Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

gfactor86 said:
you realise that it wasn't always a "prison"?
Israel unilaterally dismantled its own settlements in Gaza and gave the land to the Palestinians.

instead of using the opportunity to coexist peacefully and in prosperity with Israel, they voted in Hamas and started blowing themselves up on buses in Israeli cities.

Ask yourself what a "Free Palestine" means. What happens if Israel decided to just let them into Israeli cities. What would happen? Would be a horror show
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Israel was very kind to dismantle part of the prison they created themselves. And fortunately they haven't built any more settlements.

I don't believe palestinians would start murdering people in israeli cities if they were free, but maybe that's because I don't think all palestinians are hamas terrorists. It would be convenient for those doing the killing if they were, but in reality it's israel who is creating an actual real "horror show", and I prefer discussing things actually happening right now than hypotheticals based on islamophobia.
 
2cents said:
I don't know of anything so explicit, no. I would say that there are important differences in each case. On a regional level, pre-Suez Nasser was something of an unknown quantity but obviously a rising star with the potential to guide an Arab alliance to a another round of confrontation, whereas by 1967 his regional prestige had declined considerably due to a series of failures, and the Israelis had a better idea of who they were dealing with. Not that they weren't always open to any opportunity to humble him, but the same level of urgency about it wasn't there in the mid-60s as compared to a decade before.

In terms of immediate causes/escalations, the pre-Suez confrontation with Nasser was fueled by Egyptian-sponsored cross-border infiltration from Gaza and harsh Israeli responses, culminating in Suez and more than a decade of relative quiet on the Gaza frontier. It was gradual escalation with Syria in the north from 1966 onward that helped produce a more proactive and provocative policy as 1967 approached, with repeated Israeli warnings of strong measures should Syrian-sponsored cross-border attacks continue. But at the crucial moment in May, it doesn't seem that the Israelis were looking for conflict with Syria, given they offered to give the Soviet ambassador a tour of the north to disprove the claims of a military buildup there.

I've only read reviews of it, but apparently Tom Segev's 1967 argues that the war was primarily produced by a combination of Israeli anxieties and chauvinist expansionism in a context of economic downturn and social unrest. However I'd note that this is an explicitly revisionist take, and the one other book of his that I have read - One Palestine, Complete - would make me question his reliability as a guide in these matters. Most accounts emphasize the context of inter-Arab rivalries and the Cold War in producing the crisis, and in particular the Soviet role in triggering the immediate escalation that May.*

*(Edit) Example, this is from a great book called The Politics of Miscalculation in the Middle East by the American Arabist diplomat Richard B. Parker:

"None of the parties to the conflict seem to have anticipated war in the spring of 1967. There was tension along the Israeli-Syrian border, but that was normal. Egypt was thought to be too involved in Yemen, where the best third of its army was tied down, to undertake any military initiatives. Jordan wanted peace along its border, and so did Lebanon. Syria was being troublesome but was too weak to attack Israel, and the Israelis had no interest in a major war with anyone.​
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In retrospect it is clear that the political-military solution was super-saturated and all that was required to make it precipitate was for someone to drop in a crystal of solute. That act was performed by the Soviet Union."​
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Thanks.
 
Frosty said:
Honestly if you are looking for a strongly held pro-Israel view you could see anything Alan Dershowitz has said. I think there are a few videos on YouTube with him debating Norman Finkelstein and Noam Chomsky which are good as they will show you the immediate counters offered to his positions
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The Finkelstein one where he dismantles his book is brutal.
 
gfactor86 said:


This is triggering. Don't tell me all the people here are Hamas. They are delighted as they spit and beat the lifeless bodies of Israelis. Absolute savages.

This is before Israel retaliated.
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Want me to post videos of Israelis urinating on Palestinian corpses? Gouging out their eyes? Beating them?

You're the most odious poster on here by far.
 
Dirty Schwein said:
BBC News - BBC assesses footage of hostages and tunnels released by Israel https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67478425

BBC Verify looking into the tunnel and hostage videos.

They haven't spotted anything dodgy like the first video of the hospital to be fair.

Although I still don't think it necessarily proves much beyond the fact that there is a tunnel under the hospital and that an injured person was bought into the hospital by Hamas.

