Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

Amir said:
It would have been true if they had far fewer hostages. But they have 136 (of whom about 25 are declared dead by Israel), so they've got a lot of leverage and can easily lose a few.

Right now, the Israeli govenment is showing no signs that it is willing to stop the war in order to release hostages. The deaths of some, however, may push the govenment - or push people in Israel to push the govenment - to compromise before others lose their lives.
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That's still not an objectively large number when you contrast it to the sheer number of Palestinian prisoners who Hamas will be looking to broker a release for in exchange for Israeli hostages.

Frankly I think the incident with those half naked Israelis waving a white flag with Hebrew on it only to be gunned down by the IDF, coupled to the friendly fire incidents on October 7th has outlined how feasible it is that Israel has killed many of its own during this campaign.

But again in all this madness who knows who or what has killed them.
 
Kaos said:
That's still not an objectively large number when you contrast it to the sheer number of Palestinian prisoners who Hamas will be looking to broker a release for in exchange for Israeli hostages.
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About a decade ago, Hamas released one Israeli soldier for about 1,000 prisoners, including Sinwar. In previous deals, Israel always released many more prisoners than the number of people (or bodies) it received. So Hamas has room to maneuver because it's clear the scale will not change here. Also, it's possible that it has other priorities and is willing to accept less than the release of all its prisoners.
 
Dirty Schwein said:
Say what? Are you one of those people that think this war started on October 7th and on that day, Hamas woke up and decided it was a perfect day to commit some terror?
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He is. Has his own worldview and won't allow facts to get in the way of how he feels.
 
Dirty Schwein said:
Say what? Are you one of those people that think this war started on October 7th and on that day, Hamas woke up and decided it was a perfect day to commit some terror?
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Even your claim is much more reasonable. "Hamas started this war on October 7th" is very different than "Hamas is 100% responsible for everything that is happening in Gaza."

There is no moral, ethical, practical system anywhere in which "he started it" removes your agency and absolves you of all responsibility.
 
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maniak said:
Not really, someone posted the definition of genocide in this thread a while ago and israel's actions fit perfectly.

I can't even imagine the twisted thought process someone goes through to somehow convince themselves that murdering tens of thousands of innocent civilians is somehow self defense.
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And yet that is exactly what everyone has done for all the other wars. For example 1 million dead in Iraq, 432 thousand civilians, millions more died of the effects of war i.e. malnutrition etc Note - The numbers may not be accurate but what is accurate is that its a sht load.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
Even your claim is much more reasonable. "Hamas started this war on October 7th" is very different than "Hamas is 100% responsible for everything that is happening in Gaza."

There is no moral, ethical, practical system anywhere in which "he started it" removes your agency and absolves you of all responsibility.
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And here I thought that poster was being sarcastic :lol:
 
UpWithRivers said:
And yet that is exactly what everyone has done for all the other wars. For example 1 million dead in Iraq, 432 thousand civilians, millions more died of the effects of war i.e. malnutrition etc Note - The numbers may not be accurate but what is accurate is that its a sht load.
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Not everyone, I was out protesting in lisbon with 100k people. I'm sure hundreds of millions around the world felt the same.
 
UpWithRivers said:
And yet that is exactly what everyone has done for all the other wars. For example 1 million dead in Iraq, 432 thousand civilians, millions more died of the effects of war i.e. malnutrition etc Note - The numbers may not be accurate but what is accurate is that its a sht load.
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Define everyone.
 
RedSky said:
Didn't some of the released Israeli hostages claim that Israel air strikes almost killed them? It's really not hard to believe, Israel really doesn't give a shit about the hostages. They're used as pawns for their desire to land grab. If they did care about the hostages they wouldn't be blowing up the city and instead be deploying all their troops on the ground to minimise risk to the hostages.

You'd have to be pretty stupid to think that airstrikes were helping the hostages.
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There's been a certain number Israelis killed on 10/7 either through tank shelling, cross-fire, or deliberate strikes from the IDF, according to the "Hannibal doctrine" that would rather have their own people killed alongside their kidnappers than be taken hostages. The exact number is unknown but I'm certain that there will be an Israeli commission after the war to determine how many Israeli citizens were killed by their own forces that day. Just be clear, I'm in now way questioning the fact that Hamas did commit atrocities or deliberately target civilians. The videos and eye witnesses are more than enough to dismiss such claims.

