Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

berbatrick said:
we have some equally awful MPs (one is charged with a bombing) - but they would all know about muslim circumcision. i think it might be because for hindus, it is a point of difference, whereas there, it is a similarity?
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People like this minister tend to think jewish people are better than anyone else. I doubt he knows or even cares about muslim customs.
 
25,000 tons of bombs, the equivalent of two Hiroshima nuclear bombs, have been dropped on Gaza and this was three weeks ago. The most recent estimations are close to 40,000 tons.

According to the latest data from the UN’s Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA), World Health Organization (WHO) and the Palestinian government, and as of November 7:

- 222,000 residential units damaged with more than 40,000 completely destroyed.
- 270 healthcare facilities attacked.
- 69 places of worship damaged, including mosques and churches.
- 45 ambulances damaged.
- 11 bakeries destroyed.
 
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Raoul said:
Qatar outfoxes MBS on the international stage yet again.
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It helps when you’re harbouring the terrorist leaders though.

Finally some good news. Hopefully this is the beginning of the end.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
It's been used more than once:

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My point being that in this instance it may be for a specific descriptive purpose that isn't underhanded.

Do you not think that a population of people grabbed from their homes and off the street in a kidnapping raid may be more likely to be related i.e. mothers with their children, than arrestees made by the IDF for supposed crimes?

Do we know whether the Palestinian prisoners are related? If not, the spreading of that gripe on that point is meaningless
 
Wibble said:
Nowhere will you find me supportive of Israel. I would of course like to see Hamas disappear (as I despise terrorists of all sorts, partly as I've had close family members murdered by terrorists, even when I agree with their higher level goals) but not at the price in civilian suffering that it is costing. Hamas are hugely to blame for recent events, even though the events don't exist in a vacuum, and of course Hamas knew this because the attack was precisely to get this response (as Israel will always respond to attacks in this way) and torpedo any chance of Saudi normalising relations with Israel, combined with their usual goal of damaging Israel and Jews as much as possible. Hama don't want a negotiated peace. Israel do but only on a basis that won't reach an agreement (which is nearly the same thing), especially now. The situation has gone from fecked to FUBAR.

And nobody is saying bombing hospitals is reasonable, denying why Israel do it though is not reasonable either as this simply perpetuates Hamas propaganda. Object to propoganda and/or call it out, but not just when it agrees with your (royal you, not you personally) confirmation bias. Not that it really matters as none of the main players are reasonable nor will they be able to be so in the foreseeable future. That doesn't give agency to Israel (not that they care enough in the present circumstances) but delusional one sided opinions seem to be doing exactly that for Hamas, even when it is motivated by seeing the suffering of Palestinian civilians.

Egypt and Jordan won't open their borders because they (Jordan in particular) have in the past and both Egypt and Jordan (probably sensibly) don't want to import the various problems that would entail so are "happy" to leave it as an Israeli problem. And I'm not sure why Arab nations going to war with Israel and losing badly is framed as a good thing. In fact that did much of that damage that remains today.

And Israel doesn't care that much but they also wouldn't deliberately seek to ramp criticism up with such a large scale event when they is zero military advantage. That of course doesn't mean various other civilian deaths due to (at best) not giving a shit aren't occurring. What isn't occurring is many people being able to accept that lots of players are responsible for events that lead up to recent events and also responsible in varying ways and degrees for recent events. And that many of the players have and are acting despicably. It is the polarised views that I'm commenting on that make a proper resolution far less likely. Although of course a "sensible" resolution was unlilley before the Hams attack but is now probably impossible for another generation or more. People with pro-Israeli views and people who are pro-Palestinian are frequently so one eyed that they seem to forget that their "side" are despicable cnuts, just their despicable cnuts, and being cnuts in differing ways.
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I was going to leave it because I'm generally a bit tired of the same conversations going round in the same circles with the same posters but thought I'd come back to this.

I didn't say you explicitly support Israel. Nearly all of your posting though is to place blame on Hamas/ Palestinians in general / Arabs in general.

Actually people have said bombing hospitals are reasonable. In particular, hospitals which harbour extensive military infrastructure. You yourself may not have explicitly said it but you clearly provided the justification yourself. It's why I pulled you up multiple times for conflating the presence of tunnels (which literally nobody denies exist across Gaza, including Hamas themselves) and the presence of a military command centre under Al-Shifa (which for some people, including on here, makes the hospital a valid target, while of course making sure to issue empty platitudes about how they themselves don't personally agree but what you gonna do, Israel gonna Israel). The two are leagues apart in terms of providing justification, even if superficial, for an assault on a hospital.