Keenly awaiting footage on what's behind that door though. That could be a make or break moment for IDF.
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I saw reports those tunnels were made by the IDF in the 80s hence why they knew Hamas could be there.
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
I saw reports those tunnels were made by the IDF in the 80s hence why they knew Hamas could be there.
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Yes I read the same thing, 1983 I believe. That's why I'm saying that I don't know how IDF think these two videos prove there is a Hamas command centre at Al Shifa.

But I am curious to see what's behind that door.
 
Dirty Schwein said:
Yes I read the same thing, 1983 I believe. That's why I'm saying that I don't know how IDF think these two videos prove there is a Hamas command centre at Al Shifa.

But I am curious to see what's behind that door.
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It doesn't prove anything other than they want to lower international criticism and create justification for why they are bombing hospitals.
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
It doesn't prove anything other than they want to lower international criticism and create justification for why they are bombing hospitals.
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Yeah I'm hearing that the Indonesian hospital is now out of order and nowhere in North Gaza to get aid with Khan Younis in the south next.

Was listening to an interview from Sky News with Mark Regev, who said they're going to build some sort of temporary pop-up style hospitals... How the hell would that work? :wenger:
 


This, the targeting of journalists, the videos of the soldiers strutting around the school blackboards and of course the uncountable bombings against schools - reminds me of the directives of the Nazis against Polish culture.
 
Dirty Schwein said:
Yeah I'm hearing that the Indonesian hospital is now out of order and nowhere in North Gaza to get aid with Khan Younis in the south next.

Was listening to an interview from Sky News with Mark Regev, who said they're going to build some sort of temporary pop-up style hospitals... How the hell would that work? :wenger:
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Jordan moved into Gaza with their temporary/field hospital today plus 170 staff members including medical staff. Beds, equipment, etc. were beforehand transported from Jordan to Egypt via several planes. Then today the Jordan Crown Prince also arrived in Egypt to oversee the logistics/meet people.

UAE is also in the process of building one temporary hospital (or maybe they already did), Qatar may be next according to reports.
Turkey and UAE have also started evacuating injured children plus cancer patients for treatment in Turkey/UAE.
France is also in the process of building a ship hospital at the Gaza coast.
So thankfully at least some stuff is happening and hopefully there will be much more soon.
 
united_99 said:
Jordan moved into Gaza with their temporary/field hospital today plus 170 staff members including medical staff. Beds, equipment, etc. were beforehand transported from Jordan to Egypt via several planes. Then today the Jordan Crown Prince also arrived in Egypt to oversee the logistics/meet people.

UAE is also in the process of building one temporary hospital (or maybe they already did), Qatar may be next according to reports.
Turkey and UAE have also started evacuating injured children plus cancer patients for treatment in Turkey/UAE.
France is also in the process of building a ship hospital at the Gaza coast.
So thankfully at least some stuff is happening and hopefully there will be much more soon.
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Hopefully these will help the people in need. Any news if the UK or US getting involved with this?
 
Halftrack said:
Want me to post videos of Israelis urinating on Palestinian corpses? Gouging out their eyes? Beating them?

You're the most odious poster on here by far.
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It may not have been intended to do so, but the video he posted makes a valid point as refutation of the many posters on here who wish to make a hard distinction between Hamas and Palestinians or Gazans. This video supports the idea that at the time there seemed to be a pretty significant level of support among Palestinians/Gazans for the actions of Hamas.

And this video was posted/live-streamed by Palestinians so it can't easily be dismissed as war propaganda like so much else that comes out from both sides making atrocity claims against the other.
 
Stack said:
Oh come on man.
Stop with the simplistic statements

The way you phrase your first sentence is that because Arafat turned the offered solution down that its all been downhill since then infers it was Arafat and the palestinians fault.
You completely fail to address why the deal was turned down. Im not saying he was right to turn it down but your framing of everything is completely one eyed.

Also your statement about looking for the starting point of the conflict being when Arab countries attacked Israel is also incredibly simplistic and frames the blame completely to one side. It completely ignores the history and warnings given well before Israel was created in its modern form. Again Im not saying the Arab nations were right but pointing out how you are framing your points so as to it all being the fault of one side. Simplistic and lacking in any level of depth or good faith.

