Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[2mufc0]

We repeat the same information about the 300 Palestinians that have been released from Israeli prison. 233 of them have never been convicted of anything and sitting in prison some of them for 2 years. 2 years no trial.

And if they get to go to trial, it is a military court.

The only country in the world, the only one that trial civilians mostly minors in military courts. This is not a state, its a criminal gang.

Even if they have been convicted I doubt very much they had a fair trial. How can you have a fair trial when you are treated as second class citizens.

 

[Pintu]

Doesn’t want to alienate the Jewish voting bloc in this country especially during election season.

Most Jews in America would still see Biden as a better candidate than Trump even if he were to come out as less supportive of Israel than your average USA president is supposed to be.

If we have to base the analysis purely on it being an election year it wouldn’t about Jewish voters. It is much more likely to be about the strong pro-Israel & pro-war lobbies… Losing their financing is much more dangerous in an election year than losing a few thousands voters here and there.


But I think he would have the same reasoning even outside of any electoral calculus. Israel is the main ally of the US in the region and will always be an ally (Israel has no other choice/or so it seems).


The Arab countries that are considered to be on team USA aren’t as loyal as they used to be. I believe Egypt sold weapons to Russia last year. This makes it harder for them (thinking of Egypt & Jordan here) to ask Biden for a more balanced positioning.



This is a bad calculus nonetheless. The real war (against China) is yet to come and it will be a long one (Cold War, trade war… )

In that war, we (the global West) are gonna need all our allies on our side. Both Israelis and Arabs are supposed to be on our side when the time comes. It is in our interests to deescalte the Israeli-Palestinian conflict (go back to Oslo level) to the point where all in the Middle East can work together with us, instead of having a large part of the Middle East (Yemen, Lebanon, Syria…with Iran behind them) working against us and our Arab allies (Egypt and KSA??) staying neutral.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Most Jews in America would still see Biden as a better candidate than Trump even if he were to come out as less supportive of Israel than your average USA president is supposed to be.

I'll fill this in with some numbers from the Jewish Electorate Institute.

• Jewish voters hold extremely negative views toward Donald Trump, and they continue to provide Biden overwhelming margins over Trump. Biden leads Trump 68 to 22 percent in a 2024 match-up. 77 percent have an unfavorable view of Trump.
• American Jews do not believe criticism of Israeli policy means someone is not pro-Israel. 91 percent think someone can be critical of government policy and still be pro-Israel. 76 percent think someone can be critical of how Israel is conducting the war with Hamas and still be pro-Israel.

There's clearly some room to maneuver here.

 

[calodo2003]

Most Jews in America would still see Biden as a better candidate than Trump even if he were to come out as less supportive of Israel than your average USA president is supposed to be.

If we have to base the analysis purely on it being an election year it wouldn’t about Jewish voters. It is much more likely to be about the strong pro-Israel & pro-war lobbies… Losing their financing is much more dangerous in an election year than losing a few thousands voters here and there.


But I think he would have the same reasoning even outside of any electoral calculus. Israel is the main ally of the US in the region and will always be an ally (Israel has no other choice/or so it seems).


The Arab countries that are considered to be on team USA aren’t as loyal as they used to be. I believe Egypt sold weapons to Russia last year. This makes it harder for them (thinking of Egypt & Jordan here) to ask Biden for a more balanced positioning.



This is a bad calculus nonetheless. The real war (against China) is yet to come and it will be a long one (Cold War, trade war… )

In that war, we (the global West) are gonna need all our allies on our side. Both Israelis and Arabs are supposed to be on our side when the time comes. It is in our interests to deescalte the Israeli-Palestinian conflict (go back to Oslo level) to the point where all in the Middle East can work together with us, instead of having a large part of the Middle East (Yemen, Lebanon, Syria…with Iran behind them) working against us and our Arab allies (Egypt and KSA??) staying neutral.

I'll fill this in with some numbers from the Jewish Electorate Institute.

• Jewish voters hold extremely negative views toward Donald Trump, and they continue to provide Biden overwhelming margins over Trump. Biden leads Trump 68 to 22 percent in a 2024 match-up. 77 percent have an unfavorable view of Trump.
• American Jews do not believe criticism of Israeli policy means someone is not pro-Israel. 91 percent think someone can be critical of government policy and still be pro-Israel. 76 percent think someone can be critical of how Israel is conducting the war with Hamas and still be pro-Israel.

There's clearly some room to maneuver here.

Should have qualified my post by stating that the worry about losing votes is germane specifically to this election. Biden won by so few votes in swing states in 2020 that any appreciable shift in the Jewish vote to abstain or stay home could be disastrous. He does enjoy a good deal of loyalty within that bloc, no doubt, & in the long run, losing the fiscal support of the benefactors would be more impactful, there can be no bleed off on votes this election especially if those pro-Palestinian voters (thinking specifically of Michigan) hold his feet to the fire & abstain or protest vote.