So far, no evidence of a command HQ. What are you going to do though. Shrug our shoulders I guess.

I'm not saying them going to war and losing is a good thing. It's undoubtedly been a massive negative for the Palestinians that their closest allies have been roundly subdued. I'm saying that your weird focus on the Arabs paying only lip service to them is false. They have gone to war. They have taken literally millions of refugees (and still house millions of them). They have embargoed the west for their support of Israel in wars. None of it have worked and Israel and it's backers have undoubtedly 'won', with all relevant actors now brought under the American umbrella. So yes now the Arab leaders will do nothing but offer lip service now, for many many reasons. Yey somehow they receive more criticism from you about the Palestinians than the actual cause of their problems themselves. Because they don't want to facilitate even more rounds of ethnic cleansing I guess.

Again, don't think anyone here has denied that Hamas are despicable cnuts. Just like nobody denies they're using tunnels. I would like nothing more than those twats disappearing off the face of the earth tomorrow. Definitely people justifying Isrsel's response though, a total lack of agency from Israel or the USA etc etc.
 
africanspur said:
I was going to leave it because I'm generally a bit tired of the same conversations going round in the same circles with the same posters but thought I'd come back to this.

I didn't say you explicitly support Israel. Nearly all of your posting though is to place blame on Hamas/ Palestinians in general / Arabs in general.

Actually people have said bombing hospitals are reasonable. In particular, hospitals which harbour extensive military infrastructure. You yourself may not have explicitly said it but you clearly provided the justification yourself. It's why I pulled you up multiple times for conflating the presence of tunnels (which literally nobody denies exist across Gaza, including Hamas themselves) and the presence of a military command centre under Al-Shifa (which for some people, including on here, makes the hospital a valid target, while of course making sure to issue empty platitudes about how they themselves don't personally agree but what you gonna do, Israel gonna Israel). The two are leagues apart in terms of providing justification, even if superficial, for an assault on a hospital.

So far, no evidence of a command HQ. What are you going to do though. Shrug our shoulders I guess.

I'm not saying them going to war and losing is a good thing. It's undoubtedly been a massive negative for the Palestinians that their closest allies have been roundly subdued. I'm saying that your weird focus on the Arabs paying only lip service to them is false. They have gone to war. They have taken literally millions of refugees (and still house millions of them). They have embargoed the west for their support of Israel in wars. None of it have worked and Israel and it's backers have undoubtedly 'won', with all relevant actors now brought under the American umbrella. So yes now the Arab leaders will do nothing but offer lip service now, for many many reasons. Yey somehow they receive more criticism from you about the Palestinians than the actual cause of their problems themselves. Because they don't want to facilitate even more rounds of ethnic cleansing I guess.

Again, don't think anyone here has denied that Hamas are despicable cnuts. Just like nobody denies they're using tunnels. I would like nothing more than those twats disappearing off the face of the earth tomorrow. Definitely people justifying Isrsel's response though, a total lack of agency from Israel or the USA etc etc.
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Good post.
 
Drainy said:
My point being that in this instance it may be for a specific descriptive purpose that isn't underhanded.

Do you not think that a population of people grabbed from their homes and off the street in a kidnapping raid may be more likely to be related i.e. mothers with their children, than arrestees made by the IDF for supposed crimes?
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The link I showed you uses "women" in both cases but "children" for one and "young people" for the other; that distinction is the most relevant.

The distinction is made because the Palestinians are 14 or older and arrested for (presumably) committing a crime or misdemeanor.

You can define a child as either being below the age of majority or below the age of puberty. You can make your own judgment as to which definition is appropriate for whichever context.
 
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africanspur said:
I was going to leave it because I'm generally a bit tired of the same conversations going round in the same circles with the same posters but thought I'd come back to this.

I didn't say you explicitly support Israel. Nearly all of your posting though is to place blame on Hamas/ Palestinians in general / Arabs in general.
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Only in response to a huge swathe of posting that places all blame on Israel. Israel have a great deal to answer for in general but selectively ignoring everyone's role is happening all the time and predominantly favoring Hamas. Equally blind support for Israel has been less frequent in here, but we have also moderated that content more vigorously as when it occurs it is usually next level biased.