It would be interesting to see you try and look at things from the Palestinian and Arab point of view. Im not saying they are right but if you made an effort to do that you might stop with the bad faith arguments you use.
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Arafat was an idiot to outright reject the 2 state solution offer made to the PLO in 2000, on the grounds that there was no full right of return, which Israel were never ever going to agree to, as it effectively would have legislated Israel's right to exist away. Arafat let his hatred for Israel count for more than what was a least shit option, that might at least have avoided the current shit show, at least to some degree. He basically kicked the can down the road giving Israel time to fragment the West Bank with settlements making even the offer made in 2000 now impossible. Be careful what you wish for I guess.

And before people leap up and down, no, this doesn't mean Israel are in any way an innocent party in all of this. But there is lots of blame and misjudgment on various timescales to go around.
 
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Dirty Schwein said:
Yes I read the same thing, 1983 I believe. That's why I'm saying that I don't know how IDF think these two videos prove there is a Hamas command centre at Al Shifa.

But I am curious to see what's behind that door.
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Isn't that exactly how they knew there was an underground command center?
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
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I suspect the imposed removal of West Bank settlements is almost impossible now. The purpose of the settlements was to permanently expand Israeli land and prevent backtracking to former boundaries/occupancy. One reason a 2 state solution hasn't happened is that Israel needed one far less that the Palestinians did, even though an achievable one would have been far less than they hoped for.
 
Dirty Schwein said:
Hopefully these will help the people in need. Any news if the UK or US getting involved with this?
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UK, US and Germany will only get involved once Israel tells them for now it feels it has killed enough Palastinian people and infrastructure.
 
united_99 said:
UK, US and Germany will only get involved once Israel tells them for now it feels it has killed enough Palastinian people and infrastructure.
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All those countries are shit and they support terrorists!
 
marktan said:
Curious your opinions on the 1948 UN resolution that started this, and where the Palestinians who were the majority in Palestine lost most of their land.

Are you aware that the motion was going to fail to pass?

Are you aware that the Israelis used Truman and themselves to threaten various countries with punishment from the US unless it passed?
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Obviously the creation of Israel essentially ignored that people already lived there even if there wasn't a country per se there. Which is all largely irrelevant because Israel exists and is going to continue to do so.

You seem to be blaming the Palestinians and Arafat for the situation they find themselves in,
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Arafat and the PLO for sure have to take some of the blame. Palestinians in general not so much.

Zionists for causing this mess in the first place?
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Yes although you can see why there needed to be a Jewish homeland, just not why is had to be done ignoring people who lived in the region. And they obviously have significantly controlled much of what has happened since. And behaved badly in general.

I think when you say 'be careful what you wish for', what they wished for was to be able to live on their own land and not kicked out by some shame faux-deomocratic UN resolution. Their fault for not accepting whatever crums they've been offered since?
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They have paid the penalty for refusing what was on offer from those in control, those who had the power handed to them by the 6 day war. What was offered was much better than what they will ever get now. In NI the "solution" was far from perfect and nobody got exactly what they wanted, but the outcome was a million times better than what went before. And people have largely stopped being killed. Simply saying "It isn't fair" on its own is useless.

Had you been kicked out of your land in Australia 50 years ago, do you think your offspring would be content to accept a small corner of your land in the future, but the families forced out of your neighbourhood would have no right for their children to return? The argument 'well, if they don't do that they're going to get evicted and settled on and often killed from wherever they're living on now and then some other small strip of land your relatives live on is going to get bombed to pieces every few years' is an act of hindsight and really victim blaming.
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Erm? The original Australian's were kicked off their land and treated even worse that Palestinians were when people arrived and created a county, on the assumption that there was nothing there before - and then murdered, forcibly moved to camps, had their children removed etc. Terra nullis. Whatever the injustice proposing a solution/reconciliation that involves modern Australia ceasing to be is just delusional.

I mean in the end discussions like these are a bit pointless, most people have already set out their stall. Either theyre with the Israelis and so think the Palestinians deserve what they're getting regardless of what happens, or vice versa think the Israelis deserve what they got on the 7th. Though tbf the latter camp is rarer, but somehow Israel killing 13,000 people in a month and a half is normalised and an acceptable position on social media. Flip the positions around and all that.
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I'm "with" neither side. I'm against violence, death and injustice. Of course I am. But the idea that all the blame is simply Israel's is simplistic and outright wrong. More than one thing can be simultaneously true. And there is lots of blame to go around.
 