 

[Beachryan]

He’s such a monumental bellend. What an awful statement. Why’s he so scared of Israel / Bibi? Really boggles the mind.

Out of interest where are you from, if you don't mind? Because to me, as someone who has lived in the States and follows US politics, that's about as categoric as you can possibly expect from the President of the US.

What did you expect him to say exactly, and perhaps you can quote official western leaders' comments as examples? I know the Irish have been pretty vocal, but that's more less it, especially from the 'major' powers.

I see nothing in there that is pandering or fearful of Netanyahu. If he was, he certainly wouldn't of Tweeted at all. The view that Hamas did what it did on October 7th as a reaction to the Israel/SA dealings and its generally decreasing relevance is hardly a controversial view - I've seen it from many experts on the region.

Biden in the end doesn't want to be dealing with any of this - it only harms his chances of re-election and to delivering his agenda. From everything anyone is saying the US is very much leading the efforts with Qatar of facilitating ceasefires, and ending this as soon as possible.

IMO all those that think somehow the US could have stopped Netanyahu before he retaliated...nothing I've seen, read or heard indicates that was a possiblity other than wishful thinking. Indeed, the Biden camp mentioned for the first time conditioning aid to Israel - a good step in teh right direction.

 

[R'hllor]

He’s such a monumental bellend. What an awful statement. Why’s he so scared of Israel / Bibi? Really boggles the mind.

He is not scared at all, he is having their back and providing support while they committing all gentlemen non barbaric actions against tunnels

 

[Idxomer]

Their terrorism never stops.

 

[Belisarius]

https://apnews.com/article/artifici...tion-ai-gaza-a1bb303b637ffbbb9cbc3aa1e000db47

This is a link to an article on how artificial intelligence is being used to create wartime propaganda. Please remember when you see highly emotionally charged content that the first casualty of war is the truth. All reports claiming bad behavior by the other side during wartime should initially be treated with extreme skepticism. Reports that are unaccompanied by evidence or that contain supposed evidence that can be easily fabricated or modified and that has not been reviewed by credible third parties should not be trusted.

 

[Traub]

https://apnews.com/article/artifici...tion-ai-gaza-a1bb303b637ffbbb9cbc3aa1e000db47

This is a link to an article on how artificial intelligence is being used to create wartime propaganda. Please remember when you see highly emotionally charged content that the first casualty of war is the truth. All reports claiming bad behavior by the other side during wartime should initially be treated with extreme skepticism. Reports that are unaccompanied by evidence or that contain supposed evidence that can be easily fabricated or modified and that has not been reviewed by credible third parties should not be trusted.

You have come to the wrong thread, certain posters here will post any tweet they see without even bothering to finish reading the tweet provided it fits their agenda.

 

[HTG]

You have come to the wrong thread, certain posters here will post any tweet they see without even bothering to finish reading the tweet provided it fits their agenda.

And they will ignore any requests for due diligence, never realising that they are causing harm to their position.

 

[The Corinthian]

https://apnews.com/article/artifici...tion-ai-gaza-a1bb303b637ffbbb9cbc3aa1e000db47

This is a link to an article on how artificial intelligence is being used to create wartime propaganda. Please remember when you see highly emotionally charged content that the first casualty of war is the truth. All reports claiming bad behavior by the other side during wartime should initially be treated with extreme skepticism. Reports that are unaccompanied by evidence or that contain supposed evidence that can be easily fabricated or modified and that has not been reviewed by credible third parties should not be trusted.

You have come to the wrong thread, certain posters here will post any tweet they see without even bothering to finish reading the tweet provided it fits their agenda.

Deepfakes, AI, what-have-you aside (although I don't think that applies to the video posted by Idxomer), Israel's actions and behaviour is reprehensible and should be called out for what it is - an apartheid racist state. The sooner it's dismantled and replaced by a pluralistic government that provides equal footing for Palestinians, the better.

 

[Raoul]

https://apnews.com/article/artifici...tion-ai-gaza-a1bb303b637ffbbb9cbc3aa1e000db47

This is a link to an article on how artificial intelligence is being used to create wartime propaganda. Please remember when you see highly emotionally charged content that the first casualty of war is the truth. All reports claiming bad behavior by the other side during wartime should initially be treated with extreme skepticism. Reports that are unaccompanied by evidence or that contain supposed evidence that can be easily fabricated or modified and that has not been reviewed by credible third parties should not be trusted.

This isn't particularly surprising given there's a social media information war going on between both sides, which means there's likely to be a lot of false information put out. Its doubly sketchy given there are virtually no journalists in Gaza, which limits a more comprehensive picture of what is transpiring there to be revealed.