Actually people have said bombing hospitals are reasonable. In particular, hospitals which harbour extensive military infrastructure. You yourself may not have explicitly said it but you clearly provided the justification yourself. It's why I pulled you up multiple times for conflating the presence of tunnels (which literally nobody denies exist across Gaza, including Hamas themselves) and the presence of a military command centre under Al-Shifa (which for some people, including on here, makes the hospital a valid target, while of course making sure to issue empty platitudes about how they themselves don't personally agree but what you gonna do, Israel gonna Israel). The two are leagues apart in terms of providing justification, even if superficial, for an assault on a hospital.
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The point being that people were ludicrously trying to deny Hamas's use of tunnels and bunkers and hospitals. If they had said they didn't think bombing hospitals was justified no matter what (as I did) that would be a supportable stance. Equivocation to back conformational bias isn't imo.

So far, no evidence of a command HQ. What are you going to do though. Shrug our shoulders I guess.
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What evidence did you expect? They had days to evacuate and it beggars belief that they didn't use the facilities the Israeli's left.

I'm not saying them going to war and losing is a good thing. It's undoubtedly been a massive negative for the Palestinians that their closest allies have been roundly subdued. I'm saying that your weird focus on the Arabs paying only lip service to them is false.
Since They have gone to war. They have taken literally millions of refugees (and still house millions of them). They have embargoed the west for their support of Israel in wars.
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Has anyone taken a significant number of refugees since the late 40's when there was no choice (and self inflicted to boot)?

[,quote]None of it have worked and Israel and it's backers have undoubtedly 'won', with all relevant actors now brought under the American umbrella. So yes now the Arab leaders will do nothing but offer lip service now, for many many reasons.
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Which is what I said.

Yey somehow they receive more criticism from you about the Palestinians than the actual cause of their problems themselves. Because they don't want to facilitate even more rounds of ethnic cleansing I guess.
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More? The point is they are getting none.

Again, don't think anyone here has denied that Hamas are despicable cnuts. Just like nobody denies they're using tunnels. I would like nothing more than those twats disappearing off the face of the earth tomorrow.
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Yet their role in all this gets underplayed or ignored. The Israeli response was so predictable (Israel will massively and murderously overeact every time, with no irony, despite the past wrong inflicted on them) yet it gets ignored that the death of their own people is exactly what Hamas wanted.

Definitely people justifying Isrsel's response though, a total lack of agency from Israel or the USA etc etc.
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We have been far harder in modding Zionist conformational bias than we have the other way.
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The whole thread is worth a read.
 
Wibble said:
What evidence did you expect? They had days to evacuate and it beggars belief that they didn't use the facilities the Israeli's left.
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Surely you understand that this won't be persuasive to many people here. It is only slightly different than "Saddam had too much time to hide the WMDs."
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
Surely you understand that this won't be persuasive to many people here. It is only slightly different than "Saddam had too much time to hide the WMDs."
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Not my fault. And two totally different things of course.

Saddam and the WMD was fairly obvious Dubya wish fulfilment swallowed whole by Tony the lapdog.
 
@Wibble What evidence did you expect? They had days to evacuate and it beggars belief that they didn't use the facilities the Israeli's left.
if what you say is accurate then why would the Israelis attack and occupy it? And kill so many more people?
 
I think it's beggar's belief to think that anyone with multiple brain cells would set up the command centre for the whole operation in a bunker that they know Israel have the exact location of(because they built it).
 
Wibble said:
Not my fault.
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It kind of is.

You are trying to sell the argument that we need a nuanced, broader, 'above it all' approach that doesn't take sides.

But then you are effectively taking sides by refusing to give an inch about what appears to have been Israeli propaganda. This undermines your broader argument.
 
Conor said:
I think it's beggar's belief to think that anyone with multiple brain cells would set up the command centre for the whole operation in a bunker that they know Israel have the exact location of(because they built it).
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It's fairly obvious Israel just drew up list of likely bases and then targetted them accordingly. That's enough justification according to some, shouldn't be for anyone who cares about innocent lives.

Why this is such a dominating topic of conversation though is the infuriating aspect. I said before it's a silly attempt from some to play gotcha where somehow they win a very targetted argument if there were a base there. It doesn't change anything other than point scoring but to be right on one thing is to be right about everything to some.