The insane airstrikes carried out every single day since 10/7 by the IDF have most certainly contributed to the hostage death toll and it's been clear from day one that hostage rescuing was never a priority. The IDF managed to save one hostage in their 3 months long military campaign and shoot dead three others, which is quite an amazing feat, really.

People also forget that the while Israeli airforce is indeed one of the best in the world, aside from highly trained brigades like the Golani one, their army is mostly composed of conscripts with all that it entails. Very good at humiliating, brutalizing and killing unarmed Palestinians, as well as sniping children and women, but not quite as efficient when it comes to confronting an armed enemy that's willing to fight back. The amount of Israeli casualties caused by friendly fire is for example unusually high.

In consequence, and to avoid an inevitable blowback at home in case of an unacceptable body bag count, they chose to literally flatten Gaza, civilian deaths and hostages be damned, in the hope that it would reduce the risk for their own ground troops.
 
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Amir said:
It's terrible. Two days ago Hamas posted a video of three hostages talking, and promised to reveal their fate the following day. Yesterday they did that, showing a video of one of the hostages still alive and talking - and the bodies of the other two, who they claim died in IDF airforce attacks.

This govenment is terrible. Between the political turmoil in Israel in recent years and the war, it's like the perfect storm.
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I truly feel sorry for them. Just like the Gazansans, it's been three months in hell on Earth for them, and I hope that all of the hostages who are still alive will make it.

Netanyahu is on borrowed time and I hope to see the day where he's thrown in prison for the rest of his life. But I think that you have a massive problem with the extremists in his government. These aren't going away anytime soon.
 
UpWithRivers said:
Ok not everyone. But a vast majority. You know what I meant
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I take your point that it's very common to seek to justify your team's actions and to ignore evidence to the contrary but the bolded just isn't true, at least for the UK. Polling at the time of the Iraq war shows that about 55% supported an invasion (before the horrors of it became clear). I don't think "vast majority" is an apt description of that percentage. It is, however, an accurate description of the 82% of Israeli Jewish respondents who replied that the IDF should show "fairly small consideration" (41%) or have "no regard at all"(40%) for the suffering of the civilian population of Gaza.

The parallel you are trying to draw isn't particularly strong.
 
That_Bloke said:
Netanyahu is on borrowed time and I hope to see the day where he's thrown in prison for the rest of his life. But I think that you have a massive problem with the extremists in his government. These aren't going away anytime soon.
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Unfortunately the war would have only strengthened the extremists. Not to the stage where they take leadership themselves, but it will give them more control over any future govenment that includes them - and they already have quite a bit of power over Netanyahu as it is.

If we'd gone to general elections now, Netanyahu would have lost and the new govenment would not have included the extremists. But there's no sign of that happening, as Netanyahu will never cede his role and most if not all his coalition members have no interest in holding new elections. So this govenment could stay on, theoretically, for three more years (it won't, not the full term anyway). And by the time the next elections are held, who knows. People's memories are short.

As for Netanyahu, I doubt he'll ever spend a day in prison. And if he's on borrowed time, he'll still fight tooth and nails to maintain his role.
 
Giggsyking said:
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This thread could be filled with pro-Palestine people or even some who showed some semblance of sympathy and have lost their jobs in the last 104 days because of their stance. Others also lost some opportunities because of it and I'm sure there are many more who are scared to voice their opinion.
 
UpWithRivers said:
Ok not everyone. But a vast majority. You know what I meant
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I think probably most people are just focused on their own issues, so indifference is probably the most prevalent feeling. Actively supporting horrible things is quite a different thing.
 
Amar__ said:
I didn't know they had the right to vote on these stuff in these modern Western Countries. Oh wait!
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Trouble is, most people don't vote on stuff like this. They vote on a combination of many issues, often mostly domestic/economic ones.
 
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langster said:
A state of what? According to some reports as much as 70% of Gaza residencies have been completely destroyed and many homes in the West Bank are being stolen from their Palestinian owners by Israeli settlers every day.
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Don't forget the looting of banks and homes in Gaza.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
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I ridicule all the "fact-checkers" that this topic has had at that time, because writing was on the wall about what they were going to do. But sure, believe the free western press, dismiss anything outside as conspiracy theory and there you go.
 




163 killed in the last 24 hours while the cnuts in the US keep talking about lower-intensity operations.
 


72-11 :lol:
10 Dems (Sanders, Warren, Merkley, some others), and Rand Paul.

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