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Beachryan said:
Finally see folks are talking a bit more about the issues, potential paths forward instead of posting latest shock twitter threads. That's something. For me the discussion above is the crux of the matter, indeed having tried to seek out many different views this is where I think we are, realistically:
1. Israel exists where it exists. You can make a very strong argument about why it shouldn't be there, but it is, and you can't now change that. Israel is too rich, too powerful and too entrenched. Further, the majority of initial Jews living in Israel in 1948 were NOT displaced European Jews, but displaced Middle-Eastern Jews. So yelling that they should just go home, and that they're 'coloinalists' akin to what was done all over the world is a bit off base. Personally, given what has been done to the Jewish people several times in history across different leaders, religions and so forth, I can see why the Jewish people feel like they need a failsafe place to call home. Anyway. For me Isreal is gonna be where it is.
2. The two-state solution attempts in the early 2000s were the closest we've gotten to a workable solution, and since then both sides have just gotten more extreme.
3. Netanyahu's desperate personal and hence political struggle of embracing the settlers (because he needs the votes and everyone else hates him) will hopefully be the final nail in his f*cking disgraced obituary. Not a good human.
4. The settlers are obviously in the wrong, particularly when they use violence and intimitation, and even worse when backed up by the IDF.
5. Isreal's treatment of Gaza and the world's apathy were a disgrace. That includes both western countries and arab countries. None of whom did much.
6. Hamas is a fundamentalist, radical terror group and not some put-down-upon ragtag rogues who were just trying to organise a bad situation for its people. It gives two f*cks about its people, their water, their education whcih can be seen by how much of each dollar of aid it stole either for personal wealth (go Google the leaders' net worth) or for military purposes.
7. Given the role of SA and how much money is the new (only?) political language in the area, Hamas knew its days were numbered if Israel and SA agreed a broader peace deal, as it would likely include an agreement for Palestine that doesn't feature Hamas.
8. So we get to October. And this is where I hugely diverge from others: if Hamas doesn't do what it did - at the scale, with the ferocity and with the publicity (Hamas literally filmed a lot of what it did ffs) the situation, today, would be better for Gazans. There would be a better chance of peace of some sort, a better chance of a two-state solution, a better chance of water and so forth.
9. Isreal has used up any traces of goodwill it had left with the West from its reaction, and Netanyahu has condemned his country for a few more months of power. There was 100% a path Isreal could and should have taken than what it has, but that was never going to happen with him in charge. But him being in charge is hardly a mystery, despite huge protests against him.

Finally, and this is clearly where most of the conflict with the majority of posters on this forum lies: I believe there is a path for the world to reign in Israel. War crime tribunals, using these horrible videos as evidence, prosecuting commanding officers and of course Bibi and his current cabinet. I really, desperately hope that happens, publically for the world to see in my lifetime. Because what Israel has done the last month has to be held up as an example that can never be permitted to a 'fellow-member' of the international order. And that's why I don't and can't just state both sides (Hamas/Israel) are the same, it's just not that simple for me.
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I agree is most of it. I could nickpick but the general idea is the same i have
 
glazed said:
Unfortunately if you are drawing from the cause and effect cycle that only Israel is to blame then you are picking a side rather than being even handed. The Palestinians rejected the two state solution in 1948 and have done so a number of times since before Hamas appeared. They (or rather Arab nations in the region) kept starting wars over it and kept losing them, rather like the current situation. Israeli intransigence also exists but has tended towards a different pattern. But if the Palestinians wanted a state they could have had one, albeit never the one they wanted at the time. It is also true that the state on offer has become progressively worse over time and now does not really exist at all. But let's not pretend that's always been the case.
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Ok. Lets say the UN pulls out of ther arse a resolution that half US have to pack their belongings to another area because they are giving half the country to the first nations (who are IMO more entitled than jews to a israel state in 1948). Do you think that US would accept? No country would accept that. Are you crazy?

Then seems that palestine had to go with the UN resolutions but israel doesnt when the resolutions talks about illegal settlements. And had been ignored.