It's obvious where this is going, they'll be attacks from Hamas during the 'humanitarian pause' and thus we'll have another round of 'Hamas bad guys, therefore Israel good guys'.
 
Smores said:
It's fairly obvious Israel just drew up list of likely bases and then targetted them accordingly. That's enough justification according to some, shouldn't be for anyone who cares about innocent lives.

Why this is such a dominating topic of conversation though is the infuriating aspect. I said before it's a silly attempt from some to play gotcha where somehow they win a very targetted argument if there were a base there. It doesn't change anything other than point scoring but to be right on one thing is to be right about everything to some.

It's obvious where this is going, they'll be attacks from Hamas during the 'humanitarian pause' and thus we'll have another round of 'Hamas bad guys, therefore Israel good guys'.
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The most shocking thing in all of this to me is how much the goal posts seemed to have moved, in terms of what's an acceptable target in a 'war'. I don't understand how it's even in discussion that a school, refugee camp, or hospital are targets that should be acted upon.
 
Smores said:
It's obvious where this is going, they'll be attacks from Hamas during the 'humanitarian pause' and thus we'll have another round of 'Hamas bad guys, therefore Israel good guys'.
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Really concerning that you can have this view. If they (Hamas) don't adhere to the pause, then yes, that puts them in the wrong. And yes, they are "bad guys" regardless. Your post some how reads that Hamas are the victims here. Hamas is the enemy of Israel and the Palestinians.
 
Conor said:
The most shocking thing in all of this to me is how much the goal posts seemed to have moved, in terms of what's an acceptable target in a 'war'. I don't understand how it's even in discussion that a school, refugee camp, or hospital are targets that should be acted upon.
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I'm amazed by how quickly something becomes "tolerated" or "accepted". Really eye opening.
 
WeePat said:
It's helplessness and unfairness of it all that boils my blood when I see what those illegal settlers are doing.
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These terrorists have been enabled by their government and are protected by their army, with the unconditional support of the US, the EU and Britain, while the rest of the world turns a blind eye, waiting for Palestine to quietly vanish from the region and History.

There's not even an illusion of international laws anymore. Anyone with the bigger army in any given region of the world is now completely free to do whatever they want. Ukraine, Sudan, Yemen, Palestine...it's massacre after massacre.
 
https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-67494374

Really disappointing from an industry that I want to be a part of. So disheartening.

I know it's not new news as such and quite predictable but still a blow when I read about it.

My guy John Cusack recently tweeted a very angry tweet about the US involvement (or non-involvement, depends how you want to look at it) with what's going on so expecting him to be dropped too.
 
gfactor86 said:
Really concerning that you can have this view. If they (Hamas) don't adhere to the pause, then yes, that puts them in the wrong. And yes, they are "bad guys" regardless. Your post some how reads that Hamas are the victims here. Hamas is the enemy of Israel and the Palestinians.
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Only through your ridiculous bias and paranoia could you read it that way. The obvious point is it's an undeniable truth that Hamas are bad guys, it has no bearing on the judgment of Israel and its actions yet it often becomes a mechanism for exactly that through two-siding the debate.

There is two sides but it's civilians vs military.
 
Dirty Schwein said:
https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-67494374

Really disappointing from an industry that I want to be a part of. So disheartening.

I know it's not new news as such and quite predictable but still a blow when I read about it.

My guy John Cusack recently tweeted a very angry tweet about the US involvement (or non-involvement, depends how you want to look at it) with what's going on so expecting him to be dropped too.
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They can't drop Tom Cruise, can they? He is probably the most recognizable face on the planet.
 
stevoc said:
I imagine outfoxing MBS isn't a Herculean task to be fair.
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It’s definitely made much easier when one’s country serves as the de facto Airbnb for Hamas leadership. MBS tried his own gimmick to appear relevant by hosting an Arab summit a few weeks ago, which yielded nothing because the two main players (Israel and the US) weren’t involved, which ended up making the event little more than a PR exercise where regional Arab leaders made it look as if they were doing something to assuage their domestic protests.
 
Dirty Schwein said:
https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-67494374

Really disappointing from an industry that I want to be a part of. So disheartening.

I know it's not new news as such and quite predictable but still a blow when I read about it.

My guy John Cusack recently tweeted a very angry tweet about the US involvement (or non-involvement, depends how you want to look at it) with what's going on so expecting him to be dropped too.
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Susan Sarandon was dropped from her talent agency for similar speech.
 
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