution to the conflict".

It's a relatively minor thing, I know, but it does show that the entire population doesn't agree with what our politicians are saying.
 
Dr. StrangeHate said:
Is this different to before 7th Oct?
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Hard to say. The same question wouldn't be asked each time.

In 2020, this question was asked:

"The chief prosecutor of the International Criminal Court in The Hague has announced that there is a basis to open an investigation against Israel on suspicion of committing war crimes in the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip. Some claim that Israel should not cooperate with this investigation since it will be biased against it from the start, and some claim that in order to prove such crimes were not committed and to bolster Israel’s international status, it should cooperate with the investigation. With which position do you agree more?”

55% of Jews said Israel should not cooperate; 29% of Jews said it should.

In 2014, Israelis were asked about the amount of firepower used in Operation Protective Edge.

48% of Jews said the amount used was appropriate and 45% said the amount was too little. 6% thought too much firepower was used. The numbers for Arabs were 62% too much, 10% too little, 3% the appropriate amount.

Between 1000-1500 civilians died in Operation Protective Edge.
 


Horrific thread. Physically pains to watch this kinda thing. When you strip away someone's dignity like this, it can never end well.
 
Dr. StrangeHate said:
The more I learn about Churchill, the less I want to know. I am wondering if that was the general view around the time and Churchill's views are not out of the ordinary.
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Same here. Abhorrent evil man, no less than most other historical genocidal cnuts
 
I don't know how to embed the link.

My friend of a friend in Gaza has sent an audio clip which suggests American pilots over Gaza.

When asked to identify they say "unable to identify at this time"
 
Speaking of genocidal cnuts, here's Hamas stating they want all of Israel destroyed, that the 7/10 massacres were justified and will be repeated over and over again, and that they will never stop.

 
Drizzle said:
Speaking of genocidal cnuts, here's Hamas stating they want all of Israel destroyed, that the 7/10 massacres were justified and will be repeated over and over again, and that they will never stop.

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Which is why they are a recognized terrorist organization. Sadly IDF isn't one, though they speak the same tongue and do similar acts.
 
Dr. StrangeHate said:
The more I learn about Churchill, the less I want to know. I am wondering if that was the general view around the time and Churchill's views are not out of the ordinary.
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Churchill was a man for his time, had he not been the whole of Europe would have come under the 'jack boot' of Hitler. Churchill also had a good friend in the US presidency at the time; he was however not a peacetime leader and got voted out of office after the war, which perhaps answers your second question.
 
Drizzle said:
Speaking of genocidal cnuts, here's Hamas stating they want all of Israel destroyed, that the 7/10 massacres were justified and will be repeated over and over again, and that they will never stop.

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Chilling the way he casually he speaks about the annihilation of Israel.
 
Dr. StrangeHate said:
The more I learn about Churchill, the less I want to know. I am wondering if that was the general view around the time and Churchill's views are not out of the ordinary.
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People are in general a shade of grey and not black and white. Churchill was adored for his wartime exploits.
 
Dr. StrangeHate said:
The more I learn about Churchill, the less I want to know. I am wondering if that was the general view around the time and Churchill's views are not out of the ordinary.
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I was born in London but grew up in the Caribbean and there you are taught Caribbean history which basically teaches you history from the side of the victims. The one take away is that nearly always the so called "advanced society", the "superior people", the "Great Empires", those people are the true brutes, the true savages and the true Barbarians. Yet as history is written by the victors, the subjugated and oppressed are demonised and labelled as the savages to justify the actions of the "Superior Society". The reality of it is this, there is no difference between what Hamas did on October 7th and what Israel is currently doing. Both was and are indiscriminate killing of innocent civilians. There is all this talk about this being an existential crisis for Israel, it is not, it is an existential crisis for the Palestinian people.
 
Maticmaker said:
Churchill was a man for his time, had he not been the whole of Europe would have come under the 'jack boot' of Hitler. Churchill also had a good friend in the US presidency at the time; he was however not a peacetime leader and got voted out of office after the war, which perhaps answers your second question.
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Yia, quite likely a peacetime president would have been ill-suited to lead England during WWII.
 
Why do the refugee camps keep getting hit by missiles? Do Israel target the camps or are they accidental hits (I can't see how though)?
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
Do we have a transcript of that video that isn't translated by an organization with a Wikipedia section titled Translation Accuracy and Controversy?
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"Co-founded by former Israeli military intelligence officer Yigal Carmon...". Interesting.

In any case, I wouldn't doubt that the translations accurately represent what Hamas' intentions are. Maybe he used more moderate language in reality, but it hardly changes anything. People know that Hamas is a ruthless terror organization with a specific goal in mind.
 
Withnail said:
Not to derail the thread but the shade of grey charactisation is a bit of a piss-take. He was a racist and a total cnut. None of his wartime exploits change that.
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And also hero of WWII and defender of the free world. I understand that people would like to keep their whites whites and blacks black (no racial connotation intended) but it does indeed shade the colors of his character.

edit. But yes, overall, he was a cnut.
 
Scandi Red said:
Why do the refugee camps keep getting hit by missiles? Do Israel target the camps or are they accidental hits (I can't see how though)?
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Sounds like Hamas leaders hide among them and Israel doesn't give a fk so they bomb the sht out of everyone
 
Scandi Red said:
Why do the refugee camps keep getting hit by missiles? Do Israel target the camps or are they accidental hits (I can't see how though)?
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Most of the population of Gaza are categorized as refugees by UNRWA, and there are a number of large, recognized refugee camps throughout the strip that have existed since 1948/49. I haven’t been to Gaza but if these camps are similar to those you find in the West Bank and Syria, then they are fairly indistinguishable from the surrounding urban area.
 
2cents said:
then they are fairly indistinguishable from the surrounding urban area.
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Shocking if true! Surely you would want to quickly build some sort of clear distinction, knowing that the Israeli army is advanced enough to at least in theory avoid the camps.
 
Drizzle said:
Speaking of genocidal cnuts, here's Hamas stating they want all of Israel destroyed, that the 7/10 massacres were justified and will be repeated over and over again, and that they will never stop.

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This is not particularly unexpected and consistent with the original Hamas charter. I'm sure this is getting blasted out by the Israeli government today.
 
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Scandi Red said:
Shocking if true! Surely you would want to quickly build some sort of clear distinction, knowing that the Israeli army is advanced enough to at least in theory avoid the camps.
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Would it make a difference? Israel have made it pretty clear that as long as they believe they are getting Hamas, they couldn't care less how many innocent Palestinians are in the way. And Hamas would not refrain from hiding in a clearly marked refugee camp either.
 
Scandi Red said:
Shocking if true! Surely you would want to quickly build some sort of clear distinction, knowing that the Israeli army is advanced enough to at least in theory avoid the camps.
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Israel is not doing a surgical strike, I believe. Didn't their spokesperson say, some buildings in the vicinity just fell?
 
Scandi Red said:
Shocking if true! Surely you would want to quickly build some sort of clear distinction, knowing that the Israeli army is advanced enough to at least in theory avoid the camps.
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That’s just the way the camps have evolved over 75 years of Egyptian and Israeli occupation. The largest camps have tens or in some cases I believe hundreds of thousands of residents. We’re not talking refugee tent cities as in, say, places like Sudan. Israel knows exactly where they are, Israel knows every street and alleyway in the Gaza Strip.
 
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