And yes lets not pretend that no country will ever accept to have less that what they already have
 
marktan said:
I'm not asking about the aboroginals, I'm asking about you. If you were in the Palestinians shoes 20 years ago and your lands were stolen 50 years ago, would you accept some subpar deal or fight on (without the benefit of hindsight)? Millions of your people stuck inside some other country with no hope of return?
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You asked me about Australians. I answered about Australians. The Australians who were dispossessed and treated in very similar (only worse) ways to Palestinians. And no. I would never commit violence on innocents people for any cause. And the point is that there is no point bemoaning the fairness of something when you seek something impossible as a solution. In Australia's case some land handback has occurred (but not the sort of land houses are built on and the like) but reverting to some past point before occupation is just impossible and delusional. Just as any Palestinian hope that Israel will just disappear is impossible and delusional. For Palestinians there will either be no deal or a deal that is well short of what Arafat declined in 2000. Fairness is irrelevant when it just isn't an option. Better the least shitty deal possible than no deal. At least far fewer people will die especially as there is no gain for anyone if they continue to die in droves.

What might happen in some fictional modern day isn't really worth pondering as it would involve someone attacking a developed country with a significant armed force. So not analogous to Indigenous Australians being displaced by white settlement or Palestinian displacement when Israel was formed (and since).

It's interesting you bring up the aborginals. I read an article from Gideon Rachman in the FT today (someone whose writing I usually respect a lot) arguing that what's going on in Gaza is okay, because the US dropped the atomic bomb on Hiroshima. Ignoring the many differences between the situation, the fundamental point being, well, worse things have happened in the past, so what's going on in Gaza you can't really complain about.
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Its ok because something worse happened is a silly point (if that was actually the point of the article).

Anyhow I'm not saying you're with any one side in the same way I don't think this is all Israel's fault (in fact in general I respect Israelis for the society they've built, outside of the the treatment of Gaza/West bank and the biannual tradition of butchering the Palestinians). I do take some issue though with the general minimilisation of the suffering of the Palestinians I see from a vocal minority of the western world. Nobody will attempt to justify what Hamas did, but all you see from these groups is a defence and justification of what Israel is currently doing, and somehow that's okay. Would that glib sense of indifference extend the same way if the Palestinians sought out revenge against the IDF and did so by killing 13,000 Israeli civillians? It wouldn't. And the reason why is because it's a subtle form of racism, either knowingly or unkowningly, where the lives of Palestinians and in general browner people or weaker groups of people don't really matter as much.
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I once hear Israelis described as easy to admire and hard to like. There is an element of truth in that. And who is being indifferent? Seeking an unworkable solution will make the Palestinian people suffer more and not less.

Of course, this is partially a result of the concentrated PR effort by Israel, which largely follows these rules:
1) Minimise the stories of the Palestinians in the western media. Does a person who dies without mention or a story really matter? We hear plenty about the hostages or the Kibbutz or the raves, but could many of us tell the story of a single person that died in Gaza? = Dehumanisation
2) Vilify the enemy as some sort of inhumane devil (Hamas), and thus everything you do is suddenly justifiable. You see this with every bombing they do - it's always Hamas was nearby or Hammas had a tunnel or whatever. = dehuminisation
3) Post your own stories loudly and often.

And of course many other aspects of PR that I won't go into for brevity. But it does lead to this sense that Israel because they're strong and because they have the veneer of a more developed society they get a pass, whereas the deaths of Palestinians who have just as many stories as you and I and deserve life just as much as us don't really matter as much. Of course the people who do that are happy to do so because they have know the same sort of things would never happen to them, living in countries protected by strong militaries, but it's very sad to see. But I recognise asking everyone to have sympathy with random groups of people is I stretch. Some people have been mentioning Sudan and Congo and I have almost no idea or interest in what's going on there, prone to the same biases I mention here. Palestine is an issue that's long been on people's memory (including myself) and I guess why it's such an emotive subject for so many.
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Israel are likely to engage in more propaganda but there is also a not insignificant (but probably less coordinated) propaganda effort the other way. Inevitable I guess. Death and suffering is an emotive issue but sadly emotional responses don't often produce workable practical outcomes. Hamas knew this and counted on it when they attacked. Just as Israel know they can rely on it from the majority of their electorate and others (like US) whenever they need to respond to an attack. Depressing but true.
 
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Wibble said:
Arafat was an idiot to outright reject the 2 state solution offer made to the PLO in 2000, on the grounds that there was no full right of return, which Israel were never ever going to agree to, as it effectively would have legislated Israel's right to exist away. Arafat let his hatred for Israel count for more than what was a least shit option, that might at least have avoided the current shit show, at least to some degree. He basically kicked the can down the road giving Israel time to fragment the West Bank with settlements making even the offer made in 2000 now impossible. Be careful what you wish for I guess.