 

[Belisarius]

You have come to the wrong thread, certain posters here will post any tweet they see without even bothering to finish reading the tweet provided it fits their agenda.

And they will ignore any requests for due diligence, never realising that they are causing harm to their position.

Well I tried to point it out relating to specific posts the other day but Raoul deleted my posts and told me I couldn't do that. So, I thought I might be able to post a more general reminder to people to be wary of what they believe.

 

[Raoul]

Well I tried to point it out relating to specific posts the other day but Raoul deleted my posts and told me I couldn't do that. So, I thought I might be able to post a more general reminder to people to be wary of what they believe.

You can say anything you want as long as it adheres to the thread guidelines posted below.

 

[That_Bloke]

https://apnews.com/article/artifici...tion-ai-gaza-a1bb303b637ffbbb9cbc3aa1e000db47

This is a link to an article on how artificial intelligence is being used to create wartime propaganda. Please remember when you see highly emotionally charged content that the first casualty of war is the truth. All reports claiming bad behavior by the other side during wartime should initially be treated with extreme skepticism. Reports that are unaccompanied by evidence or that contain supposed evidence that can be easily fabricated or modified and that has not been reviewed by credible third parties should not be trusted.

Does the video posted just above your comment look like a deep fake that should be treated with extreme skepticism?

Still I agree with your general sentiment.

This isn't particularly surprising given there's an social media information war going on between both sides, which means there's likely to be a lot of false information put out. Its doubly sketchy given there are virtually no journalists in Gaza, which limits a more comprehensive picture of what is transpiring there to be revealed.

There actually are some and the only source of information, when they're not getting killed alongside their families by night airstrikes or a missile while driving. I understand that them being Palestinians and susceptible of giving a slightly different view can be a problem for some people. The core of the issue is that Israel doesn't let any foreign journalist into Gaza if they're not "embedded" in the IDF, so they can have their tour in Disneyland.

 

[Belisarius]

You can say anything you want as long as it adheres to the thread guidelines posted below.

I recognize you have a very difficult task in trying to police a thread on a topic as emotionally charged as this one. I certainly wouldn't want to try and do it.

 

[Idxomer]

Does the video posted just above your comment look like a deep fake that should be treated with extreme skepticism?

Think it's a coincidence he posted that just right after this video.

Anyway, I didn't post it till I saw it from more than one source. There's actually another angle for this murder.

Two children were killed today in the west bank where people are also being terrorised every day.

 

[Pintu]

Apparently this kid was charged with “social media incitement” because she posted pics of the Palestine flag.

 

[That_Bloke]

Think it's a coincidence he posted that just right after this video.

Anyway, I didn't post it till I saw it from more than one source. There's actually another angle for this murder.

Two children were killed today in the west bank where people are also being terrorised every day.

Oh, I'm fully aware of that. There's also been a significant number of tweets hastily posted in this thread from very questionable sources and I find them incredibly damaging to the discussion. There are (or were) also posters who also don't give a single one about what's happening to the Gazans and the West Bank right now, which is a large scale massacre, and try to downplay the whole thing, often by referring to these dubious posts. It's not directed at the poster I replied to, just to be clear.

As for the second part, l am sure that you did due dilligence before posting it. I am also personally not surprised at all. The IDF is one of the worst armies in the world when it comes to RoE, especially when it comes to the Palestinians. It has a history of sniping children. They don't consider Palestinians as human beings, it's ingrained in their mentality and they act accordingly.

 

[Giggsyking]

Their terrorism never stops.

He was only 9 years old. I just saw pictures of him. The poor child.

Murderers, portray themselves as defenders of democracy.

 

[Giggsyking]

https://apnews.com/article/artifici...tion-ai-gaza-a1bb303b637ffbbb9cbc3aa1e000db47

This is a link to an article on how artificial intelligence is being used to create wartime propaganda. Please remember when you see highly emotionally charged content that the first casualty of war is the truth. All reports claiming bad behavior by the other side during wartime should initially be treated with extreme skepticism. Reports that are unaccompanied by evidence or that contain supposed evidence that can be easily fabricated or modified and that has not been reviewed by credible third parties should not be trusted.

Look at the video above your post. Double check for deep fake, or maybe the unpleasant truth about the criminal organization that is called the IDF makes it hard to do it?

Everybody here is intelligent enough to tell what is believable or not. Nobody needs your "advice" to understand the conflict.

 

[Giggsy PO]

Well I tried to point it out relating to specific posts the other day but Raoul deleted my posts and told me I couldn't do that. So, I thought I might be able to post a more general reminder to people to be wary of what they believe.

Good job. Please continue in effort to shape the discussion here for the better.

 

[Belisarius]

Look at the video above your post. Double check for deep fake, or maybe the unpleasant truth about the criminal organization that is called the IDF makes it hard to do it?