And before people leap up and down, no, this doesn't mean Israel are in any way an innocent party in all of this. But there is lots of blame and misjudgment on various timescales to go around.
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Its a massive massive tragedy all round. Over the decades Palestinian leadership has let their people down horribly and over the same timeframe the Israeli leadership has simply poured fuel on the fire.

Hate breeds hate. Its awful.
 
Stack said:
Its a massive massive tragedy all round. Over the decades Palestinian leadership has let their people down horribly and over the same timeframe the Israeli leadership has simply poured fuel on the fire.

Hate breeds hate. Its awful.
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Agreed.
 
Beachryan said:
I mean, there was a slight difference. If Russia's invasion of Ukraine had been sparked by Ukraine organising a mass murder of Russian civilians, I think actually the whole war would be viewed differently. Because you know, that's a pretty big f*cking difference.

Wait, I'm supposed to say it's because Ukrainians are white? Or Christian? Both?
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It probably would have changed sympathies and willingness to get involved, if after this massacre (which i'm assuming would be of similar size and against Donbas seperatists) the response was a smaller scale incursion to "stabilise" only that region (and no doubt later annex it ). But for a full-scale invasion that quickly devolves into civilian massacres, a brutal siege of an entire city and indiscriminate bombing of its own? No, i think just as with Israel's response to Oct 7th, opinion would have turned against such things, especially as western media would not be so hesistant with a "they are going too far, this is unjustified" perspective.
 
Rudy Rochman and Slavoj Zizek (what a weird combination, I know), made a very similar point recently. For change one that sounds a little bit hopeful. Enjoy.

Rudy is a little bit shorter:


Slavoj gave his usual longer explanation starting at 44:45 but whole video is worth watching:
 
The Corinthian said:


Another martyr.
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I know there’s a lot of loss in this “war”, and I’ve been trying to look at this thread less because the blind eye being turned to mass extermination troubles me down to my core, but my heart aches for my brothers and sisters in the medical fraternity who are being lost here.

The people carrying out these acts, and those justifying and supporting it are scum. Absolute scum.
 
The Corinthian said:


The IDF.
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Again, this might be true, it might not. I'm not sure what posting it helps. No one has a way of verifying such a story. It ticks all the boxes of outrage though.

You'd be belligerent if people were posting random unverified tweets from settlers saying Palestinians did horrible things.

Think we'd all be better off just not, imo.

By all means, post corroborated, news verified atrocities: there are plenty. But I've seen so many debunking sites now that such a perfect outrage tweet falls on my skepticism radar.
 
gfactor86 said:
you realise that it wasn't always a "prison"?
Israel unilaterally dismantled its own settlements in Gaza and gave the land to the Palestinians.

instead of using the opportunity to coexist peacefully and in prosperity with Israel, they voted in Hamas and started blowing themselves up on buses in Israeli cities.

Ask yourself what a "Free Palestine" means. What happens if Israel decided to just let them into Israeli cities. What would happen? Would be a horror show
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So many rotten implications in this post and says a lot about how warped your perspective is.

Israel removing illegal settlements is not a well done, nor is bringing them back as well as killing the Palestinian civilians trying to live peacefully.

Israeli people voted in a terrorist party and contributed to ethnic cleansing? Sweeping statement that is akin to what you’re saying. Not all Palestinians are suicide bombers, just like not all Israelis are committing genocide.

Stop using hypotheticals as justification for the heinous acts. Israel in Palestine is the reality, not Palestine in Israel, and that’s the horror show.
 
VivaObertan said:
So many rotten implications in this post and says a lot about how warped your perspective is.

Israel removing illegal settlements is not a well done, nor is bringing them back as well as killing the Palestinian civilians trying to live peacefully.

Israeli people voted in a terrorist party and contributed to ethnic cleansing? Sweeping statement that is akin to what you’re saying. Not all Palestinians are suicide bombers, just like not all Israelis are committing genocide.

Stop using hypotheticals as justification for the heinous acts. Israel in Palestine is the reality, not Palestine in Israel, and that’s the horror show.
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Seems now is a good time to quietly defend themselves against the Armenians.
 
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