Everybody here is intelligent enough to tell what is believable or not. Nobody needs your "advice" to understand the conflict.

That's a very disturbing video at a gut level. I don't know how to double check a video for "deep fake". Can you explain the method you use?

As for your second sentence, it's difficult to know how to reply politely so all I'll say is those most in need of advice are usually those least likely to accept it.

 

[The Corinthian]

Shooting dead two 9 year old kids in the West Bank. That’s the reality for Palestinians before October 7th.

 

[Amir]

Their terrorism never stops.

That's terrible. There's no excuse.

 

[adexkola]

I'll fill this in with some numbers from the Jewish Electorate Institute.

• Jewish voters hold extremely negative views toward Donald Trump, and they continue to provide Biden overwhelming margins over Trump. Biden leads Trump 68 to 22 percent in a 2024 match-up. 77 percent have an unfavorable view of Trump.
• American Jews do not believe criticism of Israeli policy means someone is not pro-Israel. 91 percent think someone can be critical of government policy and still be pro-Israel. 76 percent think someone can be critical of how Israel is conducting the war with Hamas and still be pro-Israel.

There's clearly some room to maneuver here.

American Jews aren't the problem.

Those nutty Evangelicals on the other hand... I'd love to see a similar breakdown for them.

 

[calodo2003]

He’s such a monumental bellend. What an awful statement. Why’s he so scared of Israel / Bibi? Really boggles the mind.

Not just him...

 

[The Corinthian]

Not just him...

Bonkers. So what’s the practical implication of this? If you criticise Israel in the US you can get arrested?

 

[Giggsyking]

Not just him...

A farce of a vote. US politicians are really ignorants. Imagine putting laws preventing criticism of a movement.

Edit, I cant find the vote or the resolution anywhere other than the tweet, is their a link to the actual resolution?

 

[calodo2003]

Clarification of the vote...

@calodo2003 Vote was framed wrongly by twitter account you posted.


Reaffirming the State of Israel’s right to exist.

Resolved, That the House of Representatives—

(1) reaffirms the State of Israel’s right to exist;

(2) recognizes that denying Israel’s right to exist is a form of antisemitism;
(3) rejects calls for Israel’s destruction and the elimination of the only Jewish State; and
(4) condemns the Hamas-led terrorist attack on Israel.

That's all it says. Massie is an idiot and Tlaib is just Tlaib.

Thanks @owlo .

 

[RedTiger]

Not just him...

1 no and 1 present, fecking hell man!

 

[berbatrick]

Bonkers. So what’s the practical implication of this? If you criticise Israel in the US you can get arrested?

It's a resolution, and the US still has the 1st amendment, so no arrests.
But Germany passed a similar no-binding resolution and had been cancelling talks, defunding institutes, and firing sportsmen.
This resolution officially means that calling for a 1-state solution is anti-semitic, if they applied the logic, calling it colonial and saying you want decolonisation is anti-semitic, and I would guess this would be used to target federal university funding, etc. (Trump tried to cut funding for my previous university because it had a Palestine studies professor or something like that).

 

[Giggsyking]

 

[Giggsyking]

The "free world" against the resolution or should we say more accurately "colonial powers".

 

[Frosty]

The "free world" against the resolution or should we say more accurately "colonial powers".

Even more accurately, 'some' colonial powers. Most colonial powers abstained. And two voted in favour.

 

[VorZakone]

 

[Pintu]

Tonight, the cornerstone is laid in the Gaza Strip for the settlement "Ofir" named after the former head of the Negev Gate Council, the late Ofir Liebstein, who was murdered by Hamas. Ofir was a leader, a man of the Land of Israel, a man of construction, a man of settlement. Children will grow up here And girls who will be educated about his contribution, his heroism and his sacrifice. We will restore the settlements, expand the settlements and add more settlements. The wheat will grow again.

(Photo: Kobi Gideon, L.A.M.)



Can this be real?

 

[2cents]

Tonight, the cornerstone is laid in the Gaza Strip for the settlement "Ofir" named after the former head of the Negev Gate Council, the late Ofir Liebstein, who was murdered by Hamas. Ofir was a leader, a man of the Land of Israel, a man of construction, a man of settlement. Children will grow up here And girls who will be educated about his contribution, his heroism and his sacrifice. We will restore the settlements, expand the settlements and add more settlements. The wheat will grow again.

(Photo: Kobi Gideon, L.A.M.)



Can this be real?

I would assume something is lost in (google) translation there. He has been visiting the communities attacked on 7th October today, I'd guess he's most likely referring to rebuilding and expanding those communities.

(Edit): See here - https://www.timesofisrael.com/sever...efuse-to-send-reps-to-meeting-with-netanyahu/

 

[Giggsyking]

 

[VorZakone]